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Thread: Will space PvP damage change ?
xTekx
Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:39 am
#40
JamesBenson wrote:
Lower space pvp damage by 60%.
Wow! If the devs did this no one would die ever. I mean, I know I would become invincible and a bunch of other people would to. Your suggestion would solve nothing other than to make fights last indefinately.
quadpers0n
Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:50 am
#41
also it does nothing to solve the problems MP ships experience. lower dmg by 60% and i'll still kill everyone in a shot or two shots because i have fast 4800dmg guns. lower it by 80% and i'll still kill everyone in 2 shots. lighter ships? they'll take 10 shots to kill me. heavy ships but without good guns, 4-8 shots shots.
and in the end, 3-5 shot pvp will generally go as fast as current pvp and we will just hear a new salvo of complaints from players who have not put forth the effort to understand and embrace the system. then we'll see the same threads about 10 shot pvp. then that will be too fast. "1 shot pvp is not fun" is a mantra that will send JTL into a downward spiral and the broad majority of it's proponents are players who tried it once or twice and quit, with RARE exception.
right now there is parity, you can use any ship. someone please explain to me the use of a kihraxz or interceptor in a PVP damage reduced system. to date, from all these threads complaining, i have not seen 1 single person explain to me what role a ship that can only efficiently equip lower level guns would have.
right now equipment takes a back seat to situational awareness, manuverability and aim. people who want damage reduction (as opposed to another, fairer method of achieving 3-5 shot pvp) are subversively requesting replicating the absurdity of the ground game in the sky. they'll deny it, but that is EXACTLY what they are doing.
if you want 3-5 shot pvp there are plenty of threads out there advocating alternatives that don't dramatically break the game for casual gamers and shift things completely in favor of pilots like me with fast weapons with low energy cost that apporach 5k damage. everyone advocating damage reduction should do themselves a favor and start thinking about that and reading those threads. not doing that and continuing to blather about reduction will do nothing but disservice everyone who flies.
and maybe before you decry current pvp you could get out there and DODGE. you do realize that our laser bolts work on the same principal as the enemy NPCs don't you? do you guys not dodge any of those? no wonder people keep posting about their difficulty in soloing this or that. you do realize that you can go up down right and left and you don't have to make every pvp encounter a slow game of chicken?
what is it exactly that you people want? to charge the enemy head on in a straight line and have both of you hit until the person with the strongest guns win? like some perverse masochistic joust? circle mindlessly for minutes relying entirely on engine stats or banking on the opposing player not understanding how roll works in combination with turning? you want to be oblivious in space while exploiting gunboat vulnerabilities, get shot in the back 3 or 4 times and be able to turn around and still win? why do people want to be rewarded for being oblivious? nobody sneaks up on me, EVER. why? because i understand how deep space works. i go there, i reset the zone, i stay 2048km from the base and when a dot blips on the radar that shouldnt be there I KNOW IT. "target next enemy player" is mapped to button by my thumb and if i hear lasers firing at me i hit it reflexively. you do you know that you can hear everything being shot in a 500m radius right? you hear guns that sound funny you juke and hit the button and turn on the guy coming at you. i do it all the time and out of 40 encounters i have not died due to surprise since week 2 of release. if i did i would certainly blame myself before blaming the game.
so people think that kind of awareness shouldn't be rewarded? funny that people without these skills are the ones decrying their importance. i haven't seen anyone say "man i know everything that is going on and if there's a blip that's on the radar i know it, but you know what? i'd rather not have to worry about any of that. i'd rather have a warning pop up on my screen saying "enemy player about to attack you!" or better yet "enemy player loaded in the zone, better hyperspace away now!"
people who love pvp go up anyway and participate and find that despite the problems with the current system it can be a ton of fun. they find that after 30 or 40 fights they realize that not all of them ended in one shot. let me tell you this, the first time you circle an opponent miss and get missed your heart will POUND. why? because you know that if that bolt hits you you'll be dead. because you know that if he so much as points in your direction you'll be in trouble. the first time you play chicken with an enemy player, start firing and immediately juke under his guns only to see him run directly into your fire you'll realize how important and exhilirating split second decisions can be. reduce damage? oh yay, we charged each other, i put a fantastic move on the pilot and the reward for my reflexes? a shield stunt and an ensuing run around in circles. so now we have a twitch game that does not reward reflexes and does not reward situational awareness. sounds like a heck of a twitch game doesnt it?
try some pvp with level 1 guns. do you worry about getting hit? no. you worry about shield stunting, you frustratingly circle as he frustratingly circles. is there dogfighting? please, a constant roundabout is not dogfighting, show me someone who gets in a loop de loop then turns any other direction but in the direction of his target. it doesn't happen. joy. excitement and danger replaced by mediocrity. dogfighting is getting position and firing. dogfighting is not circling while rolling for two minutes holding down the trigger.
if you want to fix the way things are, go read about ideas to modify shields making pvp 2-4 hits for everyone. go read about ideas to fix the absurdities that face MP ships that would continue long after a damage reduction system, and go read about how pvp doesn't have to be the realm of being surprised and one shotted. then post.
xTekx
Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:09 am
#42
Quad, execellent post. You show you're frustration well in your examples and posts. Five stars for you. 
UPA_INTIMIDATOR
Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:30 pm
#43
/standingovation for QuadpersOn!!!!
Well said!
Xxion Intimidator
quadpers0n
Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:36 pm
#44
an example that i love to harp on, my neutral alt's kihrazx with junk components. a barely noticable shield, a level 5 gun, a RE'd post nerf reward engine (lvl 6) and everything else was off the bazaar. i think my record with that ship is something like 12 and 2. (vs tie adv, a bomber(!) oppressors and decimators)
is it the best pvp ship out there? not even close! the heavier mass ships definately fall into that category. is it viable? certainly, and in such a way that any player can outfit the ship and have fun with it and indeed win. i sure don't care about component decay in a ship like that, which is very liberating let me tell you.
for a long time on the imperial side i flew an interceptor, sacrificing 20k mass or so (from an advanced) for nothing really save looks and sound. would level 7 guns (the best i could fit) be viable after damage reduction?
i've played around with the numbers and i'm convinced i could make a viable tie fighter the way things work now. A TIE FIGHTER! using a damage reduction system there is no way those ships would ever be viable, it would be simply impossible, unless other modifications were made to make them viable.(I have to stress that I'm talking about damage reductions' drawbacks NOT drawbacks to another mechanic enabling 3-5 hit pvp which i support)
EDIT: i didn't adress all of your post mons. do I think the heavy bomber ships are viable? eh. they are viable, i've killed plenty of people in the krayt but it wouldn't be my first choice of something to fly.
but why? is it because they are big and slow? or is it because there's no real role in this game for a heavy bomber ship? if there was a role for them would heavy fighters automatically be superior in that role? why and what can change to fix that? well as for roles, i think the improvements we've requested for the MP ships would fix that, as for the second part, that's a can of worms i don't have a solution to... missle changes, ordinance amount changes... i dunno.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 03-04-2005 11:59 AM
MonsofoLexius
Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:05 pm
#45
JamesBenson wrote:
We'd use weapons at 60% damage reduction and you'd see that you are FAR from invincible.
It is true that with a shipwright we DO have the power to test this all out. I'd love to see people on both sides of the "damage reduction" issue take some time, have some fun and do something like:
- No WO3, WO2 would be ok
- Try a few levels of gun damage
- Do some PvP in groups and Mono-Y-Mono
I would be really interested in hearing what both sides think on this. I know that there would be more to it then a simple "ya XX% is about right" because the less damage the more the differences in ships show up, but still interested in the feeling on this.
/waves hand
"Republic credits will be fine"
quadpers0n
Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:31 pm
#46
clarification of damage reduction vs another mechanic:
another mechanic would include (eaca's and vidius' ideai believe, my apologies if i am wrong) idea of shields acting like deflector shields and deflecting damage but not absorbing damage. this would allow lower level weapons to still be viable but also make pvp not a one shot affair for insane damage level 10 guns. i'm not sure how polished the idea was, it seemed fairly polished, but it'd probably have to be looked over a few more times. in a way i suppose it's like mitigation somewhat.
of course, as stated, this is different from flat damage reduction as that reduces everyone's effectiveness, except the people at the top. to prevent pvp from being 1 hit in my ship you'd have to reduce damage to the tune of 80% or so. imagine reducing a level 5 gun by 80% it'd be a pea shooter incapable of killing anyone with a reward shield, or perhaps any shield.
when i say MP ship i mean POB ships, i don't understand the acronym so i just say MP, which is misleading yeah.
as for the bombers... yeah that's tough. i wouldn't be opposed to a level 11 cert for them but at the same time, as i said, you gotta be careful because really all ships turn at relatively the same rate, just they turn at different speeds. (if that makes any sense). a skilled pilot can make the krayt and b wing work, and give them too much of an advantage and it could come back and bite us.
that being said though, i don't have a problem with encouraging people to fly those ships even if it makes things harder for me. a cert specific to bomber class ships may do just that, and really probably wouldn't hurt anyone.i was thinking also that maybe the spacebombs could be reworked somehow. in other SW games the bombers actually bomb. in the movies you saw this as well... something to think about.
level 12 cert shields is a fabulous idea. i hope it gets in the game and gets in the game fast. i desperately want to go up against POB ships and have both sides enjoy it.
and JamesBenson, yes with 60% reduction you would be far from invincible, that is a myth. HOWEVER that is taking into account 60% reduction for a variety of high end guns.
take a level seven gun and reduce that by 60%. now you start seeing the disparity, especially when you take the same level seven gun and pit that ship up against my oppressor with 4800 dmg guns. 60% isn't going to do squat to those guns i'm afraid, and PVP will still be one shot. the only difference is now the guy who loves flying his interceptor has to land 10 shots to kill me, whereas i need 1 to kill him.
as for pvping with different varieties of guns, i've pvp'd (staged) with level 1 guns, level 3 guns and level 5 (live)guns, slow ships, fast ships, etc. vs reward shields. it's really not the godsend that people think it should be. for a good idea of what a 60% reduction would be like, PVP a bit with a mediocre level 5 gun. it's not too shabby, 3-5 hits per person. as i said above though, the problem comes when you have ships that can only fit a level 5 gun. what do they do after reduction? pvp with their now level 1 equivelant gun simply because a more fair alternative that produced 3-5 hit pvp for everyone couldn't be reached? if 3-5 hit pvp is what you want, why not back other mechanics instead of continuing to mention damage reduction?
JamesBenson
Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:26 pm
#48
I like the idea of damage mitigation/deflector shields of sorts, but isn't this somewhat of a damage reduction? Except it would depend more on hardware than on a set rate. The idea almost sounds like ground armor with a space application, if I understand what you're saying? Or would it act like ground armor except a 'layer' above the shields so that the initial damage goes to shields? I'll drop my 60% damage reduction statement, but we can all agree that something must be done to fix space pvp.
As for the issue of bombers and multiplayer ships, I seriously believe that multiplayer ships (excluding Aggressor and that Y-Wing with the turret) should have four armor layers (2 in front, 2 in back) and two shield layers (summed). They can be destroyed WAY too fast and it would be a good use of their ungodly masses since they aren't nearly effective in combat in my experience. It's hard to find good gunners for the turrets and it really takes a lot of practice. It's not like something of this size can evade very well and it seems only natural that a "sluggish", massive ship would be more heavily armored than even a bomber.
But that aside, to give them purpose you must have something for them to kill. That means you need capital ships. Presently, we are fairly limited to three capital vessels to destroy: Corellian Corvettes, Imperial Star Destroyers, and the Rebel base. I've always supported the idea of guild capital ships or even a profession that allows command of capital ships at the higher levels. Let us crew a dreadnaught or maybe even a VSD..Nebulon B Frigates or Corellian Gunships..YV-666 for neutrals even. I'd love to see some massive battles over Naboo with capital ships exchanging fire, ordering its fighters to intercept enemy bomber formations. Even if you don't agree with me about adding capital ships for players (and believe me, I have several restrictions in mind for their use), we can surely agree that it would make things interesting if the live events staff had a mon cal cruiser and support craft drop out of hyperspace in a Naboo sector and send radio comms to all rebels in Naboo space/ground to rally for the battle. Likewise, the station might send a distress signal to Imperials on the ground and in space. These kinds of events are what we need to make bombers a useful vessel for something other than 'vette runs. We need some of the GCW action to migrate into space.
As for the issue of bombers and multiplayer ships, I seriously believe that multiplayer ships (excluding Aggressor and that Y-Wing with the turret) should have four armor layers (2 in front, 2 in back) and two shield layers (summed). They can be destroyed WAY too fast and it would be a good use of their ungodly masses since they aren't nearly effective in combat in my experience. It's hard to find good gunners for the turrets and it really takes a lot of practice. It's not like something of this size can evade very well and it seems only natural that a "sluggish", massive ship would be more heavily armored than even a bomber.
But that aside, to give them purpose you must have something for them to kill. That means you need capital ships. Presently, we are fairly limited to three capital vessels to destroy: Corellian Corvettes, Imperial Star Destroyers, and the Rebel base. I've always supported the idea of guild capital ships or even a profession that allows command of capital ships at the higher levels. Let us crew a dreadnaught or maybe even a VSD..Nebulon B Frigates or Corellian Gunships..YV-666 for neutrals even. I'd love to see some massive battles over Naboo with capital ships exchanging fire, ordering its fighters to intercept enemy bomber formations. Even if you don't agree with me about adding capital ships for players (and believe me, I have several restrictions in mind for their use), we can surely agree that it would make things interesting if the live events staff had a mon cal cruiser and support craft drop out of hyperspace in a Naboo sector and send radio comms to all rebels in Naboo space/ground to rally for the battle. Likewise, the station might send a distress signal to Imperials on the ground and in space. These kinds of events are what we need to make bombers a useful vessel for something other than 'vette runs. We need some of the GCW action to migrate into space.
MasterSad
Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:07 pm
#49
I just guess that 1 shot hits for SP ships (MP ships do need higher cert equipment) wouldn't be that much of a problem if landing that 1 shot would more more of a challenge by making ship speeds faster.
xTekx
Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:00 pm
#50
Ok James, first off, if you're implying that I "1-starred" you on your statement then you're dead wrong. I dont' give out many ratings, and each time I have given one it's been 5 stars. Don't believe me check my bio and avg rating given.
Second, I have pvp'd with lower level weapons. I have an alt that is 3322 and flys an interceptor. That is by far my most favorite ship. Soon as I got the TI I slapped on a lvl 5 weapon and went out hunting my guildies for fun, whom i know run overt in space. Even other people i've run into. With the lvl 5 weapon it took me anywhere from 3-6 hits to kill them. 3 on a good day, 6 if it was a decent pilot. Now if that 60% reduction hits(and I saw you drop the argument), my little lvl 5 wouldn't be able to kill ppl fast enough before they a) hit shield shunt or b) their shields recharged naturally because it took so long between hits. My interceptor would then be pretty useless. If I was in my Xwing I know I could take close to 10-12 hits from a lvl 5 reduced by 60%. Why? Because there is no way anyone is going to get 10 hits on me. By that time that person would be dead. Anyways...
I would take your challenge had I already not created a character on Starsider for those massive space battles. Too many characters to keep track of. If you want to challenge me, come there. Then we'll both be on equal ground. Win or lose I will enjoy the battle because I love to pvp in space. Its the thrill.
Sifer2
Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:15 pm
#51
Well yes JTLS has serious PvP balance issues. Anyone who would disagree to that is being silly. Right now combat is basically just like it was on the ground with SWG launched. People were glass cannons an died in two or three shots. They eventually tried fixing by adding in a 75% PvP damage reduction. Only problem is it was a Band-Aid fix an not a real rebalance. This allows Buff's an Armor to unbalance the situation an screw it up again too. JTLS is basically repeating history all over again. NPC's are way stronger than us an our Weapons do ass loads of damage. Combine this with bugged things like Weapon Overload 3 an the ability to trade droid commands between professions an you have a big mess.
Even in a twitch based game one shot kills are not exceptable unless the type of attack is VERY hard to pull off or fairly easy to avoid. In JTLS hitting your opponent isnt that hard with rapid fire lasers. Even easier for Rebels/Privateers since they get multiple guns. So yes things need to be revamped. Droid Commands need to be looked at and PvP damage should be adjusted so that two people flying toward each other flying wont instantly be able to kill each other. Fully drain the front shields an damage the Front Armor maybe. But if the fights over before it can even begin its not really fun.
TomoRainer
Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:15 pm
#52
Yes, but in the ground game, your shots land automatically. Yeah, there's misses, but how often? 50%, even at novice marksman? Here's a rundown of Starsider's last space brawl:
6-8 ships on a side, a little prep work for the big event tomorrow. Got our side together and hypered to Dath, where en route to our patrol point we encountered the Rebel force. We closed from 2km out: I swung in behind an X-Wing and killed him with a missile and a couple blaster shots.
Then I somehow found myself on the tail of one of the server's true Rebel aces and had a good laugh trying to land a single hit. We circled for 20-30 seconds, during which time I fired four missiles at him, at least three of which hit. From talking with him afterward, I believe the last of these disabled his weapons, leading him to break off and try to boost away. I gave chase and eventually shot him from behind, counting my lucky stars I'd been on his six first.
At this point there were 3-4 TIEs left against one A-Wing, with me 1.5-2km out from the battle. I boosted in and even after locking on his tail with all the others it took us 60-90 seconds to drop him (during which time he may have killed one of us--hard to tell). It took the better part of a minute just to land a single shot, which dropped his shields to 60-something percent; an immediate shield shunt restored them to 90%, but at this point we started to hone in and landed two more shots over the next 10-15 seconds, disabling him. One final blast ended the skirmish, but it took 4 hits to kill a single light fighter, and in that time we may well have fired 200-400 shots each, for a total fire count of 1000-1500. We're not exactly fresh into space, either. These are some seasoned space PVP veterans.
It's not at all easy to hit a good pilot in a good ship. It's certainly not comparable to the way ground PVP used to be. It may need a little more balancing, but it's much, much closer to the ideal than you may currently believe.
Edit: I should also mention I got shot in this battle (I think it was while we were all chasing that last A-Wing around) and my flimsy Interceptor shields soaked it all without any damage to armor or components.
6-8 ships on a side, a little prep work for the big event tomorrow. Got our side together and hypered to Dath, where en route to our patrol point we encountered the Rebel force. We closed from 2km out: I swung in behind an X-Wing and killed him with a missile and a couple blaster shots.
Then I somehow found myself on the tail of one of the server's true Rebel aces and had a good laugh trying to land a single hit. We circled for 20-30 seconds, during which time I fired four missiles at him, at least three of which hit. From talking with him afterward, I believe the last of these disabled his weapons, leading him to break off and try to boost away. I gave chase and eventually shot him from behind, counting my lucky stars I'd been on his six first.
At this point there were 3-4 TIEs left against one A-Wing, with me 1.5-2km out from the battle. I boosted in and even after locking on his tail with all the others it took us 60-90 seconds to drop him (during which time he may have killed one of us--hard to tell). It took the better part of a minute just to land a single shot, which dropped his shields to 60-something percent; an immediate shield shunt restored them to 90%, but at this point we started to hone in and landed two more shots over the next 10-15 seconds, disabling him. One final blast ended the skirmish, but it took 4 hits to kill a single light fighter, and in that time we may well have fired 200-400 shots each, for a total fire count of 1000-1500. We're not exactly fresh into space, either. These are some seasoned space PVP veterans.
It's not at all easy to hit a good pilot in a good ship. It's certainly not comparable to the way ground PVP used to be. It may need a little more balancing, but it's much, much closer to the ideal than you may currently believe.
Edit: I should also mention I got shot in this battle (I think it was while we were all chasing that last A-Wing around) and my flimsy Interceptor shields soaked it all without any damage to armor or components.
Message Edited by TomoRainer on 03-04-2005 11:10 PM