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Thread: My ideas to give space PVP a bit more attraction
atytula wrote:When making a game based around SW, developers should always look at other SW games of the same gendre. In this case, Xwing. In all the Xwing games, the astromech droid or flight computer always told you when it detected a new target in the area. Newer Xwing games would show you a list of all fighters in the area and how much shields/armor they have. I don't see why having something like this would be bad. This is a game after all. If I needed to go AFK for 2 seconds or I alt-tabbed out of the game for a second, a little beep saying an enemy is withing 3km is not a bad thing at all.
Ducimus wrote:
Im gonna have to disagree. Situational awareness is YOUR JOB, not sony's. If you can't remember to habitually check for hostile players, and to keep your eyes open thats your fault. Not meaning as a flame, but next thing you know we'll have requests for auto targeting.
In my mind, someting that automatically does somethign that you should be doing yourself is much akin to AFK macroing.
Im picturing a big klaxon going off with "DANGER DAMGER WILL ROBONSON!" everytime someone overt steps into the area, and i think it's ridiculous. Next thing you know we'll have requests for auto tracking and auto targeting, and thats not a stetch.
You have a radar. You have the ablity to select hostile players out of all the radar clutter. You have a brain that is able to interpret information and make intelligent decisions, use them, they are powerful tools!
Besides that, the Xwing series games were not PvP games for the most part excepting XvT. So that comparision isnt a very good one.
1. Give us a SLIGHTLY higher damage reduction in PVP, while the skill it needs to evade on the head to head encounters is good and those 1shot kills are possible with crafted equipment (so basically any new master can buy a lvl 9 gun and it boils down to skill who dies first) I think we can live with 5-15% higher damage reduction.
Your ideas are great but before anything they need to fix the droid programs. Weapon Overload 3 might be where most of the problems stem. It boosts your damage output and reduces the energy/cap req'd to use the gun. It's supposed to boost energy and cap req'd to fire the gun as well as give a damage boost. Basically it's the advantages of Weapon Tuning 3 and Weapon Overload 3. Problem is it makes all the guns on ships 2x as powerful, so we can't really make a good descision on how much damage should be dropped until we balance the droid programs. Others may be bugged as well, I haven't use most of them.
I'd really like to see the values on our components change when we kick on droid programs so we can actually see what happens to them.
IE turn on wpn overload and you should see energy per shot go up, reactor energy req'd go up, and damage go up. That way we can tweak our ships much easier and see what we have to work with.
Iawalein wrote:
Well, your "it took 5-7 hits" to kill you statement is because you were playing with PA mates who were either being nicer than the standard PvPer or they had poor equipment.
I have an RE'ed reward shield gen that maxes at 2550. Armor that's 1000 HP. I have looted level 10 weapons with 4400 damage. I also have missiles that do 5-11k damage with .5/.5 "vs". It's clear to see that even with 25% reduced damage, either weapon can collapse a shield and destroy the armor in a single shot.
I've PvPed, having been killed twice and having killed three times. In both kills, I had an imperial run in on boost, get JUST within target range, and loose two Mark IV missiles at me. I've rarely ever had a countermeasuer work, and ended up getting hit by both.
Result? Immediate "one shot kill". I was PvPing before getting missile launchers of my own, so I'd suspect that some poor imperial will taste the same death should I chose to do it again.
But I think that several posters have hit this issue squarely. WHY PvP in space? Aside from Deepspace, why take the 10% decay on your ship and items when you get nothing for the exhcange? There would need to be a reward or reduced/eliminated decay for PvP in space to be a valid option for most players. I have done it on occasion for the faction, but it's easier and less dangerous to get faction on the ground with the decay as it is.
Oh where to start...?
Ok, your first statement about "because you were playing with PA mates who were either being nicer then the standard pvper or they had poor equipment." The 3 people who had Awings had RE'd reward Level 8 weapons, 95+ speed 70+ pyr engines, and decent enough shields. Tell me that's poor equipment? I say "5-7 hits" because they weren't able to get a good solid hit on me. In other words all there shots taht hit me were partial hits. That had everything to do with my flying and avoiding their laser blasts. We are a guild that flew in XvT a lot. We have pilots from other guilds that flew.A lot of us are very competative and when it comes to flying good we take pride in it. We like the competition of flying against another flyer. They know i'm a good flyer. I know theyare good flyers. We did everything we could to kill each other. And if you can't understand that then you're seriously missinga huge reason why people pvp.
As to the missles in pvp. Personally I think right now, with no way to avoid or even see a missle until it hits you, using missles in pvp is gay. It takes no skill to launch a missle. I've been lucky in that I haven't run into any overts using missles. Its all been lasers and using true flying skill. You just had bad luck running into those types of people.
My reason to pvp? Pride. The thrill and the competition. I would love there to actually be a real reason to pvp other then just wanting to fly against real players. But until that time people are going to have to ask themselves how much they want to get out of JTL. If they want to pvp but are afraid of decay then that's their loss. I will deal with decay. If that's the only thing I have to put up with to pvp in space then so be it i'll do it. But that's my personal choice.
Ducimus wrote:
atytula wrote:
When making a game based around SW, developers should always look at other SW games of the same gendre. In this case, Xwing. In all the Xwing games, the astromech droid or flight computer always told you when it detected a new target in the area. Newer Xwing games would show you a list of all fighters in the area and how much shields/armor they have. I don't see why having something like this would be bad. This is a game after all. If I needed to go AFK for 2 seconds or I alt-tabbed out of the game for a second, a little beep saying an enemy is withing 3km is not a bad thing at all.
Ducimus wrote:
Im gonna have to disagree. Situational awareness is YOUR JOB, not sony's. If you can't remember to habitually check for hostile players, and to keep your eyes open thats your fault. Not meaning as a flame, but next thing you know we'll have requests for auto targeting.
In my mind, someting that automatically does somethign that you should be doing yourself is much akin to AFK macroing.
Im picturing a big klaxon going off with "DANGER DAMGER WILL ROBONSON!" everytime someone overt steps into the area, and i think it's ridiculous. Next thing you know we'll have requests for auto tracking and auto targeting, and thats not a stetch.
You have a radar. You have the ablity to select hostile players out of all the radar clutter. You have a brain that is able to interpret information and make intelligent decisions, use them, they are powerful tools!
Besides that, the Xwing series games were not PvP games for the most part excepting XvT. So that comparision isnt a very good one.
I agree with everything you said there Ducimus.
People seem to be lazy when it comes to looking for overts in space. I can't seem to understand why. If your on the ground running around overt and are killing faction NPC's while overt all those NPC's are overt. If an opposing overt player suddenly enters the area you can bet they're ready when that person gets in range. And when something like that happens you dont' get any warning of "enemy player in the area, becareful." Why should we have something like that in space? Its the EXACT SAME thing. Only you're flying.
Situational awareness! Here let me say it again. SITUATIONAL AWARENESS! Able to understand that now? Its not hard to hit a button for "closest enemy player". And someone said that they weren't able to bind that command to there JS. If you're pvp'ing in space then that key is the first key that should be binded to your JS. Reguardless on the number of buttons your JS has. If you don't then don't come on here and complain if you can't target an overt when you can still hit whatever key it is on the keyboard. That's just plain lazy in my eyes.
xTekx wrote:
Situational awareness! Here let me say it again. SITUATIONAL AWARENESS! Able to understand that now? Its not hard to hit a button for "closest enemy player". And someone said that they weren't able to bind that command to there JS. If you're pvp'ing in space then that key is the first key that should be binded to your JS. Reguardless on the number of buttons your JS has. If you don't then don't come on here and complain if you can't target an overt when you can still hit whatever key it is on the keyboard. That's just plain lazy in my eyes.
SITUATIONAL AWARENESS is completly based on tools that inform you of your situation. Things as complicated as a radar, droid letting you know when an enemy has been detected to things as simple as your own eyes. The fact that we are not in a realXwing and are limited to asmall representation of space based on our monitor, the fact that we can't feel the Gs from flying, all this takes away fromour SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.
In every Xwing and Tie Fighter game out there, the droid/flight computer let you know when a new target entered the system (friendly, neutral or enemy). There is no reason why this is not in the game right now. The fact thatyou want to take advantage of a player that is not ready to get your kills says either a) you are a bad pilot and need whatever you can get or b) enjoy griefing others. I am not saying that this feature makes or breaks this game, but to say that it is a bad idea to add is horribly wrong.
Think about this for a minute there fella.
1.) Xwing and Tie fighter games were singleplayer games.
2.) Would you want to play a PvP game where the game informed your enemy of your movements? I think not!
>>The fact that you want to take advantage of a player that is not ready
Bovine scats.
Let me tell you about situational awareness while overt, grinding faction points:
.
- Before i even press the "launch" button, i type in /anon
- next thing i do after going overt in space, is typing in /who, making note of who's in sector, the guild tag, and profession title.
- This is in conjunction with the standard player targeting keys. Any player i find that is not overt, but anon (cause they didnt show up on /who) is suspect.
- Other than that its just pressing "target nearest hostle player" every 5, 10 seconds or so. ITS NOT HARD TO DO!
I have yet to have a player catch me unaware or offguard, i always see them coming.
So this leaves me wondering if this suggestion is born out of lazyness, lack of an aggressive attitude, or lack of skill?
Ducimus wrote:
>>>n every Xwing and Tie Fighter game out there, the droid/flight computer let you know when a new target entered the system (friendly, neutral or enemy). There is no reason why this is not in the game right now
Think about this for a minute there fella.
1.) Xwing and Tie fighter games were singleplayer games.
2.) Would you want to play a PvP game where the game informed your enemy of your movements? I think not!
>>The fact that you want to take advantage of a player that is not ready
Bovine scats.
Let me tell you about situational awareness while overt, grinding faction points:
.
- Before i even press the "launch" button, i type in /anon
- next thing i do after going overt in space, is typing in /who, making note of who's in sector, the guild tag, and profession title.
- This is in conjunction with the standard player targeting keys. Any player i find that is not overt, but anon (cause they didnt show up on /who) is suspect.
- Other than that its just pressing "target nearest hostle player" every 5, 10 seconds or so. ITS NOT HARD TO DO!
I have yet to have a player catch me unaware or offguard, i always see them coming.
So this leaves me wondering if this suggestion is born out of lazyness, lack of an aggressive attitude, or lack of skill?
It'd be great if someone could confirm this, because it seems like an obvious bug (assuming I'm remembering this correctly) and one that wouldn't be too hard to fix. It'd cut the PVP downtime by a good deal, which seems to be something SOE's big on these days.
Oh man..... does someone really need to explain this?
If you think theres no difference between how single players games work, and how a compediatve PvP multiplayer game works, you are truly dillusional.
Here's the biggest difference.
You are not fighting an NPC. Your fighting a THINKING opponent.
When games are made, and designes are drawn, how the game is crafted and balanced is based on what kind of game it is. Singleplayer games can do what they like by virtue of you being the only person playing it. There's no balance issues involved at all, no other people to consider, YOU are the center of attention.
Not so here.
A PvP game has two sides, each side has to be balanced in order to produce a level playing field. You have more than one person playing, all sides need equity. You are not the center of attention. The overall scope of all players combined is. You are thinking in terms of defense, but your totally ignoring offense. You could be playing both, but you seem to be focused on defense. Honestly i think your just upset cause you weren't paying attention and got smoked like a cheap cigar. Now you want to change the rules of the game to provide you with a crutch, to better suit your own playstyle.
Can anyone imagine a Tatical game (be it an RTS, FPS, or MMO) where the game itself tells you of what the enemy is doing? Likewise, can anyone imagine a tatical game where the game itself tells the enemy what your doing instead of him trying to find out for himself? Its utterly obsurd. To put in another term, its like playing a RTS game and having one player of the game with a "no fog" cheat code enabled.
Message Edited by Ducimus on 02-11-2005 10:07 AM
Ducimus wrote:
>>Why does this have to be different because it is MM? An Xwing is an Xwing, a TIE fighter is a TIE fighter. The type of game does not change this.
Oh man..... does someone really need to explain this?
If you think theres no difference between how single players games work, and how a compediatve PvP multiplayer game works, you are truly dillusional.
Here's the biggest difference.
You are not fighting an NPC. Your fighting a THINKING opponent.
When games are made, and designes are drawn, how the game is crafted and balanced is based on what kind of game it is. Singleplayer games can do what they like by virtue of you being the only person playing it. There's no balance issues involved at all, no other people to consider, YOU are the center of attention.
Not so here.
A PvP game has two sides, each side has to be balanced in order to produce a level playing field. You have more than one person playing, all sides need equity. You are not the center of attention. The overall scope of all players combined is. You are thinking in terms of defense, but your totally ignoring offense. You could be playing both, but you seem to be focused on defense. Honestly i think your just upset cause you weren't paying attention and got smoked like a cheap cigar. Now you want to change the rules of the game to provide you with a crutch, to better suit your own playstyle.
Can anyone imagine a Tatical game (be it an RTS, FPS, or MMO) where the game itself tells you of what the enemy is doing? Likewise, can anyone imagine a tatical game where the game itself tells the enemy what your doing instead of him trying to find out for himself? Its utterly obsurd. To put in another term, its like playing a RTS game and having one player of the game with a "no fog" cheat code enabled.
Message Edited by Ducimus on 02-11-2005 10:07 AM
LISTEN TO WHAT I AM SAYING. If you did, you would stop repeating things I never said. No-one asked for the game to "tell you of what the enemy is doing". Far from it. We are just asking for our flight computer/droid to tell us when a new radar target is aquired.
Secondly, play Xwing vs TIE fighter or Xwing alliance before you tell me the Xwing games are all single player. They are multiplayer games, more so with Xwing vs Tie fighter then JTL. In those games when you fly in an Xwing, your astromech droid beeps and tells you a new target has entered the system (whether it was NPC or not).
Thirdly, I have NEVER been vaped in space, as I have never PvPed. I have long since abandoned PvP on the ground due to all the problems and griefing that happens, and when I heard that space PvP sucks as well, I just stick to PvE. Maybe when it gets fixed I will join in. Even so, I feel that this missing feature of JTL is useful in both PvE and PvP.
Let me make myself clear. I want this game to be as close to the Xwing games as possible because they were truely great SW flight simulators. JTL is nothing but a cheap rip off of those games and fits more into an arcade game then a flight simulator. You call this game feature a clutch, but the fact is, it is how an Xwing and a TIE fighter work, and it is broken in JTL. Try reading the Xwing series and you will understand what I mean.
Ducimus wrote:
>>>n every Xwing and Tie Fighter game out there, the droid/flight computer let you know when a new target entered the system (friendly, neutral or enemy). There is no reason why this is not in the game right now
Think about this for a minute there fella.
1.) Xwing and Tie fighter games were singleplayer games.
2.) Would you want to play a PvP game where the game informed your enemy of your movements? I think not!
Why does this have to be different because it is MM? An Xwing is an Xwing, a TIE fighter is a TIE fighter. The type of game does not change this. And don't put words into my mouth. I never said to be informed of every movement, I said that we should be informed when a ship enters radar. "A TIE fighter Alpha 3 has entered the system".
>>The fact that you want to take advantage of a player that is not ready
Bovine scats.
Let me tell you about situational awareness while overt, grinding faction points:
.
- Before i even press the "launch" button, i type in /anon
- next thing i do after going overt in space, is typing in /who, making note of who's in sector, the guild tag, and profession title.
- This is in conjunction with the standard player targeting keys. Any player i find that is not overt, but anon (cause they didnt show up on /who) is suspect.
- Other than that its just pressing "target nearest hostle player" every 5, 10 seconds or so. ITS NOT HARD TO DO!
I have yet to have a player catch me unaware or offguard, i always see them coming.
So this leaves me wondering if this suggestion is born out of lazyness, lack of an aggressive attitude, or lack of skill?
First off, if you spend that much time worrying about who is in system using game features, I will have vaped you before you see me coming. Anyone who PvPes goes anon, and will not be found on a simple /who search. In my opinion, even if they were, you are pretty cheap using a system that is not RP like when we are asking for one that is. The fact is, a game is not fun if it is a chore, and you would much prefer it be a chore. Why do you care if we ask the devs to make the game more fun??? How does this affect you negatively???? The only way I can think of is your ability to kill by surprise due to a horrible radar system, a very cheap and low tactic.
Don't take this as a shot on you, but on the argument. I just dislike people using loopholes in the gaming system and fight hard to prevent simple game mechanics to be added that can only better the game. Let me break down the idea I have a bit so you see how it would work.
Every Player and Non-Player is assigned a callsign in space. As a player, you can assign your own, but it always is preceeded by your ship type. Your ingame name is not visible in space, only your callsign. When you enter a sector (not system) every player and non-playerin the system is alerted to the new target on the radar (maybe there can be a skill to hide from radar). In order to prevent large number of messages, It will label the group entering the sector instead ("3 Tie Fighters - Alpha Group - has entered the system".
I am not looking for something complicated or to make too easy, but I will always stand up for making the game better.