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Thread: Space PVP: what do i get?
Coran_Sienar
Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:20 am
#27
Using capacitor to shield shunt is useful because it artificially boosts the regen of your shields an order of magnitude; especially if you use a looped macro. Since the advent of that particular droid program, there's no point to making a shield with a fast recharge rate. Now, you just build up as many shield points as possible and use the capacitor programs to recharge the shields faster than any other way. Historically, that NEVER happened with any of the Star Wars games. As for /eshields, I don't really like that ability, but it's kind of balanced since you can't fire your weapons while it's in effect.
edit: And since you brought up the old Star Wars games, lemme ask you: What prevented you from always boosting your shield recharge rate and/or you capacitor recharge rate? Your speed would drop and you'd turn into a sitting duck.
None of the droid programs, as they stand now, have any real negative effects. Hence, they're not balanced. There's no reason why anyone shouldn't always have WO3, EO3, CO3, RO3 and CTSS3 (in a looped macro, no less), on constantly. These programs have been equated to "space buffs" but the truth is that they're more unbalanced than buffs are since buffs expire after a set time and you have to pay money and expend effort to buy or craft them.
Message Edited by Coran_Sienar on 02-02-2005 10:37 AM
quadpers0n
Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:38 am
#28
afaik nothing prevented you from doing it, aside from a drained capacitor, however you were prevented from overcharging it by limiting another component. IE overcharge your engine and you have no shields. overcharge your shields and lose your guns, etc. i concur that is not present in the current system and maybe it should be... but:
shield to capacitor stunt isn't an overpowering program now. it's not entirely true that recharge rate is dismissed because lighter fighters aren't going to have (unless they have the prenerf ones) uber droid interfaces. in my interceptor i depend on recharge over shield stunt and in heavier fighters people won't be using stunts as often once WCO3 is fixed. it's usefull now because overcharging my capacitor and a buggy WCO3 keeps even a mediocre capacitor pegged at 1600, even with 2 level 10 guns. once WCO3 is fixed, I'm not going to enjoy that advantage anymore. if i want to run stunts every 6 seconds with a macro i'm going to be severely limiting my guns, especially since the excess is always discarded. if i want to use it frequently i'm going to be forced to tone down my guns.
bugs need to be fixed first, viabilty needs to be established for all the ships offered in the game first, and not only in PVE. once that happens people can start talking about tweaking the system. people are saying PVP damage is fine, and IMO it is, but i serously doubt anyone is going to be utterly adverse to tweaking the system once everything is fixed. but doing it backwards is part of what got the ground in such hot water and requiredover ayear and a total overhaul to fix, despite being much simpler than the ground game it's a slope we don't want, or need to go down.
it just flat out does not need to happen now. you can definately have fun with the current system and people are doing it daily. let's get the guys who have fun in MP ships happy, let's fix the bugs, then see how things work out.
quadpers0n
Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:26 am
#29
i see what you are saying, and at the moment the droid commands definately do look like the secondary statistic samming workarounds players enjoy to this day.
however once WCO3 is fixed, which is really a nasty nasty bug if you think about it, everything is going to start to even itself out a bit.
Kerago
Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:32 pm
#30
Ramona_Garcia wrote:
"1 to 3 hit kills mean balance. As long as you can waste any shield with a couple shots from a level 5+ gun your skill in aiming and flying, not in grinding and equipping, will decide the outcome. Not to mention that with Shunt cap to shield 4 you would end up invulnerable in a fighter if it took more hits to down you.
PvP in space is not like pve, avoiding to get hit in the first place is key in surviving. No matter your loadout or ship, there is no "I win button"."
You are ignoring something fundamental here: Latency. When the first hit is the only thing that matters, the person with the better latency will always win, regardless of skill. You mention shunt cap to shield 4 as if this would preclude medium length engagement times. This is a failure of that skill with regards to medium length engagement times, not a failure of the concept (or as I feel, the necessity) of medium length engagement times.
Instadeath is not balanced. It is skewed in favor of the person with the best latency, or depending on how the netcode works, makes combat effectiveness completely random. Neither outcome is balanced or fun.
"1 to 3 hit kills mean balance. As long as you can waste any shield with a couple shots from a level 5+ gun your skill in aiming and flying, not in grinding and equipping, will decide the outcome. Not to mention that with Shunt cap to shield 4 you would end up invulnerable in a fighter if it took more hits to down you.
PvP in space is not like pve, avoiding to get hit in the first place is key in surviving. No matter your loadout or ship, there is no "I win button"."
You are ignoring something fundamental here: Latency. When the first hit is the only thing that matters, the person with the better latency will always win, regardless of skill. You mention shunt cap to shield 4 as if this would preclude medium length engagement times. This is a failure of that skill with regards to medium length engagement times, not a failure of the concept (or as I feel, the necessity) of medium length engagement times.
Instadeath is not balanced. It is skewed in favor of the person with the best latency, or depending on how the netcode works, makes combat effectiveness completely random. Neither outcome is balanced or fun.
Ducimus
Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:13 pm
#31
Just for a minute, lets pretend sony put in a 75% PvP damage reduction like alot of people who've never PvPed, or PvPed very little seem to want.
Now lets take a typical A wing Vs T/A dogfight.
You both see each and and move to engage. Now currently this is the hardest part of the engagement. You normally have two options. Fire and hit first, or evade and try and get in close. With 75% damage reduction, nether choice is applicable. So someone hits, or misses, someone shunts to shield or doesnt, but regardles, its no big deal, and the fight is on.
So your both manuvering at high speed. Twisting and turning and eventually someone gets a breif opportunity to fire and they do. Half the the time they will miss because of the high velocity of the fight. Lets assume someone hits.
Wow, your bandit now has 80% shields, and he shunts back to 100. Maybe he doesnt even have to shunt at all? It could be a good 10-15-to 20 seconds before another hit is scored. Rinse and repeat. and repeat and reapeat. Said fight could go on until somone finally gets bored and tries to disengage.
Now, do we have to add in the equipment issue into this as well? Whoever spends the most time in space will have their 80% composite uber blaster of smiting. So now its back to the haves and have nots, and even then, your 80% composite uber blaster of smiting might not get you a kill considering how breif acutal hits are.
Now lets take a typical A wing Vs T/A dogfight.
You both see each and and move to engage. Now currently this is the hardest part of the engagement. You normally have two options. Fire and hit first, or evade and try and get in close. With 75% damage reduction, nether choice is applicable. So someone hits, or misses, someone shunts to shield or doesnt, but regardles, its no big deal, and the fight is on.
So your both manuvering at high speed. Twisting and turning and eventually someone gets a breif opportunity to fire and they do. Half the the time they will miss because of the high velocity of the fight. Lets assume someone hits.
Wow, your bandit now has 80% shields, and he shunts back to 100. Maybe he doesnt even have to shunt at all? It could be a good 10-15-to 20 seconds before another hit is scored. Rinse and repeat. and repeat and reapeat. Said fight could go on until somone finally gets bored and tries to disengage.
Now, do we have to add in the equipment issue into this as well? Whoever spends the most time in space will have their 80% composite uber blaster of smiting. So now its back to the haves and have nots, and even then, your 80% composite uber blaster of smiting might not get you a kill considering how breif acutal hits are.
Ramona_Garcia
Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:15 pm
#32
Kerago wrote:
Ramona_Garcia wrote:
"1 to 3 hit kills mean balance. As long as you can waste any shield with a couple shots from a level 5+ gun your skill in aiming and flying, not in grinding and equipping, will decide the outcome. Not to mention that with Shunt cap to shield 4 you would end up invulnerable in a fighter if it took more hits to down you.
PvP in space is not like pve, avoiding to get hit in the first place is key in surviving. No matter your loadout or ship, there is no "I win button"."
You are ignoring something fundamental here: Latency. When the first hit is the only thing that matters, the person with the better latency will always win, regardless of skill. You mention shunt cap to shield 4 as if this would preclude medium length engagement times. This is a failure of that skill with regards to medium length engagement times, not a failure of the concept (or as I feel, the necessity) of medium length engagement times.
Instadeath is not balanced. It is skewed in favor of the person with the best latency, or depending on how the netcode works, makes combat effectiveness completely random. Neither outcome is balanced or fun.
Ok, let me state this again: I may not be the best space pvper around, but I have been in a number of duels by now, flying ships with tier 3 gear. I have very seldom been one shotted. So, in my experience, this one shotting is not the norm. I suspect people unused to pvp, and still flying as if in pve, where they can take shots and don't have to think about evading, are the source of this. And even if it is a one shot kill... why did the enemy get to hit you? Because you failed to evade or outfly him. Yes, skill, not equipment counts more, and that's exactly right. If you get hit then you already made a mistake.
Latency? I play from europe, so my ping is pretty bad usually, compared to the US.
Would you please state if you actually pvped in space? or did some duel and then thought you knew how it worked?
Kerago
Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:04 am
#33
Every time I've been shot down it has been before my enemy even registers as being in gun range thanks to my 200 ping from New Zealand.
Other combat that I have observed has been over very quickly, within 10 seconds.
I don't deny that there is skill in setting up for the engagement (which I obviously lack due to my inexperience with *this* flight engine). This isn't my objection. I don't have any complaints about being defeated by more skilled opponents.
My objection to the very-short-engagement model that currently exists is the amount that it limits gameplay. For example, the game I come from emphasised teamwork. In a game where are you dead before you can utter the sentence "I've got an X-wing on my six!" the scope for team work is limited. Obviously given equal skill the side with more people is still going to win in this game, but the overall fight will be a short cascade of 1 on 1's with very little opportunity for wing tactics. Obviously there is *some* scope for team work, what I am emphasising here is the limiting nature of short-engagment times.
Once again the objection against lengthening the engagement time is the cap to shield shunt skill. I'll repeat myself: A skill being broken in relation to extended engagement times does not invalidate the concept of extended engagement times. Balance could be reintroduced by modifying that skill, so that it rendered the guns inoperable for a period of time (making it strictly a run-away tactic, not a fight-shunt-fight-shunt repetitive bore-fest).
I'm not looking for engagement times to increase to 10 minutes or anything. However they should be long enough for things like wing tactics, disengagements, chasing and choke points to be important.
To preclude comments relating to my relative inexperience: Rather than simply calling me a noob and dismissing me, please address the points I have raised.
Other combat that I have observed has been over very quickly, within 10 seconds.
I don't deny that there is skill in setting up for the engagement (which I obviously lack due to my inexperience with *this* flight engine). This isn't my objection. I don't have any complaints about being defeated by more skilled opponents.
My objection to the very-short-engagement model that currently exists is the amount that it limits gameplay. For example, the game I come from emphasised teamwork. In a game where are you dead before you can utter the sentence "I've got an X-wing on my six!" the scope for team work is limited. Obviously given equal skill the side with more people is still going to win in this game, but the overall fight will be a short cascade of 1 on 1's with very little opportunity for wing tactics. Obviously there is *some* scope for team work, what I am emphasising here is the limiting nature of short-engagment times.
Once again the objection against lengthening the engagement time is the cap to shield shunt skill. I'll repeat myself: A skill being broken in relation to extended engagement times does not invalidate the concept of extended engagement times. Balance could be reintroduced by modifying that skill, so that it rendered the guns inoperable for a period of time (making it strictly a run-away tactic, not a fight-shunt-fight-shunt repetitive bore-fest).
I'm not looking for engagement times to increase to 10 minutes or anything. However they should be long enough for things like wing tactics, disengagements, chasing and choke points to be important.
To preclude comments relating to my relative inexperience: Rather than simply calling me a noob and dismissing me, please address the points I have raised.
Coran_Sienar
Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:09 am
#34
The fact of the matter is that some players, due to their network lag, will have a much rougher time in JtL than those who are on fast broadband connections close to their server. It's not a unique problem. Given equal skill, the person who will usually be at the top of the ladder is the guy with the lowest ping.
Kerago
Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:40 pm
#35
I understand that, it is inevitable with online gaming. However, you can reduce the effect of latency on combat, making it fairer for all, by increasing the engagement times. While the person with the lowest ping will still likely get off the first shot, the other person will at least have a chance to come back in the fight with superior maneuvering.
Abyssdame
Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:47 am
#37
Tremk_Stryder wrote:
nope...no one pvps in space...too many left the game
Not sure about your server but Bloodfin is packed almost everynight.
Message Edited by Abyssdame on 02-04-2005 10:47 AM
Kerago
Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:38 pm
#38
Sweet, time to make a bloodfin character. Been trying to find out if there is a server with decent population so I could get some worthwhile practice in. It seems the thread I started to that effect was deleted or dissapeared somehow (unless it got more than 5 pages back in the history in two days).
TotalJerk
Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:03 pm
#39
PVP in space is pretty much without reward. It doesnt offer much of a thrill either since dogifighting another player usually lasts for 1 pass before someone is dead.
Until the balance issues get fixed, and the decay issues are erased, no one will PVP in great numbers in space. Everyone is too concerned about component decay.