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Thread: My ideas to give space PVP a bit more attraction
atytula wrote:
Ducimus wrote:
>>Why does this have to be different because it is MM? An Xwing is an Xwing, a TIE fighter is a TIE fighter. The type of game does not change this.
Oh man..... does someone really need to explain this?
If you think theres no difference between how single players games work, and how a compediatve PvP multiplayer game works, you are truly dillusional.
Here's the biggest difference.
You are not fighting an NPC. Your fighting a THINKING opponent.
When games are made, and designes are drawn, how the game is crafted and balanced is based on what kind of game it is. Singleplayer games can do what they like by virtue of you being the only person playing it. There's no balance issues involved at all, no other people to consider, YOU are the center of attention.
Not so here.
A PvP game has two sides, each side has to be balanced in order to produce a level playing field. You have more than one person playing, all sides need equity. You are not the center of attention. The overall scope of all players combined is. You are thinking in terms of defense, but your totally ignoring offense. You could be playing both, but you seem to be focused on defense. Honestly i think your just upset cause you weren't paying attention and got smoked like a cheap cigar. Now you want to change the rules of the game to provide you with a crutch, to better suit your own playstyle.
Can anyone imagine a Tatical game (be it an RTS, FPS, or MMO) where the game itself tells you of what the enemy is doing? Likewise, can anyone imagine a tatical game where the game itself tells the enemy what your doing instead of him trying to find out for himself? Its utterly obsurd. To put in another term, its like playing a RTS game and having one player of the game with a "no fog" cheat code enabled.
Message Edited by Ducimus on 02-11-2005 10:07 AM
LISTEN TO WHAT I AM SAYING. If you did, you would stop repeating things I never said. No-one asked for the game to "tell you of what the enemy is doing". Far from it. We are just asking for our flight computer/droid to tell us when a new radar target is aquired.
Secondly, play Xwing vs TIE fighter or Xwing alliance before you tell me the Xwing games are all single player. They are multiplayer games, more so with Xwing vs Tie fighter then JTL. In those games when you fly in an Xwing, your astromech droid beeps and tells you a new target has entered the system (whether it was NPC or not).
Thirdly, I have NEVER been vaped in space, as I have never PvPed. I have long since abandoned PvP on the ground due to all the problems and griefing that happens, and when I heard that space PvP sucks as well, I just stick to PvE. Maybe when it gets fixed I will join in. Even so, I feel that this missing feature of JTL is useful in both PvE and PvP.
Let me make myself clear. I want this game to be as close to the Xwing games as possible because they were truely great SW flight simulators. JTL is nothing but a cheap rip off of those games and fits more into an arcade game then a flight simulator. You call this game feature a clutch, but the fact is, it is how an Xwing and a TIE fighter work, and it is broken in JTL. Try reading the Xwing series and you will understand what I mean.
Atytula, Ducimus makes a very good point. When you're out looking for the enemy the best possible thing for you is surprise. If my enemy is lazy and can't hit a certain "target closest enemy player" button then he is going to die. This takes the place of a droid. Why do we have to have a droid tell you that an enemy is near you when there is button that can be easily hit? And besides, in JTL having a droid announce when such and such target has entered the system would get real old real quick. If you're at a spawn area trying to get loot you're killing over and over the same ships one after another. In my case the screen would be full of the same message "NPC so-so entered area." One, its annoying and two, it doesn't fit with the type of game JTL, and SWG in general, is.Do we use a droid on the ground to tell us when an enemy is in the area? Should we since we can use Astromech's on the ground? Its all about tactics and survivability and knowing your surrounding. And the bottom line is if you're overt then all you have to do is hit "closest enemy player" every few seconds. If you find that annoying that you should have to hit that button over and over then that's your problem and you'll most likely die.
xTekx wrote:
Atytula, Ducimus makes a very good point. When you're out looking for the enemy the best possible thing for you is surprise. If my enemy is lazy and can't hit a certain "target closest enemy player" button then he is going to die. This takes the place of a droid. Why do we have to have a droid tell you that an enemy is near you when there is button that can be easily hit? And besides, in JTL having a droid announce when such and such target has entered the system would get real old real quick. If you're at a spawn area trying to get loot you're killing over and over the same ships one after another. In my case the screen would be full of the same message "NPC so-so entered area." One, its annoying and two, it doesn't fit with the type of game JTL, and SWG in general, is.Do we use a droid on the ground to tell us when an enemy is in the area? Should we since we can use Astromech's on the ground? Its all about tactics and survivability and knowing your surrounding. And the bottom line is if you're overt then all you have to do is hit "closest enemy player" every few seconds. If you find that annoying that you should have to hit that button over and over then that's your problem and you'll most likely die.
xTekx, I don't want to be rude but you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly, one of the reasons droids and flight computers are on fighter crafts is for them to relay useful combat information to the pilot. Have you ever watched Top Gun? Remember Mavrick had a second person in his fighter. His job was to do everything except pilot the ship. Part of his job was to make sure the pilot knew the "situation" around him so he can concentrate on flying and his current target. If a new dot appears on radar, then the droid should inform the pilot of this.
It is no different in all the Xwing games in the past, and it shouldn't be any different in JTL. A pilot isn't considered good because he is constantly pressing a button to target the nearest player. Heck, if I wanted to, I can make a macro to do that and then I have my targeting system, but it is a hack solution, instead of having the droid do what it is supposed to.
As for annoying, if you have everything go into one window, then yeah. But I find it much easier and less annoying to have a combat window that tells me all system and combat messages. This includes what I looted, what I killed, droid messages, etc.. without bothering my chat window. Besides, if you really hated it, there is a program you can install in your droid that will silence him, and hence take out any message he may be sending you. There is no reason to not have this feature, other then I like to prey on the unaware players (who don't press target buttons constantly, or maybe were watching TV for a sec, or something to take their mind away from the game), which usually means you suck in PvE and you need to do something easier to have fun.
Starson wrote:
I think its funny that people think they are good pilots when they sneek up and one shot someone...hahahaha.
In defence with my colleges in this debate, I feel they are more thinking that they are good pilots because they can't be snuck up on and others can. The consider good pilots, pilots that spend there time doing more then just piloting, but also dealing with every variable out there completly themselves, and I am not saying this is bad, but we do have droids and computers for a reason.
Look at this counter example. Ywings and TIE agreesors can have a player control the turret. Two players go up in space with the Ywing and use TeamSpeak for communciation. While the pilot is concentrating on the main target, the turret can be keeping an eye on radar and using visuals to see if anyone is approaching and then just tell the pilot that there is an incoming enemy. What is being asked for is to have the droid/flight computer do this when you can't have that other player keeping a lookout.
atytula wrote:
Starson wrote:
I think its funny that people think they are good pilots when they sneek up and one shot someone...hahahaha.
In defence with my colleges in this debate, I feel they are more thinking that they are good pilots because they can't be snuck up on and others can. The consider good pilots, pilots that spend there time doing more then just piloting, but also dealing with every variable out there completly themselves, and I am not saying this is bad, but we do have droids and computers for a reason.
Look at this counter example. Ywings and TIE agreesors can have a player control the turret. Two players go up in space with the Ywing and use TeamSpeak for communciation. While the pilot is concentrating on the main target, the turret can be keeping an eye on radar and using visuals to see if anyone is approaching and then just tell the pilot that there is an incoming enemy. What is being asked for is to have the droid/flight computer do this when you can't have that other player keeping a lookout.
Yea I was just being a little harsh, but when I am overt, I allways pay attention, and took it for granted everyone does. And yes my mates and I use team speak, it makes all the difference in the world.
atytula wrote:
xTekx wrote:
Atytula, Ducimus makes a very good point. When you're out looking for the enemy the best possible thing for you is surprise. If my enemy is lazy and can't hit a certain "target closest enemy player" button then he is going to die. This takes the place of a droid. Why do we have to have a droid tell you that an enemy is near you when there is button that can be easily hit? And besides, in JTL having a droid announce when such and such target has entered the system would get real old real quick. If you're at a spawn area trying to get loot you're killing over and over the same ships one after another. In my case the screen would be full of the same message "NPC so-so entered area." One, its annoying and two, it doesn't fit with the type of game JTL, and SWG in general, is.Do we use a droid on the ground to tell us when an enemy is in the area? Should we since we can use Astromech's on the ground? Its all about tactics and survivability and knowing your surrounding. And the bottom line is if you're overt then all you have to do is hit "closest enemy player" every few seconds. If you find that annoying that you should have to hit that button over and over then that's your problem and you'll most likely die.
xTekx, I don't want to be rude but you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly, one of the reasons droids and flight computers are on fighter crafts is for them to relay useful combat information to the pilot. Have you ever watched Top Gun? Remember Mavrick had a second person in his fighter. His job was to do everything except pilot the ship. Part of his job was to make sure the pilot knew the "situation" around him so he can concentrate on flying and his current target. If a new dot appears on radar, then the droid should inform the pilot of this.
It is no different in all the Xwing games in the past, and it shouldn't be any different in JTL. A pilot isn't considered good because he is constantly pressing a button to target the nearest player. Heck, if I wanted to, I can make a macro to do that and then I have my targeting system, but it is a hack solution, instead of having the droid do what it is supposed to.
As for annoying, if you have everything go into one window, then yeah. But I find it much easier and less annoying to have a combat window that tells me all system and combat messages. This includes what I looted, what I killed, droid messages, etc.. without bothering my chat window. Besides, if you really hated it, there is a program you can install in your droid that will silence him, and hence take out any message he may be sending you. There is no reason to not have this feature, other then I like to prey on the unaware players (who don't press target buttons constantly, or maybe were watching TV for a sec, or something to take their mind away from the game), which usually means you suck in PvE and you need to do something easier to have fun.
xTekx wrote:
In my defense I do know what the hell i'm talking about. I flew xvt online a lot. Now I will say that you make a very valid point. But what I don't wnat to see is where it tells you everything about your enemy. "Enemy player insystem out 1500m from and moving towards you". something like that will ruin the game.
But at the same time think of this. When you go into space you are covert by default. You yourself HAVEto fly to a factional space station and declare to go overt. There is no perma overt like on the ground. So there is forgetting that you are overt. So in that sense You know that you can be attacked and attack in return. When you know you are attackable why forget to hit the button? Why be lazy? Your just up for FP? Well guess what you're still attackable so you'd better be ready to defend yourself if necessary. One of those means is "target nearest enemy player."
Ok Starson. You don't seem to realize something. Like I said up above you have to go declare when your inspace everytime you fly. If you forget that your overt then you will die. Its that simple. If I happen to catch someone unawares then so be it. He was a valid target because he went and declared when he launched into space.
But I like the competition when flying against a good flyer. A good flyer isn't going to be caught "unaware." When a good flyer is overt he's hitting his "target closest enemy player" button. So soon as I get into range he's turning towards me. Him being a good pilot he will most likely avoid hits on the head to head pass. Same with me. After that it turns into dogfighting and twists and turns and trying to out juke your enemy. And just because someone may get on my tail does NOT mean they will shoot me down. Same if I get on their tail. Doesn't mean I will shoot them down. That's why we are good pilots. There can be luck involved but DO NOT disreguard skill.
Also i won't be able to continue the debate until sunday.. i'm disappearing for the weekend lol.. so have fun with out me..
Again, words being put into my mouth.You took "3 Tie Fighters - Alpha Group - has entered the system" and turned it into"Enemy player insystem out 1500m from and moving towards you". And something like that WILL NOT ruin the game, it will make it more fun for everyone because confrontations will be at there fullest.All that I am asking for is for my droid to do his job. That is what he is there for, why should he spend all his time picking his metal nose instead of actuallydoing things like monitoring the radar???
Take this approach. When you hit the "closets enemy player button" what is happening? Your droid or flight computer is processing this information and then targeting the nearest enemy player. Take another angle, to a droid, what is a player? You are all relying on Non RP semantics of the game to play, and for those that ask for RP semantics, you just laugh and call them lazy.
The fact is, I could easily write a macro to every 10 seconds target the nearest enemy player (or something of that sort) and then I have my detection system, but ask yourself, am I a better pilot for it.
Coran_Sienar wrote:
Well, almost every flightsim will tell you when you have a missile or enemy fighter without proper IFF code incoming, and RL fighters also have such a warning. There simply is a bit too much stuff for the pilot to worry about to be forced to repeatedly hammer on a key
That's just not true. Some modern fighters have missile launch warnings and radar lock warnings. However, it won't do a damned thing about some bandit that snuck low on your six to make a shot with passive, heat-seeking missile. What's even worse is that some airborne units have the ability to literally flood the skies with their radar. That allows for radar-homing missiles to seek their targets, passively
If there actually is a key to detect enemy fighters or incoming missiles, automatically (without visual or radar scanning), it is a CHEAT. No hardcore flight sim player ever duels another player with such a crutch. Don't like pressing the key? Fine. Make a macro. But don't lie about the fact that such a function is common in other flight sims or that modern fighters have such a capability to automatically detect any enemy at any aspect at any range.
Don't believe me? Go to www.simhq.com and ask in any of the simulation forums about it.
So what do you translate IFF into then???
I sure know that the FF part stands for FRIEND/FOE (recognition) and its an automatic system that is even built into missiles/civilian aircraft. A while backthe french had a very bad problem with that system because they sold some missiles to a nation they later fought and they forgot to change the iff code so some mirages got *boom* by their very own missiles.
The problem is that we are not playing a hard core flight sim here its a totally wrong flight system for space combat on the first place and we have loads of peeps that are not hard core flight sim users, so lets get the difficulty a bit down and have more targets up there. Its pretty lonely in Deep Space most of the time. 
TomoRainer wrote:
As far as droid commands and the delays between them go, I'm pretty sure they're nearly all bugged. For instance: capacitor overcharge has a delay based on the level of the overcharge program. CO3's delay is 3x your droid interface's speed, for instance, and when I was re-leveling pilot, I seem to recall CO1 having a x1 delay and CO2 being at x2. However, EO and WO, no matter what their level, were at x5.
It'd be great if someone could confirm this, because it seems like an obvious bug (assuming I'm remembering this correctly) and one that wouldn't be too hard to fix. It'd cut the PVP downtime by a good deal, which seems to be something SOE's big on these days.
Hmm can't really confirm that, my neutral level 4 overcharges do actuallytake longer then the imperial engine/weapon overcharges on lvl 3.
Iawalein wrote:
I've PvPed, having been killed twice and having killed three times. In both kills, I had an imperial run in on boost, get JUST within target range, and loose two Mark IV missiles at me. I've rarely ever had a countermeasuer work, and ended up getting hit by both.
Hmm may I ask what countermeasures you tried? My sensor decoys so far never failed, neither in PVE nor in PVP and at least single missiles are totally useless in PVP.
I had my opponent fire 1 of each the biggest protons/concussions/seismic and an even image rec (wanted to see wether the description of thosebeing hard to evade is true) at me and all he got was a downed shield and a little scratch in my paintwork.
And I could just evade all of them with a max of 2 sensor decoys (they are lvl 3 equipment!!!).
To me it seems thatmissiles have been nerfed a bit too much.
xTekx wrote:
As to the missles in pvp. Personally I think right now, with no way to avoid or even see a missle until it hits you, using missles in pvp is gay. It takes no skill to launch a missle. I've been lucky in that I haven't run into any overts using missles. Its all been lasers and using true flying skill. You just had bad luck running into those types of people.
Uhm may I ask wether we play the same JTL?
I get a pretty nasty sound and an INCOMING MISSILE that flashes on my screen as soon as someone/something launched a missile at me. And as soon as I see that I throw out at least 2 sensor decoys (I have either 13 or 14 of those on board usually).
So far I have not been killed by a missile and none of my ships is equipped with missiles because they are utterly useless to a player with a good experimented countermeasures.
Only PVE point where missiles are handy to have are the shield subs of the corvettes.
And additionally to the takes no skill to launch a missile... It sure does not take skill to fire a missile at a sitting duck, but try to get a lock on a swirling/turning/rolling A-Wing or other superiority fighter. You'll have a hard time to keep the target locked for more then 2 secs.
Message Edited by Ewene on 02-12-2005 04:59 PM