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I just got to 2222 working for the inquisition, and now I am very scared! I think I'm gonna need a bigger boat, as I'm still using a Tier 1 Tie Fighter.

Spatuluk, I'm sorry to have caused you concern. Hopefully your server has had good shipwright spawns of resources and you can put togeather a better ship than I can. After I wrote my last post, I logged back into the game to heal my excessive death wounds from space and found my ship was disabled. (never log off in space before your ship is reapaired) My guilds shipwright is trying to make me the best possible chasis he can, after I repair the rest of my best components we are going to try a new tactic.

1. Design missions so the mission holder is the most active, not someone that has to hang back and be protected because they are so much weeker than the spawns.


2. Increase the mass and hitpoints on Imperial faction craft so that they can be reasonably able to manage with the components they have access to.


3. If you are grouped, allow for the increase in difficulty without making the mission undoable by the mission holder. Obviously the game mechanics recognizes when you are grouped, sowhy couldn't it adjust according to the level? If I group with another 2222 individual with a Tie/in then increase the spawns, but only enough to be challenging not undoable.


4. If you do increase the difficulty level then increase the rewards to the mission holder so that it is just as rewarding to be grouped as not.At the lower levels and with the lack ofgood resources and shipwrights on my server I am dependant on loot components. If I have to hang back and watch other people do my mission for me Imiss the loot oportunities, unless they give them to me after the mission. Which some do, but the kill stealers don't.


5. Make each step of the long missions completed successfully be just that: COMPLETED! No having to start all over again. If a player has to log on the fourth step in the mission then he should only have to repeat that segment. Even thought the mission themselves last 1 or 2 hours you have to realize that a player may have other things that take up game time. Checking harvestors, helping a guildmate, healing the excessive death wounds from space. Laying incapped because your a crafter with little combat skills and the spawns are really high.


6. I forgot this one: It is reasonable to expect chasis decay with use, but over 1000 hitpoints in 2 deaths when you only started with 1900 is waytoo much.The way it stands I will have to replace my ship every 2-3 daysof game play. I am not rich, barely have enough credits to survive on the way it is.In other words, when grindingfor credits is more time consuming than "fun" in the game, the game losses my interest.

Well thats it for my input on this subject. Spatuluk good luck. I hope you have a completly different experience and this mission is the most fun you have had in this game.

Message Edited by ArcadyHerigorn on 02-02-2005 11:29 AM

Ok guys, gotta say, this is getting a *teeny* bit tense. so...tension breaker.


Clicky!

Now that you all laughed, base line. Missions are hard. Gotcha. Instead of ranting, stick all your issues down, what you've tried and the like, and maybe a couple of Aces can come help with other ideas (besides me).

It's tough sifting through 2 pages of spam -_-

get help

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ArcadyHerigorn wrote:

Caile- thanks for the info and I appreciate your advice. The only thing i can think is a problem is you have to be certified to use certain commands. I mean at lvl 2 astromech I can use up to lvl 2 commands. Anything beyond what your certified for wont work.

I am sorry to hi-jack this thread but in a way it relates to the starters issue. Right now I am so angry and am going to rant big time.

I went into the game and asked my guild mate to help me with the first teir 3 mission. If you have not ace'd in the last couple weeks then don't bother bragging about it. The Dev's have obviously made some changes.

Earlier today I grouped and finished the tier 2 imp inquisition mission. Killing Col Hend.

My trainer sent me to the next level trainer. I soloed the first 3 missions without much trouble, ran out of missles and if I landed to reload then I would have to start over but other than that I made it to the frieghter part of the mission. You have to dock and trasfer documents to them. At the same time your docking 7 tier 4 and maybe tier 5 rebel craft spawn. I died after a valiant fight then logged off.

After searching the boards and finding this thread I went back into the game and grouped with a guildy that is awesome. We started my mission and guess what? Because I was grouped with him the missions were 100 times harder. I am not exagerating. We disabled and moved on as fast as we could but by the time wave after wave of fighters I ended up dying.

Part of the problem was my partner in his uber ship was able to disable the craft way faster than I but a group of players were coming up and killing them. I don't know if they were getting the loot or if they thought they were helping. I didn't have time trying to survive this onslought to search and shout to stop. But even before the current spawn was reduced the next wave would come in.

Tell me anyone has completed this mission? Solo or in a group, how many players and what levels cause I am really frustrated and angry. I don't want an instant win, I don't want to be able to solo but for the love of god this is insane. It really deystroyed my trust in the Dev's for them to be so devious. They expect you to group, but if you do then you need a bigger group. I wonder what will happen if I group with 5-6, people. Spawns of 20-30?

Great now I find out that my ship that had 1900+ hitpoints is down to 1000. A few more deaths and I will need to get a new one. Or is there a way to fix this. It says its in pristine condition.

Message Edited by ArcadyHerigorn on 02-01-2005 07:53 PM

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I just want to address a few things. The first, and most glaring mistake you make is the information about droid commands. Any pilot can use ANY droid command, regardless of level or factional alignment. The only limitation you have is the level of your flight computer. A level 2 computer is rather limited in space and therefore you have to pick and choose your commands wisely. My advice would be to use WO3, CO3 and shunt3 if your reactor can handle it. If not, then drop to CO2 and shunt2 and pick up RO2. If you KNOW you'll always be bringing a friend, forget about the WO3 and concentrate on the cap overload and shunt commands. Stuff the highest level in you can and then put the highest level RO you can fit into your computer.

The second mistake you make is in regards to other players taking out the ships your friend disabled. Mission-spawned ships are not attackable by anyone but the pilots grouped doing the mission. If I'm not in your group and I attack your ships, I get that horrible "you-hit-the-wrong-ship" sound and no damage is done. This is nothing to do with static spawns which any and all players can attack at will.

Missions are *not* 100 times harder when grouped. There may be more ships that spawn, however, if your wingman is as good as you claim it should make no difference. I fly my TIE advanced and regularly take on multiple tier 5 ships, including gunboats. The only place I've been stopped is the end of my tier 4 exit mission where the 3 tier 5 gunboats are as fast as me, so my normal hit-and-run tactics are rendered useless. This hasn't stopped me, I just need to configure my ship better. Tier 3 ships are almost 1-shot kills with my configuration.

No, there is no way to fix your chassis. That is the way the decay model works. Each time your chassis is destroyed, it loses maximum condition. Yes, it is pristine because all components in it are 100% working order. This has nothing to do with the armor/hitpoint ratings of the individual components, or the chassis. If you land a ship with damaged components, that message will change to "damaged" and your damaged components will be listed under (like reactor 82%). Each time your ship is blown up, each and every component in it suffers the decay when it is repaired.

I know what you're facing seems daunting and unfair. Trust me, it can be done, and when you figure out the right set of components and commands to use, and finally do complete the mission you'll feel like a million bucks.

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ArcadyHerigorn wrote:

Spatuluk, I'm sorry to have caused you concern. Hopefully your server has had good shipwright spawns of resources and you can put togeather a better ship than I can. After I wrote my last post, I logged back into the game to heal my excessive death wounds from space and found my ship was disabled. (never log off in space before your ship is reapaired) My guilds shipwright is trying to make me the best possible chasis he can, after I repair the rest of my best components we are going to try a new tactic.

Instead of grouping, which triggers an increase in spawns, he in his interceptor and another guildmate in his advance are going to try and follow and hopefully "protect" my Tie/in long enough to complete my mission. The problem with this tactic is that they will not get system info and may lose the targets for my mission if my mission spawns in a high traffic area. Thats the only thing we could come up with. The tactic of disabling the spawn ships and leaving them to stop the next wave doesn't seem to work, especially if you have other players out looking for a quick and easy kill.

I don't know about anyone else but the way JTL is designed really makes me angry. These are MY MISSIONS I am the one who should have the most involvement, the loot of credits and components should be my rewards not to mention the loss of xp. I am not saying that anyone who helps should not get anything, hell its hard enough to get people into space as it is, but to have to sit back and watch as other people do my mission because the game mechanics make it way more difficult than it should be is rediculous.

I actually hid my Tie/in in some round thing after my weapons were disabled which blocked the agro's fire really well. At one point all the spawns were disabled and my wingman shouted to go for the frieghter, which at that time for some reason my waypoint indicator was no longer active. By the time I flew and tried to dock with 2 wrong freighter's another wave of Rebel A wings spawned, I barely made it back to my hiding place but only suffered a little more damage. But I did see in the distance a small object with a white box around it. When this wave was subdued I charged to that white box and just as I hit the dock button another wave of A wings spawned right on top of me. A wings are far superior to a Tie/in they are fast, manuverable and hit hard. I was obliterated in no time.

I am willing to try and give the game a chance (2nd by the way). I am willing to discuss and make suggestions and hope that the Dev's listen and make appropriate changes. What I wonder is how many people have just given up on JTL or just stopped playing the game all togeather.

My suggestions:

1. Design missions so the mission holder is the most active, not someone that has to hang back and be protected because they are so much weeker than the spawns.
2. Increase the mass and hitpoints on Imperial faction craft so that they can be reasonably able to manage with the components they have access to.
3. If you are grouped, allow for the increase in difficulty without making the mission undoable by the mission holder. Obviously the game mechanics recognizes when you are grouped, so why couldn't it adjust according to the level? If I group with another 2222 individual with a Tie/in then increase the spawns, but only enough to be challenging not undoable.
4. If you do increase the difficulty level then increase the rewards to the mission holder so that it is just as rewarding to be grouped as not. At the lower levels and with the lack of good resources and shipwrights on my server I am dependant on loot components. If I have to hang back and watch other people do my mission for me I miss the loot oportunities, unless they give them to me after the mission. Which some do, but the kill stealers don't.
5. Make each step of the long missions completed successfully be just that: COMPLETED! No having to start all over again. If a player has to log on the fourth step in the mission then he should only have to repeat that segment. Even thought the mission themselves last 1 or 2 hours you have to realize that a player may have other things that take up game time. Checking harvestors, helping a guildmate, healing the excessive death wounds from space. Laying incapped because your a crafter with little combat skills and the spawns are really high.
6. I forgot this one: It is reasonable to expect chasis decay with use, but over 1000 hitpoints in 2 deaths when you only started with 1900 is way too much. The way it stands I will have to replace my ship every 2-3 days of game play. I am not rich, barely have enough credits to survive on the way it is. In other words, when grinding for credits is more time consuming than "fun" in the game, the game losses my interest.

Well thats it for my input on this subject. Spatuluk good luck. I hope you have a completly different experience and this mission is the most fun you have had in this game.

Message Edited by ArcadyHerigorn on 02-02-2005 11:29 AM

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I thought addressing this merited another posting. I'll address each as they are numbered.

1) You are *not* so much weaker than your mission-spawned enemies that you become the bystander while your wingmen take out the targets. Yes, you are weaker. What is required is a change of tactics. You must adapt your ship/components/flying style to the demands of the situation. For example, you'd be far better served getting xxx3 as your first box to enable you to have a larger flight computer, than you would be getting 3xxx for the interceptor/bomber chassis if you are going to fly grouped. Fly your TIE/LN and put some decent droid commands in to increase your weapons output and shield capacity.

2) The imperial ships are low in mass purposefully. This does not necessarily limit their effectiveness, it just requires pilots to fly a bit smarter. I reference bullet point 1 above. With the proper droid commands your TIE/LN can be almost as fast and hard-hitting as an interceptor with the same components.

3) I'm not really sure where you are getting the idea that a mission becomes exponentially harder as you group. There may be more spawns, but it is not as simple as 1 pilot = 5 enemy/spawn and 2 pilots = 10. Make sure both you and your wingman are complimenting each other. What his setup lacks, put in yours to compensate. For example, he may be unable to load missiles because of the gun he has. Therefore, you load up the missiles and use them.

4) Why should you be more rewarded for somebody else doing the work? That makes no sense. If you and your wingman are grouped and working together, perhaps you could make arrangements before the flight to share the loot equally. However, loot is not the reason you're there. You're there to gain XP and complete the missions. Besides, once you've gotten through a few, you'll be out flying solo and picking up all the loot you can handle. When I was in the third tier, I would regularly fly around killing randomly spawned ships and collecting loot. I've got 3 houses full of stuff I've collected and sold a bunch more to shipwrights. Complete the missions, worry about looting later.

5) I would rather they shortened the timeframe of the entire mission than allow for stopping at step 4 so you can land, repair, refit and relaunch. I do agree that the missions need to be looked at and redesigned. Your other game-time concerns (like checking harvestors) can be done during non-flying times. Adjust your playing schedule, don't suggest the devs do that for you.

6) Assuming this still works as originally designed, each decay event results in the loss of 50% of the current condition of the component. So, the loss of over 1000 hp from your chassis is reasonable for the first few deaths, however, it does slow down. In the most extreme case, your chassis will end up as condition 1/1. You can still fly it, just don't expect to live too long if your shields/armor ever fail. Flying can make you plenty of credits. Mission payouts are alright, but killing static spawns earns you money considerably faster. Add to that the fact that you can sell the looted items at 1k per level to the chassis dealers (or similarly priced to a local shipwright) and you've got a decent money-making enterprise.

I wasn't actually scared, by the way... at the moment I'm actually thinking that I can do it on my own! I'm sure I'll learn otherwise.

My only concern now is the mission time. how likely is it that the mission will take more than 2 hours, as I'm using dialup that disconnects me every 2 hours. I'd hate to get through the mission only to be disconnected just before victory!

I forgot to watch the time last night and it disconnected just as I'd opened fire on a group of Tier 2/3 Dunelizards in Lok space. I logged back in to find my character standing in Kadaara spaceport with no injuries or BF, but about the only thing left working on my ship was my capacitor (a bit useless, as the guns weren't working)

Message Edited by spatuluk on 02-03-2005 10:15 AM

Arcady, I'm glad we've been able to have this discussion, and regardless of how intense it may seem to other readers, many of the issues being discussed are the core issues pilots of all factions face. To that end, I'd like to continue with our discussions, and hopefully (and this is a big hope) some of the "powers-that-be" might read our conversation, and take some kind of action. As before, I will address things by the numbers to keep it organized.

1) I agreed that you are weaker than your enemies when you first start a new tier. What I didn't agree to was the discrepancy between your ship/components and the enemy's ship/components that you you inferred in your original post. Flying a TIE/LN as a 2222 pilot allows you to use level 4-5 components. Your mission-spawned enemies are there to challenge your skills, but not overwhelm you completely. Is it tough? You bet. It took me at least 6 attempts to make it through my first tier 3 mission.

Reactor overload is indeed a droid command. Furthermore, it is not even an imperial command, but rather a neutral-faction command. Somebody at some point burned a chip for you (you may have purchased it) and you put it in your flight computer. There are also inate pilot abilities specific to faction. For example, because you are Imperial, you have access to /eweapons, and later /bstrike1-3.

2) Of course you only get a limited amount of performance gain from droid commands. You also correctly state your ship's performance is dependent on the components that make it up. When I was flying a TIE/LN, I had a 43.5 spd engine in it. My point is that it boils down to how you as a pilot utilize those components best in a given situation. Your spawned enemies will not be so much more powerful than you that you have no chance at all against them. Like I mentioned in point 1, it took me over 6 times to successfully complete my first tier 3 mission.

3) 5 A-wings and 2 Y-wings seems to be a bit high, but is believable. What is absolutely incorrect is the tier 5 ships. A mission will *never* spawn ships higher than 1 tier above your current level. If you encountered tier 4/5 ships it was due to a static spawn, and that issue is something to address with the devs. In terms of how to handle that 7 ship spawn, my approach would have been to disable the Y-wings first as they will fire missiles at you, and then dock with the freighter basically ignoring the A-wing attacks. The freighter will block a good portion of the incoming fire from the A-wings. Once you dock, start hyperspace calculations (to the same sector, or else the mission fails). This way, you're docking and the computer is performing its calculations. By the time the dock procedure is complete, you're about ready to jump, so tangle with the A-wings a bit more, then off you go. Again, that is just how I would handle the situation, and is not written to insult your ability, but rather offer an alternative you may not have tried yet.

4) If you are waiting for that ultimate loot component to drop, you'll be waiting a while. My argument here is that those other more experienced pilots are doing the work, therefore they should in turn reap the rewards. You should not be rewarded for it, plain and simple. One of my biggest complaints against JtL was the full XP earned for inflicting only 5% damage to an enemy. Basically, you land 1 or 2 hits on a ship and then your wingman obliterates it, and you both gain full XP. I don't agree with that, but that is probably not something that is going to change.

5) Landing, repairing and refitting is wrong because of the structure of the missions. For example, one of the missions requires that after you've completed one section you must fly to a waypoint to assist in repairs of a damaged shuttle, then escort that shuttle safely. It wouldn't really make sense to be able to stop the mission, head on to your local space station, repair your ship, land, check your harvestors, buy more/better components for your ship with the credits you've just earned, put those into your ship, launch and go help that shuttle. That shuttle is long since destroyed by the rebels.

I think we both agree that the missions need work. My suggestion is to shorten the time to completion by either taking some of the steps out, or shortening the length of time an individual step takes. I do not believe a "save and come back" approach would work.

Your comment about "max fun" speaks volumes. It is readily apparent that you are not enjoying your time trying to accomplish the first of the tier 3 missions. If you find it boring, or tedious, then accept you made a $30 mistake and move on. This is a philosophical debate that will go on for quite some time to come. I feel that if I'm playing for 3 hours, I'm by definition having fun. Ask yourself what your ultimate goal is. If your answer is to have a master pilot, then you're doomed to not have fun. If your answer is "to enjoy the 3 hours I'm online" then you're well on your way.

6) I don't know that much more needs to be written, except about how the decay ties back to point 1 (i.e. making you weaker). The model is trying to emulate system stress of space combat with the decay system. It is also to stimulate the shipwright's profession by guaranteeing that at some point you *will* be visiting them to purchase another chassis. As your ship takes damage and is stressed, its overall effectiveness is inherently weakened. Continue to fly that same ship and you become less and less effective against your enemies. I think this is absolutely correct and adds a sense of "realism" to the game (if there is such a thing).

7) *new point added here to address droid commands* Droid commands, as I alluded to above, can be used by any pilot that has a ship with a flight computer. Any pilot can use any droid command from any faction or level. A pilot may only program what he knows, but can put any chip into a computer. Let me try to give an example. I am a 4444 Imperial pilot for Storm Squadron. This gives me the ability to program any Imperial astromech command (engine overload1-4, engine tune1-4, engine stabilization, weapon overload1-4, weapon tune1-4, weapon stabilization). If I want to use reactor overload, I need to find a freelance pilot to make me a reactor overload chip. I then put that chip into my flight computer and thus become able to utilize the reactor overload command. Maybe a concrete example would help. My current setup is a v5 flight computer with weapon overload 3, engine overload 3, reactor overload 3, capacitor overload 3 and cap to shield shunt 3. I programmed the weapon and engine overload commands, but bought the reactor overload and capacitor overload and put them into my computer.

In short, find a vendor selling them, or a high-level rebel/neutral faction pilot willing to make them and you can use any and all droid commands in the game.

8) *new point added here to address your last paragraph* The missions will typically take you through paths of NPC ships. These can be both friendly and enemy. I distinctly remember a few of my tier 3 and at least 1 of my tier 4 missions took me right through friendly NPC spawns. I was extremely grateful to see those interceptors and advanced fighters come fight by my side to wipe out the rebel scum. These NPC ships are the only ones that can attack and destroy your mission-spawned ships. No player, unless grouped with you, can attack your mission's ships. However, if your mission takes you through a static spawn, then any player or NPC can attack and destroy those ships.

I'm actually in the process of writing a long long post for y'all to help you out. Look for it in the next few days.