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Thread: Just a comment about all the crying about PvP or No PvP or PvE..whatever

Slarus
Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:41 am
#27


Heh..


Then, I supposePvP'ers shouldn'tplay Everquest, Everquest 2 (If you don't think they're going to add PvP sooner or later, you're crazy)WoW, FinalFantasy,The Matrix Online, (Thatis probably goingto be PvP heavy....I mean come on, look at the subject matter), DAOC, Lineage, etc, etc...


In all your examples your confusing PvP as content and no MMO uses PvP as content, PvP is not used for advancement. All MMOs start with PvE, you character gains XP does missions, etc. all PvE based, PvP is for those who want or feel the need to test their characters against another player it has always been a feature not the main core, even in games like Lineage 2.


Almost every MMO out there has some plausable PvP system to go with it's PvE content, and even one of SOE's own, Planetside, is pure PvP.


If there is advancement does it require you to for example "Shot down 5 enemy players" to get your next level or skill up or what ever, or is there just PvP out there for you to do? I have never heard of an MMO that relies on other players to advance each other.


You'd do best to get off your high horse and stop thinking that PvE is the only reason anyone should play an MMO.


Here is where your getting confused, PvE is not the ONLY reason to play an MMO, but it is what is used to make your PC stronger, better, more powerful. Every MMO that I know of uses soley PvE to advance skills, levels, loot, powerups, etc.


PvP is very much a reason to play or not play depending on how you feel about it, but it is not the core of a game it is a feature.
a1davida1
Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:07 pm
#28

You are right in saying that PvP is a feature not the core of a game. However sometimes the features are almost as good as the core. SWG without pvp for most would be like ... an oreo without cream filling, or... a porn star without large breasts.. just .. not very fullfilling.




- Davol Repsan
-Delta
Slarus
Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:47 pm
#29

You are right in saying that PvP is a feature not the core of a game. However sometimes the features are almost as good as the core. SWG without pvp for most would be like ... an oreo without cream filling, or... a porn star without large breasts.. just .. not very fullfilling.

Interesting comparisons except you and others say that PvP is broken and hardly anyone does it, so would SWG be better with it's broken PvP or no PvP?
Theu
Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:23 am
#30






Slarus wrote:

You are right in saying that PvP is a feature not the core of a game. However sometimes the features are almost as good as the core. SWG without pvp for most would be like ... an oreo without cream filling, or... a porn star without large breasts.. just .. not very fullfilling.

Interesting comparisons except you and others say that PvP is broken and hardly anyone does it, so would SWG be better with it's broken PvP or no PvP?






I think pvp is broken for sure. Whered the battlefield go? Whered the whole damn GCW go? I call pvp broken when its down to 3 overts sitting on there butts in cnet waiting for somthing to happen. I dont pvp much as a result, events can be fun but short of that... no its not for me. Id rather see a fixed game then a game without content to answer your question. An above poster was correct, SW isnt about night sister elders, or it shouldnt be.



Theu
Tempest
ASO
Slarus
Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:19 am
#31


I think pvp is broken for sure. Whered the battlefield go? Whered the whole damn GCW go? I call pvp broken when its down to 3 overts sitting on there butts in cnet waiting for somthing to happen. I dont pvp much as a result, events can be fun but short of that... no its not for me. Id rather see a fixed game then a game without content to answer your question. An above poster was correct, SW isnt about night sister elders, or it shouldnt be.


It already doesn't have the content if it is broken. I am all for fixing the system, but what I am talking about is people talk about the greatness and birthright of PvP in SWG when SWG doesnt have PvP hardly. I was talking about the poster who said some features are almost as good as the core, well clearly this is not the case here so I fail to see it as a point. I think because they started it and promised a PvP system in SWG they should fix it, but I dont think if they left out PvP from the start the game would have suffered as you'd only get die hard PvPers beggin for PvP, most others would go about thier business, but because Pandora's box of PvP has been open people expect it and want to make it more then it ever was intended.
Spinnthrift
Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:45 am
#32






Slarus wrote:



It already doesn't have the content if it is broken. I am all for fixing the system, but what I am talking about is people talk about the greatness and birthright of PvP in SWG when SWG doesnt have PvP hardly. I was talking about the poster who said some features are almost as good as the core, well clearly this is not the case here so I fail to see it as a point. I think because they started it and promised a PvP system in SWG they should fix it, but I dont think if they left out PvP from the start the game would have suffered as you'd only get die hard PvPers beggin for PvP, most others would go about thier business, but because Pandora's box of PvP has been open people expect it and want to make it more then it ever was intended.






Maybe it's just me... but how could you create a Star Wars game without some PvP unless we're *all* on one side?


I realise I'm just idealistic in this, in thinking the Galactic Civil War should be bloody and brutal and full of carnage, instead of us all hugging each other and being carebears - but even some of the carebears I know are well up for some wanton slaughter every now and then. That's why they're so passionately Imperial or Rebel. Because it's fun. Raa - let's go kick some Imperial backside - show em who's boss. Yeah - let's go stomp the Rebel scum - teach em a thing or two about bases. Woo - those pesky Rebels have got a squadron up - let's go shoot them out of the air and so on.


If a games designer took on a license with as much potency as this one has - damned right they'd be hard pushed to have a war going on and not some bloodshed.


And you're right - if they'd left out PvP - we'd have none of the problems we do now... you know.. the spawn camping and loot whoring and PvE exploitation and... oh wait - we do get all those from PvE as well.. and when we finally get a working battlefield to go play with each other to leave the PvE'ers to it - it gets removed.


Slarus - a few days before the zone got PvEified, I posted saying this would happen. Rational arguements have gone because you guys won. We all griefed you into the neverland and for what - I know I didn't grief others... I did my first master mission overt in kessel and didn't see another soul in there to challenge me for the spot. So I flew around in circles and wee - step one done.


The current PvP while seriously quick - is Star Warsy to a tee. I didn't see TIE's taking 15 direct hits before they're armour got chewed up in the films. They took a shot or three and blew. Same as X-Wings. I don't believe it... if I get shot in space.. I get blown up... if I shoot my opponent in space - they get blown up! What an idea. Only one that really needs a stack of work to be truly Star Warsy is the mp ships. Not that you'd care - you've been quite audibly anti any PvP on these forums.


In space there is no warcry, no stacked sabers, no tef's, no buffs and the composite armour isn't all that hot. There's a lot of twitch and some players who'd love to shoot down some X-Wings/TIE's that don't fly in large circles. It works. My only gripe? If my beloved A-Wing gets nuked I get a stack of decay. Other than that? I'm good.


Why doesn't Star Wars have any PvP really? You honestly want to know why?


It's because people don't like losing. It's not about being Rebel/Imperial and fighting even though you *know* you'll die but you fight because of a principle. It's about not wanting to lose. It takes a big man to knowingly choose to die for something he believes in. In PvE you never have to make that choice. It's all about the win. I'll fight for a cause even though it's made up and roleplayed. In that respect I *roleplay* better than some roleplayers I see because I accept the choices my character would make. Or I can fly in circle "for the win!"



Gabriel' Nightstalker
Jedi Padawan - Guru - Bearer of Oakleys
Hunted Hunter


Slarus
Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:01 am
#33


Maybe it's just me... but how could you create a Star Wars game without some PvP unless we're *all* on one side?


Well I guess it would be like every stand alone game, like KOTOR and such, except instead of AI group members you could have live people. You wouldnt even be asking this if they had no PvP from the start, PvP does not equate to the only way to interact or play the game, a majority of SWG players dont PvP so to them there is no PvP, it can be done I am not saying it should but it can be done.


I realise I'm just idealistic in this, in thinking the Galactic Civil War should be bloody and brutal and full of carnage, instead of us all hugging each other and being carebears - but even some of the carebears I know are well up for some wanton slaughter every now and then. That's why they're so passionately Imperial or Rebel. Because it's fun. Raa - let's go kick some Imperial backside - show em who's boss. Yeah - let's go stomp the Rebel scum - teach em a thing or two about bases. Woo - those pesky Rebels have got a squadron up - let's go shoot them out of the air and so on.


And this can only be achieved through PvP? Sorry I dont see it. PvP is a nice option to have but alot can be done without it that is all I am saying.


If a games designer took on a license with as much potency as this one has - damned right they'd be hard pushed to have a war going on and not some bloodshed.


And you're right - if they'd left out PvP - we'd have none of the problems we do now... you know.. the spawn camping and loot whoring and PvE exploitation and... oh wait - we do get all those from PvE as well.. and when we finally get a working battlefield to go play with each other to leave the PvE'ers to it - it gets removed.


Slarus - a few days before the zone got PvEified, I posted saying this would happen. Rational arguements have gone because you guys won. We all griefed you into the neverland and for what - I know I didn't grief others... I did my first master mission overt in kessel and didn't see another soul in there to challenge me for the spot. So I flew around in circles and wee - step one done.


The current PvP while seriously quick - is Star Warsy to a tee. I didn't see TIE's taking 15 direct hits before they're armour got chewed up in the films. They took a shot or three and blew. Same as X-Wings. I don't believe it... if I get shot in space.. I get blown up... if I shoot my opponent in space - they get blown up! What an idea. Only one that really needs a stack of work to be truly Star Warsy is the mp ships. Not that you'd care - you've been quite audibly anti any PvP on these forums.


In space there is no warcry, no stacked sabers, no tef's, no buffs and the composite armour isn't all that hot. There's a lot of twitch and some players who'd love to shoot down some X-Wings/TIE's that don't fly in large circles. It works. My only gripe? If my beloved A-Wing gets nuked I get a stack of decay. Other than that? I'm good.


Why doesn't Star Wars have any PvP really? You honestly want to know why?


It's because people don't like losing. It's not about being Rebel/Imperial and fighting even though you *know* you'll die but you fight because of a principle. It's about not wanting to lose. It takes a big man to knowingly choose to die for something he believes in. In PvE you never have to make that choice. It's all about the win. I'll fight for a cause even though it's made up and roleplayed. In that respect I *roleplay* better than some roleplayers I see because I accept the choices my character would make. Or I can fly in circle "for the win!"


I agree they should fix PvP, except when looking at why we should do X or Y, you cant use a broken PvP system to justify whne in the next thread almost everyone talks about how it is broken.
Spinnthrift
Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:33 am
#34






Slarus wrote:



Well I guess it would be like every stand alone game, like KOTOR and such, except instead of AI group members you could have live people. You wouldnt even be asking this if they had no PvP from the start, PvP does not equate to the only way to interact or play the game, a majority of SWG players dont PvP so to them there is no PvP, it can be done I am not saying it should but it can be done.


And this can only be achieved through PvP? Sorry I dont see it. PvP is a nice option to have but alot can be done without it that is all I am saying.


I agree they should fix PvP, except when looking at why we should do X or Y, you cant use a broken PvP system to justify whne in the next thread almost everyone talks about how it is broken.





Have I been saying how broken PvP in space is?


Of course you don't see how we *should* have PvP in a game based around a war... that might mean *losing* (and no it doesn't matter what you *lose* it's the not *winning* that counts right?).


And - you're right on *one* count... I wouldn't be asking this question now if we had no PvP... I'm sure I'd be like many others asking what the *&^% was being done with one of the best licenses known to man. Why if I was being a Stormtrooper - Rebel insurgents couldn't shoot me and why if I were a Rebel Guerilla - why those Imperial loyalists were waving to me as I bombed yet another platoon of NPC Stormies into nothing but dust and echoes.


You're right - what a great ideal you have... no PvP at all and fluffiness all round... shoot.. I think we need a Carebears MMO on the design cards. Hang on.. didn't they do something like that, an obscure Egyptian ancient one, no combat, no PvP, no conflict... can't say I've heard a lot about it since laughing at the idea.





Gabriel' Nightstalker
Jedi Padawan - Guru - Bearer of Oakleys
Hunted Hunter


Golrok
Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:42 am
#35






Kalaf wrote:



What would be nice is if the Devs just added a couple more big ship spawns in the entire game. Like that Warlord Crusier in Dant space. Put a Big ship of each type(Imp/Reb?Neutral) roaming each starsystem. You can only attack it if you are Overt. By the same token you can only defend it if you are overt also. Why must PvP be ONLY in a certain spot?





But then they'll say that its not fair that only then Overts can attack it and that they pay $15 a month to attack the uber mobs too, but not Overtly.

Spinnthrift
Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:43 am
#36






Golrok wrote:





Kalaf wrote:



What would be nice is if the Devs just added a couple more big ship spawns in the entire game. Like that Warlord Crusier in Dant space. Put a Big ship of each type(Imp/Reb?Neutral) roaming each starsystem. You can only attack it if you are Overt. By the same token you can only defend it if you are overt also. Why must PvP be ONLY in a certain spot?





But then they'll say that its not fair that only then Overts can attack it and that they pay $15 a month to attack the uber mobs too, but not Overtly.





They whined out Kessel... - soon the ISD will be next. Give it two months tops.



Gabriel' Nightstalker
Jedi Padawan - Guru - Bearer of Oakleys
Hunted Hunter


Slarus
Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:01 pm
#37


Have I been saying how broken PvP in space is?


Of course you don't see how we *should* have PvP in a game based around a war... that might mean *losing* (and no it doesn't matter what you *lose* it's the not *winning* that counts right?).


And - you're right on *one* count... I wouldn't be asking this question now if we had no PvP... I'm sure I'd be like many others asking what the *&^% was being done with one of the best licenses known to man. Why if I was being a Stormtrooper - Rebel insurgents couldn't shoot me and why if I were a Rebel Guerilla - why those Imperial loyalists were waving to me as I bombed yet another platoon of NPC Stormies into nothing but dust and echoes.


You're right - what a great ideal you have... no PvP at all and fluffiness all round... shoot.. I think we need a Carebears MMO on the design cards. Hang on.. didn't they do something like that, an obscure Egyptian ancient one, no combat, no PvP, no conflict... can't say I've heard a lot about it since laughing at the idea.


Ok forget it, I'm not gonna have a debate if your gonna make up stuff, and change what I said I dont have time for trolling crap.


PvP in SWG is fine, but few think it works, so DONT site current PvP as a great reason for more PvP, that is what I said. Go to hell with this carebear non-sense I NEVER advocated zero combat nor a total PvE system, I just said IF, IF the game started with only PvE this would not be a debate, PERIOD. No PvP doesnt mean no combat, it means NO PLAYER VS PLAYER combat, City of Heroes has lots of action, and combat but ZERO PvP, not even dueling so dont lie to us and say that no PvP means no combat, stop trolling and start thinking.

Spinnthrift
Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:20 pm
#38






Slarus wrote:


Ok forget it, I'm not gonna have a debate if your gonna make up stuff, and change what I said I dont have time for trolling crap.


PvP in SWG is fine, but few think it works, so DONT site current PvP as a great reason for more PvP, that is what I said. Go to hell with this carebear non-sense I NEVER advocated zero combat nor a total PvE system, I just said IF, IF the game started with only PvE this would not be a debate, PERIOD. No PvP doesnt mean no combat, it means NO PLAYER VS PLAYER combat, City of Heroes has lots of action, and combat but ZERO PvP, not even dueling so dont lie to us and say that no PvP means no combat, stop trolling and start thinking.






I didn't make up stuff, I just took your arguements to an extreme and deconstructed them henceforth.


And yes - you have plenty of time for trolling - go read the rest of your posts.


More PvP??? That's a joke - we'd like *some* PvP. We had a battleground that *worked* - yeah the system didn't work brilliantly - but we could knock seven shades of *&^% out of each other as long as we wanted. Skill mattered more than template and there was fun. It's the first time in over a year I've seen effective newbies have fights with *Masters* and stand more than a snowflake in hell's chance of winning.


You're right... on one count - and I'll say it again - just so you're crystal clear:


Without PvP in this game we'd all be wondering what the blazes was going on with the license.


Happier now? There is no debate either - you're right on that count too... and I even made it easy to read for you.





Gabriel' Nightstalker
Jedi Padawan - Guru - Bearer of Oakleys
Hunted Hunter


Nell2ThaIzzay
Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:21 pm
#39

You talk about the movies to justify 2-3 shot kills in space PvP...


Well the storm troopers were getting killed with like 1 shot too. Should ground PvP be 1 shot kill?


The point I'm trying to make is... just because it's in the movie, you can't always copy it exactly into the game. I will not PvP in space until they fix the 1 - 2 shot kills. That's not really skill, that's who can get the jump on who first.


And I won't even argue with the rest of your stuff, because I play PvE, so you're just going to think that I'm stupid, and can't really play the game because I take a risk against mobs instead of players (PvE doesn't equal an automatic win, btw, unless you're a master commando fighting durnis)



Marr'Taan LeBeau
Imperial Mercenary - Professional Contract Killer

"Death is my business, and business is good"

Bounty Hunter, Creature Trainer, Droid Engineer, Rifleman
Former Musician and band member of the Tyrenian 3 (Marr'Taan LeBeau, Cale Amossoo, Bari)
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