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Thread: Space PVP: what do i get?
Really simple and obvious things seem to have been ignored. Instant death PvP does not work in an online game where latency is such a huge issue. A lot of the people who will sign up for space combat are inherently competitive, lacking a leaderboard (or even a kill message for the love of all that is good and pure) will just drive these people away.
There are always power gamers who will look for the single loadout/tactic and try to exploit it against all-comers, especially if they can pick on less experienced pilots. You defeat this with balance: Fast ships should not be powerful. Powerful ships should not be fast. Winning tactics should be those that require skill to learn, or those that rely on effective teamwork to encourage participation.
All of this stuff should be obvious to anyone with experience with online space combat. I am not claiming to be an expert who knows everything there is, but JTL just exasperates me sometimes. I hope that the devs really do put some effort into a skill based and fun PvP system, there is enough grind in the rest of the game to keep traditional MMORPG fans occupied.
Ramona_Garcia wrote:
Sheesh... Tier 2 ship, single level 5 gun, vs a YT-1300 with quest reward shields... 2 or 3 shots and the shields were down to 67%.
You do NOT need to be master to be effective in PvP. Shields go down the same, with tier 2 or 3 gear as with tier 4 gear.
Im sorry that is wrong, i did a duel with a guild mate the other day. Him in his y-wing me in my x-wing and i told him i didnt want to cause it was unfair but he insisted, i took him out in one shot with 2 blasters (i dont install the third).
Nowwhat if i cant use a teir 5 blaster cause im only teir 2 pilot, the best stuff i can load into a fighter is teir 2 stuff. now let say my ship with my teir 2 blasters against that teir 5 ship with the best shields loaded, if your blasters took it down to 67% in 2 shots it woud take me 10-15 shots to do the same thing. So no,Space PVP is not balanced there is potential but they went the wrong way with it.
- Rebel Pilot 4/4/4/3
Corran950 wrote:
Ramona_Garcia wrote:
Sheesh... Tier 2 ship, single level 5 gun, vs a YT-1300 with quest reward shields... 2 or 3 shots and the shields were down to 67%.
You do NOT need to be master to be effective in PvP. Shields go down the same, with tier 2 or 3 gear as with tier 4 gear.
Im sorry that is wrong, i did a duel with a guild mate the other day. Him in his y-wing me in my x-wing and i told him i didnt want to cause it was unfair but he insisted, i took him out in one shot with 2 blasters (i dont install the third).
Nowwhat if i cant use a teir 5 blaster cause im only teir 2 pilot, the best stuff i can load into a fighter is teir 2 stuff. now let say my ship with my teir 2 blasters against that teir 5 ship with the best shields loaded, if your blasters took it down to 67% in 2 shots it woud take me 10-15 shots to do the same thing. So no,Space PVP is not balanced there is potential but they went the wrong way with it.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 02-01-2005 06:59 AM
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 02-01-2005 07:03 AM
Ramona_Garcia wrote:
Err, I am talking cert level 5, not tier 5 blaster... stuff you can install and use at tier 2... trust me, you do NOT need master level gear to pvp. Quest reward shields are 2400ish strength. That's about 3 shots with a cert level 5 gun. (1200 to 1700 dmg, efficiency about 0.6).
Hmm i quess i read it wrong, i apologise i saw level 5 and teir 5 poped in my head. I didnt have any hard numbers in front of me to compare levels.
i guess im main complaint is that combat is mostly component driven rather than twitch skill based.
Message Edited by Corran950 on 02-01-2005 07:25 AM
Corran950 wrote:
Ramona_Garcia wrote:
Err, I am talking cert level 5, not tier 5 blaster... stuff you can install and use at tier 2... trust me, you do NOT need master level gear to pvp. Quest reward shields are 2400ish strength. That's about 3 shots with a cert level 5 gun. (1200 to 1700 dmg, efficiency about 0.6).
Hmm i quess i read it wrong, i apologise i saw level 5 and teir 5 poped in my head. I didnt have any hard numbers in front of me to compare levels.
i guess im main complaint is that combat is mostly component driven rather than twitch skill based.
Message Edited by Corran950 on 02-01-2005 07:25 AM
However it is not component driven, and that's one of the reasons I love space so much and abhor the ground game. It is actually highly dependant on twitch skill. For me there are 3 things you need to PVP in space.
1. aim
2. situational awareness
3. manuverabilty
half of those 3 things are twitch. 1 of them is being aware and the remaining 1/2 is equipment.
trust me, plug a level 2 gun into your basic tie (not the LN) jump up into space with an engine that has a decent YPR in the high 50s and try to cram in a DI and reactor capable of enging overload 2. now duel your friend in a large ship, he can either use his big guns or use little guns like you do. you'll be amazed at what you find and also you'll come to realize how disparate the system would become if PVP damage was reduced farther. if you don't like an equipment reliant system, then you should be 100% behind the current system.
anyone can pvp in this system. why people don't sacrifice 1 of their 3 ships to have a PVP ship loaded with junk components to just have fun in is beyond me. personally i think it's because of the lack of content to encourage players to PVP. there really needs to bea reason to fight and go overt, besides grinding FP. a killboard might do the trick.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 02-01-2005 09:12 AM
</edit>Message Edited by Tsumitsuki on 02-01-2005 03:28 PM
>>
If the devs followed the advice of Tsumitsuki, you'd never be able to kill anyone in PvP.
Capcitor shunt to shield for the invulnerablity!
Oh wait, PvP is high speed, and the norm is a series of breif snap shots too. So that one breif shot you got into your opponent? He just shunted it away, and is back to 100% shields. You can dogfight all night and no one will die.
so take away an incredibly useful, and historic feature from star wars flight sims just because people want to "dogfight" under a system that would likely change the balance of the game and tilt it heavily in favor of the powergamer?
would rebels automatically be given quarter in terms of being able to e-shields and escape from every fight? oh now we have to remove that feature as well.
pvp damage is fine as it is, the majority of the complaints simply stem from people who aren't aware of how the system works and get jumped. the other half are from people who really haven't taken the time to consider the ramifications of what they are asking under the current system. 10-20 hit pvp is fine for a game where all ships are equal based on chassis, that's not the game we are playing though.
i'm not saying i love 1 hit pvp, there has been some great ideas to make it 2-3 hit pvp, but 5-10+ hit pvp is a fallacy, people clamoring for it will be extremely dissapointed when players like me at the top of the food chain are killing them in a single salvo, but they need to land 20 shots to return the favor. it will turn into an exact duplicate of the ground game. i'm beginning to suspect that's what a few people want.
and of course, as always let me end my post by saying this doesn't apply to MP ships.
what this game really really needs, is a purpose for the big MP ships. these ships should be taking the place for the lack of capital ships to fly against. you need firepower to take them down and the only ships viable in that regard should be heavy fighters or bombers. giving MP ships 10k+ shields with 200k or more mass would accomplish this. you wouldn't want to go up against one in a a-wing unless you are bringing bombers or heavyies as well. likewise, lack of manuverability would make MP ships succeptible to heavy fighters and they should have an escort.
that kind of dynamic is what the game desperately needs. it would entice players to get into space in their MP ships, it would entice heavy fighters to have a real purpose aside from the nebulous PVP/PVE mix they have now, and it would give people a point to keep flying their light fighters. changing pvp damage would do absolutely nothing in that regard, aside from make heavy fighters and MP ships the same strength and impuning everyone without the time commitment to have the best guns. since the best guns are looted, and the most mobs are in deep space, it would just reinforce a group of players owning the zone. we really really don't want to go down that road.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 02-02-2005 06:42 AM
quadpers0n wrote:
i'm not saying i love 1 hit pvp, there has been some great ideas to make it 2-3 hit pvp, but 5-10+ hit pvp is a fallacy, people clamoring for it will be extremely dissapointed when players like me at the top of the food chain are killing them in a single salvo, but they need to land 20 shots to return the favor. it will turn into an exact duplicate of the ground game. i'm beginning to suspect that's what a few people want.
and of course, as always let me end my post by saying this doesn't apply to MP ships.
what this game really really needs, is a purpose for the big MP ships. these ships should be taking the place for the lack of capital ships to fly against. you need firepower to take them down and the only ships viable in that regard should be heavy fighters or bombers. giving MP ships 10k+ shields with 200k or more mass would accomplish this. you wouldn't want to go up against one in a a-wing unless you are bringing bombers or heavyies as well. likewise, lack of manuverability would make MP ships succeptible to heavy fighters and they should have an escort.
that kind of dynamic is what the game desperately needs. it would entice players to get into space in their MP ships, it would entice heavy fighters to have a real purpose aside from the nebulous PVP/PVE mix they have now, and it would give people a point to keep flying their light fighters. changing pvp damage would do absolutely nothing in that regard, aside from make heavy fighters and MP ships the same strength and impuning everyone without the time commitment to have the best guns. since the best guns are looted, and the most mobs are in deep space, it would just reinforce a group of players owning the zone. we really really don't want to go down that road.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 02-02-2005 06:42 AM
Yes. I also suspect a few players can't stomach the fact that in space, you either are veryskilled, very lucky, or will die sooner or later in most fights, no matter your leet gear.
Longer fights? Not sure if that's so good an idea either, space fighting is intense, and those 20 seconds feel longer, much longer to me during the fight.
It is not about luck either. Getting vaped 1 or 2 times may be due to a lucky shot, but if the other one fries you 6 times in a row then he simply is a better pilot, and at least I have no trouble acknowledging that.
Though, multis need better defenses. 5 to 10 times the shield strength would make them effective comapred to their crew demands.