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Thread: Ships and Mass Discussion
HKowalsky
Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:27 am
#14
Seloth wrote:
HKowalsky wrote:
i think the weird thing is that the fastest ships end being the biggest ones, because there is no way to fit a good engine in a low level fighter.
maybe the multipliers for speed should be changed.
space has no friction, or no resistance, ergo the biger the engine the more voom you get (yes voom is a technical term), mind you the faster you go in any ship makes it harder to turn on a dime. if this was water then you would be correct (mostly) in that a smaller vessel with a hull designed for less resistance would get better performace with a smaller engine.
and my tie/int had a mass 3k engine with a spd of 78, you just have to be lucky on what you loot.
Message Edited by Seloth on 02-22-2005 09:04 AM
so i put a level 2 engine 60 top speed on my small ship 12k or in my 190k big ship and the big one only goes at 80% the speed.... how?? obviously real phisics do not apply so thats not a valid point
or the speed multiplier should be 10x for the 12k ship and 1x for the 190k but 10x is way too much , as i said in my post lower mass ships should have their speed multipliers enhanced, right now they make no sense.
Seloth
Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:40 am
#15
hios question was about why the bigger fighher could go faster not about the size of your engine. a bigger ship would have more mass to accomodate a larger engine that could produce more pound thrust.
i agree that lifting off from a gravity well is a whole different kettle of fish. i was only talking about in space.
I would in general agree that smaller engines should have a smaller spd settings, you could in theory place a huge engine on a small ship and have a very fast ship.
now one thing that could be talked about is if ships are space only craft then mass is really a silly limiter, think about it, no friction, no heaqt gneration from passing through (mostly) vaccum. you could and should in theory be able to have a 10 sq meter cockpit and bolt what ever you wanted on to it (might look ugly but it would be no less functional). about the only concern you would have is if the frame you are using can handle the delta vee forces youare going to apply via turnign and breaking the craft.
i agree that lifting off from a gravity well is a whole different kettle of fish. i was only talking about in space.
I would in general agree that smaller engines should have a smaller spd settings, you could in theory place a huge engine on a small ship and have a very fast ship.
now one thing that could be talked about is if ships are space only craft then mass is really a silly limiter, think about it, no friction, no heaqt gneration from passing through (mostly) vaccum. you could and should in theory be able to have a 10 sq meter cockpit and bolt what ever you wanted on to it (might look ugly but it would be no less functional). about the only concern you would have is if the frame you are using can handle the delta vee forces youare going to apply via turnign and breaking the craft.
goolier
Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:52 am
#16
I think It would be cool if you got certified at higher tiers for an extra component or abbility of some sort to put into lower end ships...
Ex.. you would get an ability at ace to modify the output of an engine if it were in a dunelizzard to 3x... this way their is a trade off in mass for speed, and makes the smaller masssed ships more valid to re-visit and use besides for thier looks and setimental value. This would also make going to the next level in piloting more inspireing rather than just sticking with your lower end ship becuase of a speed modifier... as you would get a better modifier as you leveled up...
Pattent Pending...
Ex.. you would get an ability at ace to modify the output of an engine if it were in a dunelizzard to 3x... this way their is a trade off in mass for speed, and makes the smaller masssed ships more valid to re-visit and use besides for thier looks and setimental value. This would also make going to the next level in piloting more inspireing rather than just sticking with your lower end ship becuase of a speed modifier... as you would get a better modifier as you leveled up...
Pattent Pending...
SeraphDauthi
Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:27 am
#17
One thing to keep in mind about the lower mass ships such as the Khiraxz and the A-wing that is overlooked and probably is an advantage in most cases. In those two ships, you can run Engine Overload 4 along withReactor Overload 4 without problems since you need about 4k of extra reactor juice before running the programs. If you are close to that, you run the risk of disabling your systems. Hence, EO4 in a fast maneuverable ship makes a world of a difference. For example, I can run EO4 andRO4on my A-wing with my prenerf RE'd level 6 reward engine where the max speed is roughly 1342. I cannot run those programs on my X-Wing since I cannot get enough excess capacity in my reactor given the mass constraint. As a result, the highest I can do in my X-Wing using EO3 and RO3 is about 1185 with S-Foils closed. That's a huge difference in any kind of fight but its exactly what you would expect.
So if we are going to discuss balancing issues, we should look at what each shipis fully capable of doing in its entirety and not just what we have experienced since itis usually infected by ignorance and biases. I have mastered both Rebel and Freelance professions and am halfway thru Imperial Pilot. I thought I knew alot about flying until I actually became a Shipwright. Until then and only then was I able to optimize each and every ship I have flown. Now that I have done both and able to do it well I think that I can offer a perspective that is both insightful and objective. For the most part, each profession offers a ship with reasonable parameters that caters to a pilot's specific flying style.
goolier
Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:43 am
#18
SeraphDauthi wrote:"One thing to keep in mind about the lower mass ships such as the Khiraxz and the A-wing that is overlooked and probably is an advantage in most cases. In those two ships, you can run Engine Overload 4 along with Reactor Overload 4 without problems since you need about 4k of extra reactor juice before running the programs"... "I cannot run those programs on my X-Wing since I cannot get enough excess capacity in my reactor given the mass constraint."
Wouldn't that make the Khiraxz and the A-wing not lower massed ships... but more mid-grade massed ships if they have the extra mass to hold bigger reactors? This would make it a mass advantage in this statement... wouldn't it? (I thought the X-wing had more mass than the other two though?) am I mis-understanding something?
Imaridril
Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:28 pm
#19
The original poster does raise a point when it comes to PvE, but it doesn't have anything to do with mass. In PvE right now, the light fighters are pretty pointless. A Rihk, Krayt, Oppressor, or even a B-wing are probably the best PvE ships right now. The reason for this is that all enemy NPCs, even Tier V enemies, don't manuever as much as they should be able to. Right now,a player in a heavy fighter such as Rihk, if he uses a decent engine and Engine Overload, can easily out-manuever and out-turn even Tier V A-wings. In such a situation, the player doesn't really gain much of an advantage by switching to an even more manueverable fighter. The result being, that while using a light fighter might allow him to fly circles around NPCs, all that excess manueverability is overkill. He doesn't need it and would be better off choosing a ship that can hold more guns. What the devs need to do is either improve the A.I. for Tier V enemies, or else give us new Tier VI enemies that actually fly their ships to their full capabilities.
That all being said, there are a few ships that could still use some changes in their mass, namely the Kihraxz (Light Black Sun Fighter) and the TIE Interceptor...
The Kihraxz is no faster than an A-wing or TIE Advanced, and its manueverability isn't noticably superior, yet for some reason it has 15k less mass, a much larger hit profile, and a poorer weapon fire pattern. The only "advantage" the Kihraxz seems to have is that its pitch and yaw acceleration/deceleration is apparently slightly better than the A-wing's and TIE Advanced's. Personally I don't think this one "pro" makes up for all the "cons" that Kihraxz pilots have to deal with. The Kihraxz should be changed to have the same mass as the A-wing and TIE Advanced. Its acceleration/deceleration advantage is already more than countered by its large hit profile. There's a reason why most Freelancer pilots who want a light fighter opt for the Tier I Dunelizard instead. If the devs want to keep the Kihraxz at only 40k mass, then shrink its hit profile down to the same size as the A-wing or the TIE Advanced. Then it might actually be more viable in combat.
The TIE Interceptor's problem is that it doesn't have much, if anything, differentiating it from the TIE Advanced. The only possible difference is that the Interceptor might have a slightly smaller hit profile, though even if this is true, the differenceis very small. Other than that, the Interceptor has less mass, one less weapon hardpoint, and a poorer fire pattern. Pretty much everyImperial Aceflies either an Advanced or an Oppressor, with only a few using an Interceptor, mainly for novelty purposes. The best way for the devs to differentiate the Interceptor from the Advanced would be to increase the Interceptor's speed mod from 1.0 to 1.1. According to a lot of EU material, the TIE Interceptor was supposed to be the fastest of the fighters in standard Imperial and Rebel fleets. Changing its speed mod from 1.0 to 1.1 would allow the Interceptor to live up to this role, and I think it would be a balanced and fair trade off in exchange for the Interceptor's low mass.
Ducimus
Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:32 pm
#20
I completely disagree about mass.
If you know what your doing, if you know what you NEED in your ship and what corners you can cut, if you have the patience to farm for loot drop items to RE later, mass is a total non issue.
What proves this in my mind is my own T/A. 65K mass, and yet, i have a top speed of 1100, a shield rating of 1300, (not the greatest but its all i need), armor of 600 front and back, all packed around a 3600 damage cannon, and a 3000 damage cannon. To top that off, i even had room for some boosters and chaff, and i still had a little bit of mass left over.
Not intending to make sterotypes, but why is it rebel pilots who seem to be the ones petitioning and asking for more mass when they have TONS Of it already? Give me a rebel ship, and i will give you a miracle.
If you know what your doing, if you know what you NEED in your ship and what corners you can cut, if you have the patience to farm for loot drop items to RE later, mass is a total non issue.
What proves this in my mind is my own T/A. 65K mass, and yet, i have a top speed of 1100, a shield rating of 1300, (not the greatest but its all i need), armor of 600 front and back, all packed around a 3600 damage cannon, and a 3000 damage cannon. To top that off, i even had room for some boosters and chaff, and i still had a little bit of mass left over.
Not intending to make sterotypes, but why is it rebel pilots who seem to be the ones petitioning and asking for more mass when they have TONS Of it already? Give me a rebel ship, and i will give you a miracle.
Ducimus
Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:06 pm
#21
Ill say it again in simpler terms.
Re engineering > mass
If you dont have enough mass, time to start looking into REing parts with low mass with high output. Mass is not as big of a handicap as most people mistakenly believe.
I see no reason why the ground rules of the game should be changed to accomadate a few players who seem unable to grasp all of the nuances of configuring their ships.
EDIT:
I suppose it would help if i further explained why im so against this.
Mass restrictions force you to make choices. You can't have your cake and eat it to. A SIZEABLE chunk of JTL content is piecing together that perfect combination of parts. Remove that and the game suddenly became whole lot easier, which equates to little challenge, and a whole lot more boring.
Re engineering > mass
If you dont have enough mass, time to start looking into REing parts with low mass with high output. Mass is not as big of a handicap as most people mistakenly believe.
I see no reason why the ground rules of the game should be changed to accomadate a few players who seem unable to grasp all of the nuances of configuring their ships.
EDIT:
I suppose it would help if i further explained why im so against this.
Mass restrictions force you to make choices. You can't have your cake and eat it to. A SIZEABLE chunk of JTL content is piecing together that perfect combination of parts. Remove that and the game suddenly became whole lot easier, which equates to little challenge, and a whole lot more boring.
Message Edited by Ducimus on 02-22-2005 01:17 PM
X-Rebel
Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:42 pm
#22
i agree with this statment because if we could get the max mass on each ship. the lvl cert would keep ya at the mass you needed anyways. So personaly wish mas would go away. I love my scyk and lizard and kryat.
goolier
Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:04 pm
#23
Mass should never go away, but other (more)perks should be added to ships with lower mass to balance the ships better.
I do not care how much you RE a component for lower mass, you can pack more of those RE'd components in a ship with higher mass limitations. There should be a better perks for ships with smaller mass, becuase who would trade $50 worth of quaters for a $10 dollar bill.
I do not care how much you RE a component for lower mass, you can pack more of those RE'd components in a ship with higher mass limitations. There should be a better perks for ships with smaller mass, becuase who would trade $50 worth of quaters for a $10 dollar bill.
Rogue135
Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:50 am
#24
I'm a Privateer.
Ducimus wrote:
Not intending to make sterotypes, but why is it rebel pilots who seem to be the ones petitioning and asking for more mass when they have TONS Of it already? Give me a rebel ship, and i will give you a miracle.
Ducimus
Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:58 am
#25
It's not you in specific, just various posts that have been made on this board in general.
BTW if your a privateer, why do you still use the rebel pilot icon as your avatar?
That said ,just because your a privateer, doesnt mean your not a rebel pilot. If you go overt, and your hostile towards imperial ships, privateer or not, your a rebel pilot.
BTW if your a privateer, why do you still use the rebel pilot icon as your avatar?
That said ,just because your a privateer, doesnt mean your not a rebel pilot. If you go overt, and your hostile towards imperial ships, privateer or not, your a rebel pilot.Message Edited by Ducimus on 02-22-2005 12:58 PM
jtc632
Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:58 am
#26
Mass is usually the deciding factor, this is true. But a friend of mine was able to trick out his TIE Intercepter so that it has some really good componets. The thing is when he did this is he scarificed the armor and just has shields. But the thing is that his ship is so fast and manuverable that he flies cirles around everything in the sky and rarely if ever gets hit. The thing about the TIE Intercepter is that it is smaller and faster than most other ship which in itself is a great advantage to a pilot with skills to go with it. Althought large amounts of mass allowes for more componets the higher mass ships are slower in comparison. If you were to put the same engine on a TIE Oppresser the TIE Intercepter will be faster and more manuverable. This then leads to the question can I avoid getting hit enough were i dont need armor or shields as much as someone else? When some designs a tank or a jet fighter there are three things to take into account: speed, armor, and firepower. And every pilot in this game has to find the balance that suits him and his skill.