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Thread: Ideas
I disagree. Not ever city should be identical. Nor should it be easy to be a city. People are going to have to make hard decisions, is having a bank worth 80k per week. Is haveing a cloning center worth 100k per week. In making things harder you will have different cities with different feels, not just carbon copies all over the place.
Also your argument misses the fact that that there are 2 requirements to place those strucuturs, 1 is politician skill 2 is the city size. In the 3 weeks it takes to progess from rank 1 ro 4 it will be no problem to have the appropriate skill set to place a shuttleport.
Everyone wants everything now, then they complain about no new content. We need things spaced out. There aren't going to be new city structures for awhile. How happy are you going to be if you can place every single structure in the first week. I think taking 4-6 weeks to build up a city makes sense.
To a few of your points
1. Starports, devs said we aren't getting them, and there is no need for us to get them. I agree.
2. Vendor restrictions. Why would you ever restrict this? Vendors can be placed in structures that aren't part of a city, any house can have a vendor. I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish with this.
A town council sounds like a good idea, but in practice it is not.
Structuring the skill tree as outline above also lends itself to allowing for a wider variety of politician skills. The ability to appoint a town council, for instance. As skill increases grant the politician to appoint commisioners to run a particular aspect of the city. Tourism commisioner, Health commisioner, Commerce commisioner, etc..
What game controls will the councilors be able to affect? How do they earn XP?If they have to get votes, you dilute the mayors ability to advance. If you allow others to affect the city modifiers there is no point in having a mayor in the first place.
I am a little disappointed that my city won't be class 4 day 1, and we have to wait 3 weeks for a shuttleport. But upon deeper reflection I think it is the right way to go and will provide more enjoyment over the long run.
I disagree. Not ever city should be identical. Nor should it be easy to be a city. People are going to have to make hard decisions, is having a bank worth 80k per week. Is haveing a cloning center worth 100k per week. In making things harder you will have different cities with different feels, not just carbon copies all over the place.
I think you are going to be mighty disappointed. With the exception of planetary architectural differences, all municipalities of similar size are going to be differentiated only by layout of the structures (i.e. structure placement) not the structures used.
I agree, however, with your comments about cloning facilities and banks, and thus didnt include them in my original post. I dont feel that they are essential for a small municipality to be successful. They do, however make a nice added perk for the politician trying to bring in a few more residents, entice visitors, or support a large population.
Also your argument misses the fact that that there are 2 requirements to place those strucuturs, 1 is politician skill 2 is the city size. In the 3 weeks it takes to progess from rank 1 ro 4 it will be no problem to have the appropriate skill set to place a shuttleport.
I agree and disagree with this. I implied but did not overtly express the point. As it exists right now, a politician will be in a minor catch-22 situation. Under the current system, the only real thing that matters is the size of your Player City. Player cities and their mayors are locked together.
Lets assume for a moment thatI have a guild of 100 players (I dont).
- My guild decides to place a city and in 6 weeks it isa metropolis (forgive meif this doesnt calculate out...its only a hypothetical argument to highlight a point).
- My guild then gets tired of me as the mayor for what ever reason.
- They cant vote me out because all the amenities are tied to me- they vote me out and they lose thecity size unless they can replace me with another politician of equal or greater level.
Another side of this is that it gives large guilds the power to create (power level) high level politicians if they so desire. Instead of having a bunch of happy players with little outposts and towns littering the landscape, you now hove a bunch of cities owned and operated by what ever uber guild is on your server. Sounds great to me - NOT
WhatI imply with my post is that politician level affects city size, but it should not mandatory. Make city size a decision by a vote of the residents and not automatic when a politician gets a new skill block and has enough people. By giving the core structuresI listed to a novice politician you will help promote good healthy communities that are managed, notcancerous growths.
Everyone wants everything now, then they complain about no new content. We need things spaced out. There aren't going to be new city structures for awhile. How happy are you going to be if you can place every single structure in the first week.
Maybe its just me, but why not design a class right the first time? I would be perfectly happy if the only thing they had to add were the exact same structures with a different floor plan and exterior styling.
1. Starports, devs said we aren't getting them, and there is no need for us to get them. I agree.
Doesnt hurt to bring it up again. The idea of a sprawling metropolis without the ability to have a starport seems almost awkward to me.
2. Vendor restrictions. Why would you ever restrict this? Vendors can be placed in structures that aren't part of a city, any house can have a vendor. I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish with this.
To be perfectly honest, within a municipality, I think that player houses ought to be just that - houses. You want to run a vendor then it belongs in the public vendor area (tent). This would tend to require city management vice unbridled growth. It empowers the artisan members of a municipality. If they feel they dont have enough vendor slots available, they take their business elsewhere - Your municipality doesnt have enough vendors, then you arent making as much money in tax revenue. No tax revenue and you cant afford that shuttle port...can you see where this is going now?
A town council sounds like a good idea, but in practice it is not.
What game controls will the councilors be able to affect? How do they earn XP?If they have to get votes, you dilute the mayors ability to advance. If you allow others to affect the city modifiers there is no point in having a mayor in the first place.
Who said it has to be a position that gives experience? Its not really that much different than the militia, but instead of combat they are managers of their area of expertise. As for what they have control of, who knows? Thats part of whyI started this thread.
I am a little disappointed that my city won't be class 4 day 1, and we have to wait 3 weeks for a shuttleport.
It shouldnt be class 4 on day one butit should be able to have a shuttle port. That shuttle port isnt going to be what makes your city grow. And if you honestly believe you are actually working to make it grow - you are kidding yourself. The system, as it is set up right now, providing you have the sheep to follow you, will make it grow automatically. Theonly thing you can do to screw it up is charge too much in taxes. It really wont require mucheffort on the part of the politician at all.
I 'think' Starports are a facility that may be due with the space expansion. In which case we could expect these starports to be something special. Im only guessing, but somehow makes sense to me 
I agree with shuttleports being delayed to 50 people, it gives you a goal to strive for. I find it hard to comment on the flaws / good points without experiencing the city system myself, so i reserve judgement on most issues till it goes live, or till i get TC working on my pc so i can go have a look / talk to peeps myself.
I think I'm gonna have to agree with Spit on this one. I'd much rather see several small outpost than a few huge guild ran cities.
Looks like he put alot of thought into this, I hope the Dev's are listening.
Well, after reading other threads - it appears as if the uber guilds and power players (in general)have decided that the only thing that should exist in game is HUGE guild operated cities. Heaven forbid that a small trading outpost be created with a single shuttle port, a few merchants, a medical facility and cantina even be alowed to operate. I dont really understand the mentality. Does the ability for a small group to set up the outpost suggested above really pose that much of a threat?
If the system is designed right, from the begining, it will work regardless of when you get shuttleports or medical facilities or cantinas, etc. It will work for small groups and for large guilds.
Can you please explain again why you think it is important to have all these structures at novice and explain the benefit with an example?
Ok. But only if you give me aREAL reason - not: there shouldnt be shuttleports littering the landscape as a reason against it.
The benefit isnt derived soley from allowing the structures all at the novice. Also,I didnt say all structures - just theshuttleport, medical facility, cantina, and vendor tents (in limited numbers). The benefit is derived by uncoupling the automatic increase in city size from politician level - put it to a vote. I agree that there should be a level requirement to run a large city -but- Idont think just because the city has a high level mayor it should be big.I firmly believe that the power in the municipality belongs to the residents and in their vote. By granting the ability to place all of the structuresI listedto the Novice Politician, the politician class become something that even the casual player can enjoy most of the functionality of. It will also allow for smaller communities to spring up. It will allow the recruitment of politicians with out the scare of a big city, if the residents dont want it. The fact that the structures require a certain size of city and thus are locked to a certain level of politiician to place shows a complete lack of creativity on the part of the developers and is just another example of rushing out the end product. Bottom line- Does the ability for a novice politician to place a shuttleportprevent you fromdoing what you are going to do anyway? - No.Does it allow the casual gamer the ability to actually explore the class? - Yes.
Everyone assumes that my arguments are for wanting it all - to the contrary, I actually ask for very little. The ability to placefour simple structures within a town and at a more limited capacity than currently exists within the NPC cities. I dont want a big city. Judging byposts on the boards here - I am not alone, albeit I am in the minority. Why shouldthe ability to PAY for a shuttle pilot to stop byan outpost once a day -or - as part of his normal route betweenNPC cities to stop byan outpost (givingshuttle access ONLY to the closest NPC city) be based onthe size of the municipality. It almost sounds as ifthe desire is to force peopleto move into a big player city just to satisfy a politician's ego.
Another assumption that people make, is that there is going to be an over abundance politicians. The 500 apprentice points, along with the 15 skill points, will prevent a flood of politicians - with the exception of all the guild politicians. The landscape is not going to be anymore littered with small towns than it will be with PA halls.
Your point on making advancing in city size optionalis an interesting one. If grant zoning rights applies to all structures and the mayor has to approve all buildings (now granted in novice) I don't see why you would want to keep the city from advancingto the next size. If grant zoning rights does not apply to all structures, you have come up with an interesting way to control the town size, and thus its inhabitants.
The benefit is derived by uncoupling the automatic increase in city size from politician level - put it to a vote. I agree that there should be a level requirement to run a large city -but- Idont think just because the city has a high level mayor it should be big.
I still don't understand what you are saying. The automatic increase in city size is based on inhabitants, not politician level. You can have a novice mayor in charge of a metropolis. You can have a master polotician in charge of an outpost. Mayoral level has nothing to do with the city size, just the placement of structures. City level is entirely dependent on the number of citizens 5 for outpost, 15 for village, 30 for town, 50 for city, 80 for metropolis.
I can see a point to having medical facilitiy, cantina, and vendor tents at novice. They are all player owned so why not allow them early on. The shuttleport is the number 1 item everyone wants. Since it is what everyone wants I think they are making it more difficult to achieve, be it right or wrong. I personally think it is right with the way things currently are. If you changed the criteria to be either 50 people or 3000m from the nearest NPC city, then I could see lowering the requirements. I think it would be nice to have a small town with a catina and a few vendors on Dantooine in the middle of nowhere with a shuttleport. But I don't think we need 10 shuttleports ringing anchorhead.
In a game I believe there should be rewards for certain levels of achievement. I see building a city as a task, and building a successful larger city is rewarded with a shuttleport. That makes sense to me. If anyone and everyone can have a shuttleport, it will dilute the drawing powerof large citys and not foster cooperation. If people come together and cooperate and make a bigger city, then they get rewarded.
Bottom line- Does the ability for a novice politician to place a shuttleportprevent you fromdoing what you are going to do anyway? - No.Does it allow the casual gamer the ability to actually explore the class? - Yes.
I disagree with this line of thinking. I agree giving more at novice won't hurt me or change my game play. But the second part is ludicrous. Following your line of thinking shouldn't all novice professions get more? You need rewards for sticking with something. 2 skill boxes is not that big of a deal. Sounds to me like you want to only give up 15 skill points so you don't have to tear down your character, but still have the city you want. Wouldn't giving every profession all the weapon certs at novice allow them to explore more? Wouldn't give more high level pets to Novice CH let them explore more? Your argument flies in the face of the game.
Spit,
I think it will be nice to have a variety of cities and sizes, but I think it will be better if there are fewer cities than more. I think there needs to be barriers to entry at any level, and only those truly dedicated to a city have one. People can still have small enclaves of houses and be a psuedo-city, but we don't need 30 shuttlports per planet.
The question on what happens if a master politician is voted out and a novice comes in has not been adequately answered for me. From things I have heard, the city structures are tied to the city not the politician. So you need the skill to place it, but once it is down you can surrender the skill, or have a new mayor and it will still function. Some people have mentioned that maybe the structure should stay, but cease to operate until the new mayor gets the skill.
I am not sure what is more desireable here. But I agree with you that it will be a detriment to the profession if new politicians can never be elected because if they are the city ceases to function.
WhatI imply with my post is that politician level affects city size, but it should not mandatory. Make city size a decision by a vote of the residents and not automatic when a politician gets a new skill block and has enough people. By giving the core structuresI listed to a novice politician you will help promote good healthy communities that are managed, notcancerous growths.
I don't see how granting all structures at novice will make any difference. You still have to wait for the city size to catch up. You will have to save places or ask people to move either way. Also, you have to wait for the radius to grow to allow for these structures.
Can you please explain again why you think it is important to have all these structures at novice and explain the benefit with an example?
Lastly,
It shouldnt be class 4 on day one butit should be able to have a shuttle port. That shuttle port isnt going to be what makes your city grow. And if you honestly believe you are actually working to make it grow - you are kidding yourself. The system, as it is set up right now, providing you have the sheep to follow you, will make it grow automatically. Theonly thing you can do to screw it up is charge too much in taxes. It really wont require mucheffort on the part of the politician at all.
We already have 50 or so residents, so I am not worried about growth at this time. I figure once we progress through the 4 weeks and have the amenities we want we will be fine. I don't expect the shuttleport to make it grow, it will allow me to not have to run 4500m, that is why I am disappointed.
Ok, this is a guy that doesn't have his facts straight. Medical Center, Cantinas and Merchant Tents are NOT affected by the Mayor AT ALL. Merchant Tents can be placed at any time. Medical Center and Cantinas are player owned buildings that require a city level. You need a master Doc or master Dancer/Musician to place those buildings. Maybe they could've added a Tavern at lvl 1 city like Anchorhead has, only requiring master medic or entertainer.
And when it comes to shuttles, look at Wayfar and Mos Taike. These are NPC cities without shuttles. Doesn't it seem strange that any player city could get one, but some NPC cities can't? yes, I agree lvl 4 is abit steep, but it should at least require some size.
*cough*edit-button*cough*
anyways..Merchant tents is also player owned, requiring a merchant with a 4th lvl skill (can't remember which one). But they do not require any city level.
I don't see why you would want to keep the city from advancingto the next size.
I dont think the success of a city or a politician is measured by the size of the city. I want to see a system created that actually allows the politician to manage the city - large or small.
The automatic increase in city size is based on inhabitants, not politician level. You can have a novice mayor in charge of a metropolis. You can have a master polotician in charge of an outpost.
Hmmm. OK - thats not the way I was seeing it working, but it does make more sense. I must have a general misunderstanding of how the system is actually going to work. Ill take another look at it.
An increase in city size should still not be automatic based on the number of residents. It should be a vote by the people living in the municipality. If the outpost has its 5 people within its 150m they should then be able to vote on wether to bump it up to the next level - or not. They should not be able to control who moves into the 150m radius and declare residence.
You need rewards for sticking with something. 2 skill boxes is not that big of a deal. Sounds to me like you want to only give up 15 skill points so you don't have to tear down your character, but still have the city you want.
Then reward the politician. The ability to pay for a shuttle port should not - in anyway - be linked to the size of the city. If it is going to be a reward for the politician, then make it placable in any size palyer city. A master politician should be able to place what ever structures in what ever sized city he or she wants, as long as the city is willing to pay for it. AsI understand it, and correct me if im wrong, City hall placement will be limited to 1km from any other city hall. Combine that with nomal landscape prohibitions on building and you have yourmethod for preventing an explosion of shuttleports everywhere.
As for the number of skill boxes, you are absolutely correct - its not that big a deal, by itself. When you combine it with prohibitive maintenance costs and a taxation system that doesnt have a chance to cover the costs of maintaining the structures it becomes a bigger deal. Ihave an architect with enough points available to master politician, so the points are not the issue and not whatI am really asking for.
Maybe,a deeding feeshould be considered on structures. Charge an appropriate amount of credits in addition to the applicable schematic to place astructure in a city. Then scale the maintenance cost in proportion to the size of the city.
One could argue that the rewards, in the case of shuttleports, could be more routes. Just a possibility.
Good arguments this time Mkappus.