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Thread: 50 years after episode1? not even?
padojenkles wrote:
Ashtirael wrote:
evil_SOCCERMOM wrote:
Washell wrote:
SU-27, most beautiful fighter plane ever built. If I was one of the lucky few flying the F-22 I'd hope like hell I would never have to take the MiG-29 or SU-27 on in a dogfight, 40 miles, AWACSguided dual AMRAAM launch and turn to make distance. Them russians build damn fine planes.
evil_SOCCERMOM wrote:
Salco wrote:
You're saying in comparison to an F-22, the MiG-29 isn't lower tech? Ooook...
No, I realize that I phrased that poorly, but the F-22 was developed in response to the Mig-29 and a Su-something. All I was trying to say was that 30 years doesn't nesscessarily make something obsolete.
True, but it was really only designed to be a competent dogfighter not a suberb one. Its role, as you said, is to take out targets from a distance using its stealth and speed to not even let the enemy know it was there. Its the same reason the F-14 and F-15 remain capable Air-superiority fighters, they can take out much more maneuverable fighters long before the target realizes they are getting shot.
Personally, I think they shoulda worked out a bit more on the X-15 design from 1959.
That sucker went into space and came back in nice and smooth.
Imagine that kind of advantage in atmospheric fights now with our radar technology. Hit the roof and keep going while keeping an atmospheric-limited jet where it can't hurt ya, line your sights up and strike with impunity.
Better yet, light it up with laser tag, hit space and launch your missile that can hit that weathervane from 300+ miles.
Yes, I'm arguing for the new equipmentin old design group.
Although, with the USAF now preparing to put laser systems that pump out a 150KW blast onto their fighters by 2007, missiles might play less of a role in air to air combat.
Message Edited by Ashtirael on 08-27-2005 11:40 PM
Sorry to burst your bubble but the X-15 was a ROCKET plane. Yes it could go fast and yes it could go high but it couldn't do it for very long because it would run out of juice. Now if a JET plane were capable of doing that like some rumers about the Aurora say it can then your plan would rock.
Right. It was a rocket plane. That was my point in this argument.
It was an old design, but think of our technology now. We have fuel that can burn hotter for a longer period of time and use less of it doing so. Not to mention composites, sensors, computer interfaces and so on.
Considering how old the design is and improvements we have made (thinking the new wing jets being designed for possible public use instead of the tube and wing design of today), apply those to that design with some mods.
All of our current tech, in general aerospace, is smaller, lighter, stronger and faster. Like JTL tech is supposed to be from decades past.
Modifying that rocket jet with all of our newer, lighter, stronger items wouldmake it formidable. After all, it's primary purpose, as far as we we told,was to discover exactly what was required to leave and reenter the Earth's atmosphere safely.
The new full body wing design is being proposed for both airlines and as a possible use in trips into space. The tests with the X15 are being used to see how that full body wing would interact. So far the tests seem to be positive with less drag coefficient, better handling than the tube and wing design and less power and thrustrequired due to mass being lowered.
For fuel, they aretrying a hydrogen slurry mix with fuel cells to create the burn required and the ability to sustain it. Of course, its all prototype/experimental crap atm, but still. Btw, that hydrogen slurry stuff is a good read, at least for a new tech geek (me 
).
Anywho, my whole point was that while the older ships with the older technology would fall easily to newer ships/newer tech, the older ships with newer tech should stay formidable.
There is one inherent problem with the analogy of Star Wars space craft tech and Earths airplane tech. We have had airplane for less than a century and were able to progress at a fairly quick pace. There have been space ships in the Star Wars galaxies for thousands of years since before the 20000 year old Old Republic. Now I'm sure there have been technological upswings and downswings through that time but to think that designs could degrade enough to make older ships better or made older ships obsolete is rediculous. What it really comes down to is the pilot and the plot device used to make that ship and pilot better.
The older ships should probably be slower with less powerfull armor/shields/weapons but still be very viable and deadly if there is a good pilot in the seat. That being said, the RotW ships do seem unbalanced in the area of mass vs. maneuverability. The JSF should be a light mass high manuverability prototype to the TIE. The Belabulb should be a little heavier a little less maneuverable and the ARC should have high mass, still less than a heavy x and a little less maneuverability than the x. The ability to add high quality components to these olderships would be the equivalent of adding new avionics etc. to our older airplanes. Yeah they will still be great fighters but they wouldn't be as good as our newer ships/planes.
When we compare stealth to older nonstealth planes its like apples to oranges. How about comparing the F-117 from the early 80s to the F-22. It beats the older stealth plane almost across the board.
padojenkles wrote:There is one inherent problem with the analogy of Star Wars space craft tech and Earths airplane tech. We have had airplane for less than a century and were able to progress at a fairly quick pace. There have been space ships in the Star Wars galaxies for thousands of years since before the 20000 year old Old Republic. Now I'm sure there have been technological upswings and downswings through that time but to think that designs could degrade enough to make older ships better or made older ships obsolete is rediculous. What it really comes down to is the pilot and the plot device used to make that ship and pilot better.
The older ships should probably be slower with less powerfull armor/shields/weapons but still be very viable and deadly if there is a good pilot in the seat. That being said, the RotW ships do seem unbalanced in the area of mass vs. maneuverability. The JSF should be a light mass high manuverability prototype to the TIE. The Belabulb should be a little heavier a little less maneuverable and the ARC should have high mass, still less than a heavy x and a little less maneuverability than the x. The ability to add high quality components to these olderships would be the equivalent of adding new avionics etc. to our older airplanes. Yeah they will still be great fighters but they wouldn't be as good as our newer ships/planes.
When we compare stealth to older nonstealth planes its like apples to oranges. How about comparing the F-117 from the early 80s to the F-22. It beats the older stealth plane almost across the board.
Thank you, that's what I've been trying to say. Technology, barring a Dark Age, is almost always advancing. And although the Empire is evil, it is certainly not a Dark Age. Therefore, it stands to reason that ships from the era that SWG is set in would be superior to Clone War era ships; not to say that Clone War era ships would be anywhere near obsolete, they just wouldn't be quite as effective.
As it stands now, the Clone War ships have an undeniable edge over the GCW era ships. A good pilot can defeat them, true, but the edge that the Clone War ships have is unbalancing, as well as inappropriate given the technology gap. The Eta-2 is small, and it's mass should reflect that; the same goes for the Belbullab-22. If you compare a Kihraxz to the Eta-2, you'll notice that the Kihraxz is quite a bit larger, but only has 40k mass. Numbers like that should make you stop and think...
evil_SOCCERMOM wrote:
Though they might run into the problem they discovered when desiging the SR-71 (fastest non-rocket plane flown, for the non plane buffs) Originally they thought about giving it a gun and other armement, but,thankefully, realized that the planes velocity exceeded that of it's bullets. Which would, essentially, cause it to fly into its own munitions. A better solution would be to have a sam-site in space. It would function almost exactly like you planed but wouldn't require a person to be in it or that pesky, B-51, assissted take off.
However, solid state/thermal laser systems (being called the HEL system)are expected to be the size of a small refrigerator, maybe smaller, by 2007. They plan on placing them inside current fighter jets to destroy incoming missiles. The expected charge is 150KW. I honestly wouldn't see an issue with a modified version of this system being installed on an SR-71 or similar attack craft.
Salco wrote:
padojenkles wrote:
There is one inherent problem with the analogy of Star Wars space craft tech and Earths airplane tech. We have had airplane for less than a century and were able to progress at a fairly quick pace. There have been space ships in the Star Wars galaxies for thousands of years since before the 20000 year old Old Republic. Now I'm sure there have been technological upswings and downswings through that time but to think that designs could degrade enough to make older ships better or made older ships obsolete is rediculous. What it really comes down to is the pilot and the plot device used to make that ship and pilot better.
The older ships should probably be slower with less powerfull armor/shields/weapons but still be very viable and deadly if there is a good pilot in the seat. That being said, the RotW ships do seem unbalanced in the area of mass vs. maneuverability. The JSF should be a light mass high manuverability prototype to the TIE. The Belabulb should be a little heavier a little less maneuverable and the ARC should have high mass, still less than a heavy x and a little less maneuverability than the x. The ability to add high quality components to these olderships would be the equivalent of adding new avionics etc. to our older airplanes. Yeah they will still be great fighters but they wouldn't be as good as our newer ships/planes.
When we compare stealth to older nonstealth planes its like apples to oranges. How about comparing the F-117 from the early 80s to the F-22. It beats the older stealth plane almost across the board.
Thank you, that's what I've been trying to say. Technology, barring a Dark Age, is almost always advancing. And although the Empire is evil, it is certainly not a Dark Age. Therefore, it stands to reason that ships from the era that SWG is set in would be superior to Clone War era ships; not to say that Clone War era ships would be anywhere near obsolete, they just wouldn't be quite as effective.
As it stands now, the Clone War ships have an undeniable edge over the GCW era ships. A good pilot can defeat them, true, but the edge that the Clone War ships have is unbalancing, as well as inappropriate given the technology gap. The Eta-2 is small, and it's mass should reflect that; the same goes for the Belbullab-22. If you compare a Kihraxz to the Eta-2, you'll notice that the Kihraxz is quite a bit larger, but only has 40k mass. Numbers like that should make you stop and think...
Actually, Ep.4 5 and 6 DO represent a technological dark age in Starwars. It is said in the novels and almost every SW tech manual and source book that the Empire imposed such rigid technological restictions and controled information about such technology so tightly that the galaxy actually lost all knowlage of a great many techonlogical advances that the old republic enjoyed.
A really good example is the hyperdrive. In the OT we see that hyperdrive jumps can take quite a while to complete, wheras in the prequels we see that (aside from the case of a leaky hyperdrive on amidala's ship) hyperdrive transit is nearly instentaneous.
Warmaker01 wrote:
Treena_Daal wrote:
No, we're complaining that they're even putting them in. We aren't paying for a game set during the Clone Wars, or the Old Republic. We want ships that reflect where we are supposed to be. There are still quite a few ships from the GCW era that we can use, there is no need to go back and use stuff from the prequels.
QF-motherf****ng-E
The Galactic Civil War
NOT
The Clone Wars
For a long time, the devs have been making prequel equipment, space and on the ground, superior to GCW / Imperial-era equipment.
The biggest insult? The JSF and B22. Completely, ridiculous... no, not ridiculous... Ludicrous stats! High speed, excellent mass, ungodly agility.
The "agile" TIE Interceptor and A-Wings are completely outclassed x2 by these craft.
i own a b-22 but personally i think it is a very stupid ship with like 50 blindspots in cockpit view and if u zoom out u get bright engines blasting u in the face, i prefer my a-wing, sure its got a lower mass but its faster than the b-22 and also i kno about the taking off the cockpit fram option but that takes away the whole role playing element of space flight. right now my two main ships are the a-wing and the advanced x-wing and i soloed the advanced x-wing quest with a junky x-wing that had such a low mass i had to use tier 2 engines and no booster or droid interface, and in the end after i finished the mission my shields were still in perfect condition. i just get sick of grinding for pilot tho, im 4/4/4/3 and its very discouraging knoin u got like 900k exp togo.
OT, but, Gooblah, take a duty mish a couple times and that 900k should pass with ease.
Of course, this is dependent on your loadout and how good of a pilot ya are and such
Bravo12 wrote:Just keep in mind, its been 20 years of Galactic war. Not much time to research and develop - just crank out competent (not the best) fighters, and lots of them, quickly. It wouldnt be unreasonable to have 50+ year-old ships that were built better, and well-maintained ones would still be very operational.
Technology had NOT come to a standstill or slowdown with the rise of the Empire and the eventual Galactic Civil War.
Even if we use the Empire alone, it made strides in technology and manufacturing that the Republic couldn't even dream of matching.
- With the plans of the Death Star from the Geonosians, the Empire built it. But it was destroyed with massive loss of personnel and resources, including a major Imperial figure, Grand Moff Tarkin. He was powerful enough to have Vader on a leash. The Empire didn't stop with this major loss. It built ANOTHER Death Star.
- Warship technology progressed leaps and bounds over the Republic's designs. The Imperator-Class Star Destroyers continue the evolution over the Star Destroyer classes. It is far larger than the Venator, carries more starfighters, transports more troops, possesses much higher firepower, greater defenses. It is also much faster, fast enough that Han Solo is concerned about an Imperator CHASING the Millenium Falcon, among the fastest ships in the galaxy. The Empire also mass produced these high quality ships.
Then there's the Executor-Class Star Destroyer. 17.6km in size, dwarfing and overpowering any warship design ever produced before.
The Republic's ships can't even compare to the common-place Imperator-Star Destroyer.
- Starfighter technology progressed. We see the continuation of short ranged, cost effective starfighters by the Empire. The V-Wing from ROTS is the first in the line. The TIEs continued the evolution. From the X-Wing series of games, we see the deadly TIE Avenger, TIE Defender, and Cygnus Spaceworks' Missile Boat.
We see from the Rebel Alliance even more strides in starfighter technology. A reliance of every starfighter being hyperdrive equipped. Better surviveability and still maintaining offensive firepower. The X-Wing continues the evolution of a starfighter design philosophy of the ARC-170 and Z-95. Not only did it continue the evolution, but the X-Wing became the benchmark against what other starfighters will be compared to.
- The Darktrooper Program, from the Jedi Knight / Dark Forces games.
- The continued evolution of the Clonetrooper program into the Stormtrooper program. Gradual improvements in armor and equipment. I will admit that the Clonetrooper officers with all the fancy gear look pretty d**n sweet, like Commander Cody (gold / white).
- Also, in practically EVERY Star Wars game in the Original Trilogy's timeframe, we see the Empire working on some nasty, evil scientific program that needs to be destroyed by the Rebel hero.
"If they can be fooled, they can be killed."