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Thread: NPCs superior to players?
DeepFatFryer wrote:
CAN YOU HEAR IT?
ITS THE SOUND OF A HORSES CORPSE BEING BEATEN!
Owww... Coffee went down wrong pipe after reading that one... Owwww....
Hits to destroy from Class I (lightest fastest)/Class II/Class III/Class IV (heaviest slowest)
Class I: 4/3/2/1
Class II: 5/4/3/2
Class III: 6/5/4/3
Class IV: 7/6/5/4
Of course this is just a template. I don't know what the actual numbers should look like.
For you those posters who bashed this guy saying do a search, dead horse etc, let me remind you of the saying "the squeaky wheel gets the grease." These conversations need to continue to come up until the problem is fixed. The more conversations that occur, the more thought out the solution will end up. Instead of bashing, propose your solutions to the problem.
ComCypher wrote:
I have only recently entered the PvP scene. The first time I ever went overt in space, I was only a tier 1...needless to say, I was dead before I even knew someone was shooting at me. I quickly realized that the lower tiers had no chance of survival in PvP so I decided I wouldn't try again until at least tier 4.
My first day out in my totally craptastic TIE Light Duty fighter I zipped over to Naboo, declared myself at the nearest Imperial station, then zipped back over to Corellia to get some early faction points. After I did my sortie, I decided to head back into the station and notice a guy flying PvP active in a Z-95 Headhunter. I figured it was an even match, being that we both had measly starter ships. Well, he managed to get one hit in which cost me about 60% of my forward shields, then I slid onto his tail and dropped him in four quick shots.
The point? PvP in space is possible at any level. In fact, it's safer to PvP in space than it is on the ground. Why? Because space is about player skill & reflexes, while ground combat is nothing more than a stats game. In space, the weapons are so damaging that a truly skilled player in a mere Tier 1 ship (the Dunelizard immediately comes to mind) has a fair chance of beating someone even in a Tier 3 ship if that Tier 3 player isn't up to par (A Dunelizard is especially menacing because smart Freelancers will keep that monster all the way into the 3rd Tier because that 80,000kg of mass and twin gun mounts beats out the next to ship classes up from it - so you never know what you're really up against when you see one of those). But on the ground, a CL 10 vs a CL 30 is a no-brainer - it's over before it started. Also, you have a good 4km radar range in space, so unless you are slacking on the "Situational Awareness," you will always have enough time to punch in a quick hyperspace exit before they even get into blaster range (500m or less) unless they're over 500kph faster than you (not likely).
Now as for the strange "imbalance" between PvE and PvP space combat, there are two ways of looking at it:
1) Compared to the stats of actual equipment in the game, PvE ships only do appx. 1/10th the listed damage for their weapon class. For instance, when you find a Tech 3 (Tier 1) blaster that does 1500 damage per shot, that same blaster on a PvE ship is only doing 150 per shot. To counter this, PvE ships have their shields increased by appx. ten times the listed amounts! I've taken blasters that do 2500 damage per hit against a Tier 3 ship, which at that tech level should have it's shield rating max out at 2000, tops. But do my blasters pierce it's shields in one shot? Nope! It still takes about eight shots just to get through the shields. Thus, while you may have 2000 shield points at T3, the PvE enemies will have 20,000!
2) It's not PvP that is broken - PvP is working exactly like the numbers of the equipment says it should. It's the PvE that is broken because, as just stated, they only get 1/10th the firepower but 10x the shield strength. Why this was done is beyond me. Why? Because ...
Solution:
You can either move the PvE ships to the more factual PvP stats. This would make ALL space combat very, very dangerous. Sure, their ships would die in three hits or less, but so would you. This would mean that space would quickly turn into a Pros Only situation. On the plus side, PvP combat would mean nothing because you're already used to fighting at that level.
Or you could change the PvP stats to match those found in PvE, thus dragging PvP fights out into lengthy dogfights. While this would be fun, and this solution has already been proposed, I'm afraid the devs will miss something very important because it's too obvious to see - change the stats of the weapons and shields themselves. Instead of trying to "nerf" PvP to PvE levels (read: 1/10th the weapons & 10x the shields), they should just consolidate it into one standard for both PvE & PvP, and change the stats of the weapons & shields to balance it out instead.
Thus, if they really want a ship to be able to take fivehits before it's shields go down, then at (for example) Tier 3 then those weapons should only do 200-300 damage and the shields in that Tier be moved into the 1000-2000 range. Right now, though, we have people with 1500 points of shields and blasters that do 2500 damage at the same tech level. So yes, no surprise that this means "one shot kill" when in the normalized PvP we currently use, because that's exactly what the stats say they should be doing! It's not the PvP that's broken - it's the PvE that is. We need to get rid of the double standard, move everything into the PvP standard and rebalance the weapons & shields when we do this to eliminate the "one shot kill" problem.
Why not just nerf the PvP into PvE levels? Because it's unrealistic. If I have a blaster that says 2500 damage and hit a ship with only 2000 shields, then those shields need to be gone! This is exactly what happens in PvP but, as stated, in PvE this just doesn't work because PvE has been nerfed into stupidity. I'd rather just have it say my guns only do 500 damage and have them really do 500 damage instead of having to feed every shot through the JTLS Mathmatical Nerfalator device before actually applying damage. Then I will also know that my toned-down 500 damage blaster will do the same damage in both PvE and PvP combat. Likewise, I will know that my shields will function the same in both as well.
This is the reason you see so little PvP in space: The PvE nerf ruins a pilot's perceptions of space combat. They are used to opponents that are hard to kill but likewise can't deal out much damage, either. They get used to having a ride a target for a long time and being able to ignore six or seven hits in a row as they do it. PvP is more true to Star Wars canon - you blast a ship in the movies, and chances are it's dead dead dead. It may not seem like much fun if you're on the reciving end, but in the end ... it can only improve your technique. People are just too spoiled by their "Flying Tanks" that can take on five or six PvE ships at once and emerge unscathed, and this holds them back when they finally go PvP and get blown away in less than ten seconds. This happens an average one time per person, and they never PvP again. Hence, space gets boring real quick. A unified standard for both PvE & PvP would mean that pilots would be facing the same stats in both departments and be prepared for PvP combat because the only difference would be skill of a human opponent vs. cheap AI. And that, I believe, is how it should be.
The reason for the NPC/PC disparity is simple. The AI is dumb. The more you experience PvE the more you will see, the AI is about a smart as the stuffed purple bunny on my desk. Just like NPCs on the ground need beefed up HAM, NPCs in space need beefed up shielding.
The reason PC ships don't have this is because players are assumed to be smart. So smart that if the see they are getting hit by something or about to be hit, they will attempt to not get hit. Novel concept that. Contemplate the ramifications of this thing which I will call dodging. Ok sorry, that part was snarky, but the point is made. We have a mind and that is our most powerful weapon in JtL. Better than any gun, shield, engine, or droid command is my mind.
Aim, awareness, avoidance, and alacrity all accentuate a player's survival. I tried to alliterate that with all A's but didnt quite make it. Anyway my point is, you have tools that far exceed anything in your skillboxes, and you should practice and hone them before you judge PvP. It is objectively very fast, but subjectively, once the thrill is upon you, and your mind is keen, the seconds stretch, and therush is palpable.
yep the NPC's are predictable. The only time I ever die in space is when I take on large groups of NPC's. As far as the orginal posters question about having the same tier ships. Did you have the same ship? Ship's have different roles. A tie bomber does not make a good fighter. Kimogila's are not better fighters than Khiraxz. However higher mass allows for you to not worry about the mass on your shield generator. So bombers should take more hits, and fighters should be harder to hit.
psikobunny wrote:
The reason for the NPC/PC disparity is simple. The AI is dumb. The more you experience PvE the more you will see, the AI is about a smart as the stuffed purple bunny on my desk. Just like NPCs on the ground need beefed up HAM, NPCs in space need beefed up shielding.
The reason PC ships don't have this is because players are assumed to be smart. So smart that if the see they are getting hit by something or about to be hit, they will attempt to not get hit. Novel concept that. Contemplate the ramifications of this thing which I will call dodging. Ok sorry, that part was snarky, but the point is made. We have a mind and that is our most powerful weapon in JtL. Better than any gun, shield, engine, or droid command is my mind.
Aim, awareness, avoidance, and alacrity all accentuate a player's survival. I tried to alliterate that with all A's but didnt quite make it. Anyway my point is, you have tools that far exceed anything in your skillboxes, and you should practice and hone them before you judge PvP. It is objectively very fast, but subjectively, once the thrill is upon you, and your mind is keen, the seconds stretch, and therush is palpable.
you want long fights? go up in your a-wing/JSF/whatever other small hitbox ship and equip some level 1 guns. duke it out. now come back here and tell me if you thought that was a real fight.
now, just for fun's sake. go do the same thing with exactly the same equipment. 1 caviat though. have your friend use engine overload 4 instead of engine overload 3. duel 20 times.then come back and report who won each fight.
like it or not, within the scope of the game this is what the OP is asking for. massive game changes are not in JTLs future. variable equipment FORCES the need for quick fights. why? because if you don't have quick fights they last forever and the person with the best equipment wins. sound familiar? hey, yeah it sounds like the ground game doesn't it? explain to me why in a twitch action game the person who grinds the most should win. i don't think i'm a fantastic pilot, but slow the pace of PVP down dramatically and nobody will beat me. bring a JSF, bring whatever you want, i'll win every time.
right now anyone has the chance to beat me with a clever move, wicked aim, or good tactics. people think there's no skill involved but the reality of the matter is there is a OCEAN of skill involved in space PVP and people who claim there isn't any skill haven't even got out of their car to look at the beach.
does it need slight tweaking to make it more fun for heavy ships? yes. do POBs need massive overhauls? yes.
but making PVP like PVE is a mistake. a HUGE mistake. players like the OP clamoring for the two systems to be the same are completely discounting pilot skill and variable equipment and they ask for a change without understanding that it would doom them to losing every single fight they are ever in and quitting the game out of frustration.
it only takes 10 or 20 fights before you start to realize what i'm talking about. go up, make sure you are using a YPR engine (not crafted, just have a SW RE you one off lvl 8s you find doing a vendor search) make sure you are at least using engine overload 3, and go fight someone 20 times. trust me, your perspective will change.
oh, and if you think youre a good pilot and that there's no skill involved in space PVP, work a toon to master on starsider and go to one of their PVP events. your eyes will be opened.
if you think fights are over too quick now observe two skilled pilots fighting in small hitbox ships. it can last upwards of 5-10 minutes in some cases. and you want PVP's pace to be slowed down?
if you are at the bottom of the totem pole you can't be implementing mechanics that change the way things work for people at the top. it's not difficult to adapt. if you find it is too difficult to adapt, then you'll find that no matter what the mechanic changes to, it will still be too difficult.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 07-15-2005 08:58 AM
ComCypher wrote:
Either one of two things can occur when you turn around: 1) you end up flying head on with your opponent, in which case the person with the most powerful gun will win or 2) it will turn into a circle battle, where each pilot is trying to shoot the other's back (ad infinitum). Notice how none of these scenarios involve the pilot's skill.
And before I get any more responses saying I'm not experienced enough at PvP (which may be true from a JTL perspective) I've played enough space combat sims to know how fun PvP can be if implemented properly.
Good grief, what a lot of nonsense. You really don't think #2 requires skill? What do you do in space, hope for a lucky shot?
Your second paragraph sums it up. You don't have the experience in JTL to make a claim like that. JTL isn't like every other game, and many of us enjoy pvp as a fast, skilled experience. When you have a little more flight time under your belt, come back and try that argument again.
I would have to second the "beyond help" statement.
To be honest, the system is as it is. Some like it as it is. Some dislike it.
Personally, I dont like PvP'ing in space. But, I can understand how many people can prefer the much faster pace, and more emphasis on piloting skill that this 1 or 2 shot kills can result in. So, if it was a vote, I'd say the current system should stay.
Unfortunately, this imbalance does mean that larger ships (such as MP ships) will NEVER be even remotely viable in PvP. If Capital ships are implemented, they will most likely fail largely due to this. (unless the dev's actually balance them properly for PvE. SOmething they still havnt done for current MP ships))
And aside, changing the system would not be difficult. Simply takeplayer weapons to the same as NPC weapons, and NPCshieldsto the same as Player Shields. Then, to avoid the problem of ships dodging fire, Y/P/R rates would have to be adjusted. Also, some of the new ships, (such as the JSF), would need some work on their profiles.
Message Edited by Sir-monkey on 07-15-2005 03:39 PM
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