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OddjobXL wrote:

My experiences in PvP are nasty, brutish and short. Either I jump someone unawares or my big old Krayt becomes swiss cheese. Privateers have a tough time of it. The Deep Space bug doesn't allow us to go in factionally and we suffer from the lack ofa good dogfighting frame. It should, in theory,all work out pretty well because,after all, your average privateer by definition is a trade raider. Someone that takes out merchant tonnage. That means frames along the lines of what we have now. Lots of firepower and speed, even some room for cargo, but not so much need to defend against fighters. If you're doing your job right there won't -be- fighters around or you should be able to outrun them. Where we're really screwed is that there isn't any real privateering action to be found. No cargos. No prize ships. But we still do have the single best PvEfighter - The Krayt.

Frankly, I don't do PvP anymore. Is it because I suck? Could be. Is it because the firepower that hits me generally knocks me out before I can do more than blink? Could be. Is it because decay and lengthy stays in a hospital where I'm more likely to find tumblers than real medics is a pain in the behind? Well, there is that too. Or is it simply the nature of the situation we've got where you've only got two kinds of PvP - bouncing unsuspecting pilots (not that emotionally fulfilling for me but a necessity given the limitations of my ship and/or skills) or organized battles which really serve no practical role in the GCW and which generally take far more time to organize, with the attendant waiting around and general sense of barelyunder controlchaos,than the actual battle itself - which due to general awareness always favors the more maneuverable ships with the microsized RE'd reward or pre-nerfed gear. People with the better ships will generally do better in dogfighting and this positive reinforcement leads to more dogfighting. All the while they're learning better personal piloting skills and techniques.

Ultimately not everyone can be aces and no amount of rejiggering damage potential and protection is going to change that.Some folks are going to have to settle for being supporting pilots. That might be more attractive if the overarching structure actually -catered- to the idea of vital roles forfolks who aren't the best of the best in PvP.

That means people who can be effective in a PvE setting should have some effect on battles if indirectly.And thereshould be more strategic factors that figure into the logistics of PvP conflicts. While it can be called "space gank squadding" and "space farming", the reality is that space farmers and thosewho try to get 'em are playing a good role in the GCW. It's fairly realistic. And the nature of space (being able to run with a hyperjump if you're situationally aware, learning to fly in groups for safety, the lack of access to spatial for trash talking, and the general maturity and humility that comes with simming for some reason) keeps it from being the parade of the obscene weso often seein ground PvP. Instead it's a pretty Star Warsy and exciting way to spend some time even if your goal, like mine, is actually avoiding PvP in order to keep farming FP (or raidingbehind enemy lines for resources as I tend to RP it).

But there needs to bemuch more thinking along these lines.Smugglers need to smuggle. Privateers need to raidmerchant shipping and merchant shipping/free trading needroles in space. There needs to be an economic ecology underpinning the logistics of the GCW in space evenmoreso than on the ground. It's easy to get lost in the brush planetside - so many things going on, activities, distractions.But in space everything is laid out and naked to the eye. There are planets and ships and not much else.They need to be more nakedly relevant rather than abstract sources of loot and treasure.

Dynamic campaigns in games like Freelancer point a bit of a the way buta stronger model is the lesser known Terminus which featured a truly dynamic economy andintegratedlive multiplayer (and even AI instigated and undertaken) bountyhunting along withorganized militaries spawning dynamic missions of various types for players andAI alike based onreal time developments in aconstantly changingwar. Terminus is little known because it was done by a small shop and wasn't as pretty as it could have been. But the underlaying mechanics of the universe, not to mention ship design which really caused players to consider special roles and lateral customization tradeoffs rather than simple linear power increases make it something all space simmers should have some familiarity with, and certainly the devs if they want a strong insight into where JtL needs to go.

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OddjobXL wrote:

My experiences in PvP are nasty, brutish and short. Either I jump someone unawares or my big old Krayt becomes swiss cheese. Privateers have a tough time of it. The Deep Space bug doesn't allow us to go in factionally and we suffer from the lack ofa good dogfighting frame. It should, in theory,all work out pretty well because,after all, your average privateer by definition is a trade raider. Someone that takes out merchant tonnage. That means frames along the lines of what we have now. Lots of firepower and speed, even some room for cargo, but not so much need to defend against fighters. If you're doing your job right there won't -be- fighters around or you should be able to outrun them. Where we're really screwed is that there isn't any real privateering action to be found. No cargos. No prize ships. But we still do have the single best PvEfighter - The Krayt.

Frankly, I don't do PvP anymore. Is it because I suck? Could be. Is it because the firepower that hits me generally knocks me out before I can do more than blink? Could be. Is it because decay and lengthy stays in a hospital where I'm more likely to find tumblers than real medics is a pain in the behind? Well, there is that too. Or is it simply the nature of the situation we've got where you've only got two kinds of PvP - bouncing unsuspecting pilots (not that emotionally fulfilling for me but a necessity given the limitations of my ship and/or skills) or organized battles which really serve no practical role in the GCW and which generally take far more time to organize, with the attendant waiting around and general sense of barelyunder controlchaos,than the actual battle itself - which due to general awareness always favors the more maneuverable ships with the microsized RE'd reward or pre-nerfed gear. People with the better ships will generally do better in dogfighting and this positive reinforcement leads to more dogfighting. All the while they're learning better personal piloting skills and techniques.

Ultimately not everyone can be aces and no amount of rejiggering damage potential and protection is going to change that.Some folks are going to have to settle for being supporting pilots. That might be more attractive if the overarching structure actually -catered- to the idea of vital roles forfolks who aren't the best of the best in PvP.

That means people who can be effective in a PvE setting should have some effect on battles if indirectly.And thereshould be more strategic factors that figure into the logistics of PvP conflicts. While it can be called "space gank squadding" and "space farming", the reality is that space farmers and thosewho try to get 'em are playing a good role in the GCW. It's fairly realistic. And the nature of space (being able to run with a hyperjump if you're situationally aware, learning to fly in groups for safety, the lack of access to spatial for trash talking, and the general maturity and humility that comes with simming for some reason) keeps it from being the parade of the obscene weso often seein ground PvP. Instead it's a pretty Star Warsy and exciting way to spend some time even if your goal, like mine, is actually avoiding PvP in order to keep farming FP (or raidingbehind enemy lines for resources as I tend to RP it).

But there needs to bemuch more thinking along these lines.Smugglers need to smuggle. Privateers need to raidmerchant shipping and merchant shipping/free trading needroles in space. There needs to be an economic ecology underpinning the logistics of the GCW in space evenmoreso than on the ground. It's easy to get lost in the brush planetside - so many things going on, activities, distractions.But in space everything is laid out and naked to the eye. There are planets and ships and not much else.They need to be more nakedly relevant rather than abstract sources of loot and treasure.

Dynamic campaigns in games like Freelancer point a bit of a the way buta stronger model is the lesser known Terminus which featured a truly dynamic economy andintegratedlive multiplayer (and even AI instigated and undertaken) bountyhunting along withorganized militaries spawning dynamic missions of various types for players andAI alike based onreal time developments in aconstantly changingwar. Terminus is little known because it was done by a small shop and wasn't as pretty as it could have been. But the underlaying mechanics of the universe, not to mention ship design which really caused players to consider special roles and lateral customization tradeoffs rather than simple linear power increases make it something all space simmers should have some familiarity with, and certainly the devs if they want a strong insight into where JtL needs to go.

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PvP works pretty well for interceptors. Not too bad for space superiority fighters. Very poorly for attack fighters and bombers. Now I would rather see a roll for all ships. The basic ideas for space PvP is solid. It's a lot more fun than ground PvP even for a Y-winger like me. However there is nothing to do in PvP but dogfight and since that's the case there is no roll for any ship heavier than an interceptor. Speed is everything especially since everyone has plenty of firepower with the overload programs. That's the problem I think. If you are a speed freak then you probably think PvP is great but if your a bomber pilot your just one very large and very easy to hit target. There should be benefits to each ship design. In PvE there are but in PvP the only factor is speed and maneuverability. The overload programs tend to make the gap even larger.
Let's take the Alliance starfighters. The A-wing is the interceptor. The X-wing is the space superiority fighter. The Y-wing is the attack fighter. The B-wing is the bomber. In Theory the A-wing should be the fastest and hardest to hit but it should suffer real problem with firepower. The X-wing should be good all around but not excel at any one roll. The Y-wing should be a survivor able to take several hits before going down but not really a dogfighter. The B-wing should be the tank. Very hard for an interceptor to take down and packing a lot of firepower itself but hard as heck to dogfight with. That should be the trade off. With the overload programs there isn't much trade off. An interceptor (as in class of fighter) can take down a bomber in moments. Just as easily as any other ship out there. Multi player ships suffer even worse from this. They just aren't the threat they should be. If the Multi player ships were much harder to kill then there would be a roll for attack craft and bombers in PvP. At the moment there isn't. It's get an A-wing and run these programs. Like the ground is get comp, get buffed, eat these foods. It is nice at least that both sides don't look exactly alike. In order for PvP to be dynamic I think we need ships as hard to take down as the Corvette and Gunships. That way us bomber jocks would have a roll. I can see only one problem. A group could make the corvette run easily with their own vetts and gunships. Solution. These ships can't hyper into Kessle.

I don't want PvP to last too long either. Not like is has been on the ground. Still on Starsider I've seen Wing vs Wing sized engagements resolved in two minutes and under. The only reason the “battles” last any longer is that we allow people to re-enter combat up till the last 10 minutes which usually usually doesn't last 10 minutes.

they need to do away with droids and droid commands, and we would be in good shape. it would add challenge to pve, it would make light fighters easier to hit, and it would halve damage output. they also need to rebalance all ship components, so there arent people out there with pre nerf engines out running everyone else.

the problem is not how long battles last right now. put me in my advanced agianst some of the best a-wing pilots and we can have a duel that lasts upwards of 10 minutes. an a-wing with a skilled pilot who knows how to evade fire takes more luck than skill to hit. if we did away with engine overload 4 then that awing is flying ALOT slower and cant turn near as sharp. since you wouldnt be able to do a 180 in a fraction of a second anymore, the fight would become alot more tactical than the random twitch style flying we have now.

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Imaridril wrote:

PvP right now "works" for light fighter vs. light fighter battles, and it even "works" in a lot of situations for light fighter vs. heavy fighter battles. PvP involvinga heavy fighters vs. another heavy fighter still needs a lot of work. Two good pilots facing off in an A-wing and TIE Advanced can easily have a battle that lasts 30 seconds or so, and that's with WO3 and the Capacitor Overloads still broken. On the other hand, if you have two good pilots facing off in say a Krayt and a B-wing, the fight will rarely last longer than3 or 4 seconds. In fact, its gotten to the point where if you fly a heavy fighter, and you're good with your guns, and you have a low-ping connection, the best strategy is to just cut to 50% throttle when your opponents is still way out of range, don't dodge,and just start shooting at him. At worst he'll do the same thing and you'll get a double kill, and at best you'll nail him at nearly max range. Basically, this means you can win or force a tie the majority of the time. Obviously something is wrong when that's the case.

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shooting for a draw? good strategy. a simple jink and boost50m out of gun range and reaim beats that heavy fighter scenario.

the only thing wrong with space pvp is the POB ship issue, and the odd exploit/bug.

Message Edited by quadpers0n on 04-27-2005 01:05 AM

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AzzixxSWG wrote:

1st hit take out shields (except vs pre-nerf and exploited shields)

2nd hit takes out any armor + some components

3rd hit death or incap

Thats not skillfull combatthats luck or unbalanced combat.

Most give up trying to PvP simply because engagements last a few seconds. Even if damage were reduced the presence of prenerfed and exploited shields unbalances the whole game.

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Message Edited by quadpers0n on 04-27-2005 01:04 AM