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Thread: PVP ROCKS in JTL What are people talking about?
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SpecWar1
Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:19 pm
#1
I was PVPing today. It is one of the most exciting events you can play as a pilot!
Im a merc and im here to say PVP is perfect in space. Why people dont do it more often is beyond me. No decay, faction farming at its best in deep space (not for me though) and exciting engagements along with specials that work!
Bria's Deep space and Roleplaying is growing!
That is right, I roleplay and PVP and what!!!
It freaking rocks, I love this server with all the PVPers and Rolepayers!
Cant wait for the CU now! Mining, PVP balanced, range rocks.... SHIPS ROCK!
Want something to do go PVP in space and feel the adrenaline rush as you live on the edge.....
Akoogari
Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:39 pm
#3
I love it to, albeit if they did lower the pvp damage it would make for some longer and more interesting battles.
Ducimus
Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:43 pm
#4
I think you should replace the word 'intresting' with the word 'tedious'. 
Tumbler2002
Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:07 pm
#5
SpecWar1 wrote:I was PVPing today. It is one of the most exciting events you can play as a pilot!Im a merc and im here to say PVP is perfect in space. Why people dont do it more often is beyond me. No decay, faction farming at its best in deep space (not for me though) and exciting engagements along with specials that work!Bria's Deep space and Roleplaying is growing!That is right, I roleplay and PVP and what!!!It freaking rocks, I love this server with all the PVPers and Rolepayers!Cant wait for the CU now! Mining, PVP balanced, range rocks.... SHIPS ROCK!Want something to do go PVP in space and feel the adrenaline rush as you live on the edge.....
Yeah.... then why did I attack a YT-1300 today and it exploded in 1-2 hits. 7 ppl aboard, I sent a warning, and still combat was instant.
Sadly it is the most exciting thing a pilot can do but that isn't saying much.
Starson
Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:25 pm
#6
These people that say 2 shot kill's are the best thing in the word, and claim they played the old x vrs tie games.....I just wanna know what version you had. I remember a good 2 or 3min. fight (well except for tie's with no shields, which we don't have in game),and if you were not persistent the shields would recharge. I think the damage ratio should be the sameas pve, where you would have to really really out fly your opponent.
Woss
Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:51 pm
#7
I agree!
PVP in deep space, while perhaps a bit brief, feels very much like what I came here for... STAR WARS!
How many ships you see last longer than the first hit in the movies anyway? Two, three, five. Tops.
Sure beats this "I'm going to stand in place in spin around like a ballerina with red ribbons trailing off my hands over and over again until you either fall over or instantly heal every hit I land with magic drugs" stuff we got on the ground. 
SpecWar1
Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:19 pm
#8
Tumbler2002 wrote:
SpecWar1 wrote:
I was PVPing today. It is one of the most exciting events you can play as a pilot!
Im a merc and im here to say PVP is perfect in space. Why people dont do it more often is beyond me. No decay, faction farming at its best in deep space (not for me though) and exciting engagements along with specials that work!
Bria's Deep space and Roleplaying is growing!
That is right, I roleplay and PVP and what!!!
It freaking rocks, I love this server with all the PVPers and Rolepayers!
Cant wait for the CU now! Mining, PVP balanced, range rocks.... SHIPS ROCK!
Want something to do go PVP in space and feel the adrenaline rush as you live on the edge.....
Yeah.... then why did I attack a YT-1300 today and it exploded in 1-2 hits. 7 ppl aboard, I sent a warning, and still combat was instant.
Sadly it is the most exciting thing a pilot can do but that isn't saying much.
I dont think YT 1300s have enough armor, sheild and firepower in deepspace. PVE it is pretty good if you know how to fly and have a capable crew.
yet if a YT 1300 steps in deep space it gets blow to hell..... Yeah i agree it should be tweaked. But the fighters, the b-wing, the A-wing the ties all dog fight. I was flying a firespray and I have my short comings too.
Firespray = big target high arsonal and ordnance
b-wing = big guns, high damage output but very poor manuvering.
A-wing =lower damage output but.... the A-wing has manuverability
Krayt = High damage output and pretty good ordnance, but a large target as the firespray. Lesser ship then firespray but good.
Tie fighters= almost like A wings...
I find these ships i went against and beat have strenghts and weakness. I have gone up against the ties as well. Wonderful game, wonderful implamentation of PVP even though multiplayer ships arent a part of PVP.
I agree again that multiplayer ships should be a hell of alot stronger....
GrimBear
Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:21 am
#9
Woss wrote:
How many ships you see last longer than the first hit in the movies anyway? Two, three, five. Tops.
Thats a trend in many series and movies, hero's get clipped or missed ... everyone else dies in one shot. It'sabout visualdrama and making the hero's appear that much more special.
The majority of successful space combat games give fighters much more durability, such as how PvE works inJTL right now. It's aboutplayability.
The PvP system in space is NOT perfect ... if it was perfect ... then multiplayer ships would be the kick ass tanks they are meant to be.
PvP coming down to 1 to 3 hits to score a kill does not make PvP broken. It does however mean it's playability level is lower and PvP accessibility is not a good as it could be. Sure theres an argument that those who find it too hard should practise and not complain, but on the other hand, you have to accept that not everyone is top class at space combat, but a lot of people want to do it anyway. Bump it so ships need say 3-9 hits to score a kill and it makes it somewhat more accessible and may pull in more pvp playersand the top pilots will still remain the top pilots at the end of the day.
Imaridril
Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:45 am
#10
PvP right now "works" for light fighter vs. light fighter battles, and it even "works" in a lot of situations for light fighter vs. heavy fighter battles. PvP involvinga heavy fighters vs. another heavy fighter still needs a lot of work. Two good pilots facing off in an A-wing and TIE Advanced can easily have a battle that lasts 30 seconds or so, and that's with WO3 and the Capacitor Overloads still broken. On the other hand, if you have two good pilots facing off in say a Krayt and a B-wing, the fight will rarely last longer than3 or 4 seconds. In fact, its gotten to the point where if you fly a heavy fighter, and you're good with your guns, and you have a low-ping connection, the best strategy is to just cut to 50% throttle when your opponents is still way out of range, don't dodge,and just start shooting at him. At worst he'll do the same thing and you'll get a double kill, and at best you'll nail him at nearly max range. Basically, this means you can win or force a tie the majority of the time. Obviously something is wrong when that's the case.
I think part of the problem is that over time, everyone's firepower has steadily been going up, while at the same time everyone's shielding has been staying constant. Take myself and my Rihk for example. I started with some run of the mill crafted guns, then I moved on to a none-RE'd level 8 quest reward gun plus a few other none-RE'd level 6 and level 8 guns. After awhile I got the level 8 reward gun RE'd, plus I picked up some decent none-RE'd level 9 guns. Overtime I got some of the level 9 guns RE'd and I picked up some decent none-RE'd level 10s. Soon I dropped the level 8 reward gun and was using only level 9 and level 10 guns. Not much longer after that I was using all RE'd level 10 guns with 4700 max damage. Now I'm on the verge of REing two new level 10 guns that will have 5200 and 5100 max damage respectively. And throughout this whole progression, my level 8 reward shield has been the best shield possible. The original 25% PvP damage reduction that the devs put in shortly after JTL launched has now pretty much been wiped away by most serious PvPers steadily increasing their firepower. Heck, as soon as I get my two new guns RE'd I'll be upping my PvP ship's firepower by 25% in one swoop, and I'll even be freeing up some mass in the process.
SpecWar1
Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:11 am
#11
Imaridril wrote:
PvP right now "works" for light fighter vs. light fighter battles, and it even "works" in a lot of situations for light fighter vs. heavy fighter battles. PvP involvinga heavy fighters vs. another heavy fighter still needs a lot of work. Two good pilots facing off in an A-wing and TIE Advanced can easily have a battle that lasts 30 seconds or so, and that's with WO3 and the Capacitor Overloads still broken. On the other hand, if you have two good pilots facing off in say a Krayt and a B-wing, the fight will rarely last longer than3 or 4 seconds. In fact, its gotten to the point where if you fly a heavy fighter, and you're good with your guns, and you have a low-ping connection, the best strategy is to just cut to 50% throttle when your opponents is still way out of range, don't dodge,and just start shooting at him. At worst he'll do the same thing and you'll get a double kill, and at best you'll nail him at nearly max range. Basically, this means you can win or force a tie the majority of the time. Obviously something is wrong when that's the case.
I think part of the problem is that over time, everyone's firepower has steadily been going up, while at the same time everyone's shielding has been staying constant. Take myself and my Rihk for example. I started with some run of the mill crafted guns, then I moved on to a none-RE'd level 8 quest reward gun plus a few other none-RE'd level 6 and level 8 guns. After awhile I got the level 8 reward gun RE'd, plus I picked up some decent none-RE'd level 9 guns. Overtime I got some of the level 9 guns RE'd and I picked up some decent none-RE'd level 10s. Soon I dropped the level 8 reward gun and was using only level 9 and level 10 guns. Not much longer after that I was using all RE'd level 10 guns with 4700 max damage. Now I'm on the verge of REing two new level 10 guns that will have 5200 and 5100 max damage respectively. And throughout this whole progression, my level 8 reward shield has been the best shield possible. The original 25% PvP damage reduction that the devs put in shortly after JTL launched has now pretty much been wiped away by most serious PvPers steadily increasing their firepower. Heck, as soon as I get my two new guns RE'd I'll be upping my PvP ship's firepower by 25% in one swoop, and I'll even be freeing up some mass in the process.
I must have died 20 times yesterday due to a B-wing but I freaking loved the battles as we had not 1 vs 1 but several vs several.
I have killed both Imperial and Rebel and let me say this, you rebels have some serious ships! They are either, fast and deadly, or slow and deadly!
Yes I agree that some ships are way to powerful and 1 strike and its done. I hope they tweak it a bit because let me just say this, It is fun patrolling for ships in the Deep end of space! Fun Fun Fun. Im a PVPer on the ground and in space so I am enjoying this aspect now. Ground I will go back to after the CU. I am looking forward to the ground aspect of PVP once again. Though the CU offers slower combat, the line of sight rule is awsome. I have PVPed on the test server and have rested behind walls and such! So lets just say that the CU though flawed in many ways has pluses.
This game will be the best out there... Two games rolled up into one.
Salco
Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:47 am
#12
If you like large scale PvP battles, come to Starsider; we have large engagements every weekend. On that note, PvP damage needs to be adjusted a tad. Yes, it shouldn't take too many hits to kill another player-target, but it also shouldn't be just one or two hits. Half the fun of piloting, IMO, is the actual dogfight itself; corkscrewing, immelmanns, dodging behind objects, just all around trying to not get hit and try and hit the other guy. The art of the dogfight is getting amputated by the 1-to-2-hit thing, because you or the target are dead before you can really get into it. During one battle, I blasted two X-Wings in my TIE Interceptor in the space of 10 seconds. Doesn't that seem a little ridiculous?
Message Edited by Salco on 04-22-2005 07:47 AM
OddjobXL
Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:09 am
#13
My experiences in PvP are nasty, brutish and short. Either I jump someone unawares or my big old Krayt becomes swiss cheese. Privateers have a tough time of it. The Deep Space bug doesn't allow us to go in factionally and we suffer from the lack ofa good dogfighting frame. It should, in theory,all work out pretty well because,after all, your average privateer by definition is a trade raider. Someone that takes out merchant tonnage. That means frames along the lines of what we have now. Lots of firepower and speed, even some room for cargo, but not so much need to defend against fighters. If you're doing your job right there won't -be- fighters around or you should be able to outrun them. Where we're really screwed is that there isn't any real privateering action to be found. No cargos. No prize ships. But we still do have the single best PvEfighter - The Krayt.
Frankly, I don't do PvP anymore. Is it because I suck? Could be. Is it because the firepower that hits me generally knocks me out before I can do more than blink? Could be. Is it because decay and lengthy stays in a hospital where I'm more likely to find tumblers than real medics is a pain in the behind? Well, there is that too. Or is it simply the nature of the situation we've got where you've only got two kinds of PvP - bouncing unsuspecting pilots (not that emotionally fulfilling for me but a necessity given the limitations of my ship and/or skills) or organized battles which really serve no practical role in the GCW and which generally take far more time to organize, with the attendant waiting around and general sense of barelyunder controlchaos,than the actual battle itself - which due to general awareness always favors the more maneuverable ships with the microsized RE'd reward or pre-nerfed gear. People with the better ships will generally do better in dogfighting and this positive reinforcement leads to more dogfighting. All the while they're learning better personal piloting skills and techniques.
Ultimately not everyone can be aces and no amount of rejiggering damage potential and protection is going to change that.Some folks are going to have to settle for being supporting pilots. That might be more attractive if the overarching structure actually -catered- to the idea of vital roles forfolks who aren't the best of the best in PvP.
That means people who can be effective in a PvE setting should have some effect on battles if indirectly.And thereshould be more strategic factors that figure into the logistics of PvP conflicts. While it can be called "space gank squadding" and "space farming", the reality is that space farmers and thosewho try to get 'em are playing a good role in the GCW. It's fairly realistic. And the nature of space (being able to run with a hyperjump if you're situationally aware, learning to fly in groups for safety, the lack of access to spatial for trash talking, and the general maturity and humility that comes with simming for some reason) keeps it from being the parade of the obscene weso often seein ground PvP. Instead it's a pretty Star Warsy and exciting way to spend some time even if your goal, like mine, is actually avoiding PvP in order to keep farming FP (or raidingbehind enemy lines for resources as I tend to RP it).
But there needs to bemuch more thinking along these lines.Smugglers need to smuggle. Privateers need to raidmerchant shipping and merchant shipping/free trading needroles in space. There needs to be an economic ecology underpinning the logistics of the GCW in space evenmoreso than on the ground. It's easy to get lost in the brush planetside - so many things going on, activities, distractions.But in space everything is laid out and naked to the eye. There are planets and ships and not much else.They need to be more nakedly relevant rather than abstract sources of loot and treasure.
Dynamic campaigns in games like Freelancer point a bit of a the way buta stronger model is the lesser known Terminus which featured a truly dynamic economy andintegratedlive multiplayer (and even AI instigated and undertaken) bountyhunting along withorganized militaries spawning dynamic missions of various types for players andAI alike based onreal time developments in aconstantly changingwar. Terminus is little known because it was done by a small shop and wasn't as pretty as it could have been. But the underlaying mechanics of the universe, not to mention ship design which really caused players to consider special roles and lateral customization tradeoffs rather than simple linear power increases make it something all space simmers should have some familiarity with, and certainly the devs if they want a strong insight into where JtL needs to go.
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