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Thread: Should Weapons being brought down a bit in PvP?
Woss wrote:I like the armor idea, but if that's too hard to program, I have a simple "fix..."Double all PvE damage, both inflicted and received, and halve all PvP damage. ...
It aint THAT easy. If you doubled PvE damage inflicted, it would have an effect on the economy, i garuntee it. How now i could farm my 400K per run in half the time. It would hae a trickle effect throughout the economy. Space would end up being BETTER than old solo group missions.
Double PvE damaged received and you now hose rebel and privateer pilots. Imperial ships are already small and get hit ALOT less than rebel or privateer ships. Can you imagine the crying on this? "Those damn imps get ATST, blah blah blah AND their ships are overbalnced in PvE, sony fix it !!!"
Thats not sovling problems, it's creating new ones.
Ducimus wrote:
Woss wrote:
I like the armor idea, but if that's too hard to program, I have a simple "fix..."
Double all PvE damage, both inflicted and received, and halve all PvP damage. ...
It aint THAT easy. If you doubled PvE damage inflicted, it would have an effect on the economy, i garuntee it. How now i could farm my 400K per run in half the time. It would hae a trickle effect throughout the economy. Space would end up being BETTER than old solo group missions.
Double PvE damaged received and you now hose rebel and privateer pilots. Imperial ships are already small and get hit ALOT less than rebel or privateer ships. Can you imagine the crying on this? "Those damn imps get ATST, blah blah blah AND their ships are overbalnced in PvE, sony fix it !!!"
Thats not sovling problems, it's creating new ones.
Imperial Ships are not really any smaller than most Rebel Ships. Thier A-Wings are faster an smaller than most of ours except maybe the Interceptor. But yes I agree PvE is pretty balanced right now. If they died any easier it would'nt even be a challenge at all considering they are just not that smart. All im asking for is either for Weapons to be brought down in strength(NPC's get scaled with it) or for Shielding an especially Armor to be increased in PvP effectiveness. Right now all player ships in space are Glass Cannons but some are faster an harder to hit than others.
Sifer2 wrote:
Imperial Ships are not really any smaller than most Rebel Ships. Thier A-Wings are faster an smaller than most of ours except maybe the Interceptor.
Not quite.
Imperial ships do infact have a smaller hitbox than all rebel ships excepting the A wing. Have you flown both yet? You'll get missed ALOT more in a Tie than in a rebel ship. You dont hear the sound of a laser bolt wizzing by you very often in rebel ships, and its a common sound heard in ties
The A wing, acutally isnt any faster than the Tie interceptor or Advanced, its the same speed. (just FYI, both the T/I and T/A have the same handling and speed excepting perhaps throttle setting for corner velocity). The A wing IS however smaller than both the T/I and T/A, it isnt however as manuverable as the T/I and T/A. Infact its YPR is about 1 whole unit less than the above mentioned Ties. Chassis YPR accelration sits around 5.4 Yaw and pitch in the T/I and T/A whereas in the A wing it sits about 4.4 Yaw and Pitch if i remember correctly.
The PvP game works the same way, which is the problem. Neither PC side has the huge hitpoints of an AI opponent while both sides have the big guns of PC player. This results in a considerably different playstyle. Some folks like this style, while others don't.
Personally, I think this imbalance skews the PvP game. Oddly enough, it makes the lightest fighters the most used airframes, so maybe it's not so bad. In my own perfect world, there would be a good balance choice between light and fast, and medium but heavily weaponed. Right now, I think that PvP is a bit too tilted towards "smallest airframe possible."
VemaGara wrote:
Oddly enough, it makes the lightest fighters the most used airframes, so maybe it's not so bad. In my own perfect world, there would be a good balance choice between light and fast, and medium but heavily weaponed. Right now, I think that PvP is a bit too tilted towards "smallest airframe possible."
You're right it does. Part of the reason for it is because Weapon Overload 3 is available, significantly increases Weapon damage output, decreases Weapon energy used per shot, and decreases Weapon energy drain on the Reactor - it has 3 positives and 0 negatives instead of 1 positive and 2 negatives.
When WO3 is not the default option for a ship Droid/FC, then maybe those light fighters' damage potentials will decrease, making a heavier components a viable way to survive against a single gun, maneuverable fighter.
While WO3 exists in its current state, that's hard to prove one way or the other.
Shona
Sifer2 wrote:
Thradd wrote:
No no no. Leave damage alone. Once WO3 gets fixed all will be well.
I've said it before and I'll say it again....
If you get killed in one shot
A) You were not paying attention-situational awareness is EVERYTHING
B) You need to adjust your ships loadout-you might want to drop some componants in favor of better shields
C) You need to learn how to fly better-it never hurts to learn a few manuvers otehr than "match speed turn"
D) You simply got bested. Move on and go practice. It takes time to be a good pilot. the "Ace" tag doesn't make you a good pilot.
In EVERY Sci-Fi film/TV series I have ever seen, space battles are quick and deadly. Light fighters go down in one hit ALL THE TIME. JTL reflects that and it's beautiful. I fly an Advanced on Shadowfirewith 1700 shields, NO ARMOR, no boosters, no ordnance, a screaming fast and nimble engine, and a 3600 max damage Ion that does about .800 to shields. This ship is a killer. But I know that if another player ship even looks at me the wrong way I will blow up. I know this. I go overt knowing that I will die in 1 hit. So guess what....I do everything I can NOT to get hit. Flying a weak ship will only make you a better pilot. You have to be. I have an Oppressor that is a tank....but she makes me lazy. I don't have to flay as hard because I know I can take a few hits.
This is what I want to know...how many hits do you people want it to take? 2-5-10-50? Do you want PVP combat to last as long as PVE combat or as long as two deffence stackers on the ground? If you are a weak pilot do you really think it's going to matter how long a PVP battle is going to last? If you can't fly....you will die. 1 hit, 2 hits, 5 hits, 10 hits, 50 hits. It won't matter. A damage reduction won't help you as much as you think it will. If you're "just flying along" attacking something and I come up on your 6 and it takes 10 hits to kill you, I will bet hard credits that I will get those 10 hits before you have any idea what is going on.
There are some very good pilots out there who have had dogfights for 10-15 minutes!! Is that long enough?
And ifthink you're a"good" pilot whofinds JTL too easy, rather then asking for damage reduction, why don't you jump your hardcore self into the cockpit of a Z-95 or a TIE fighter, then head on into deep space...and let people know you're coming. Then come back here and report on how easy it was.
Yes but dont you see the problem with that? Armor is useless. A Heavy fighter or MP ship is useless because Space PvP is a one hit death game. So yes under the one hit death mode we have now ONLY small extremely fast light fighters like you flyare worth flying in PvP. Most people know this which is why most people have two Ships. A Heavy for PvE and a Light for PvP. To me this is wrong. All types of Ships should be equally viable in PvE an PvP. A Heavy fighter should not be going down in one hit. A MP Ship should be able to take a ton of punishment enough that it would take multiple fighters to kill it.
I agree with you 110% about the MP ships. They should be hard as hell to take down. The Nova and the Decimator should be like mini-capitol ships able to take and dish out massive ammounts of damage....yet move like a pregnant bantha. The YT-1300 on the other hand should be able to take more damage than it does, but not as much as a Nova or a Decimator. However...it should be more agile and move like a heavy fighter.
As for what you said about PVE/PVE light vs heavy fighters...that is a bit skewed. On a few servers there are Oppressors that are specially loaded to take out A-wings and are feared in PVP. There are also B-wings that are more than capable in PVP.
It's all how you load up and how you fly. Smaller, lighter fighters do much better in some types of PVP but the tanks can hold their own and get more than their fair share of the kills. The heavies can and do take more than one hit to kill.
There really are so many factors involved in space PVP that it's almost impossible to address all of the "what ifs". There are no templates and that's the beauty of JTL. I used to go with a fast ship and high damage gun. but now I rather have a fast ship and low power/fast refire rate gun. But that's me. Another pilot might go with a slower engine and better shields and be a rocket jockey. Still another pilot might like a more balacend ship.
It's all about flying to your strengths and weaknesses within the realm of game mechanics. Like the gun I have now it only does about 1500-2000 damage. Very light. Some people like having that big 3k-4k max damage blaster that has a slower refire rate. Thos pilots are probably better shots than I am. They can fire at a slower rate because they have a higher hit percentage. I'm a horrible shot so I need to spit as much death as fast as I can and hope for the best. With as fast as I fire even if I only land 10% of my shots, they are coming non stop so I know I'll get the kill.
I fly to my weakness. I am a bad shot so I need to put more rounds down range. But I can handle a ship at very high speeds so I put in that good engine. Some people can't fly that fast. So they opt for a slower engine but are no less deadly. Light or heavy fighters both get just as much love. It's the MP ships that need the help.
Ducimus wrote:
2.) As it is currenlty if PvP damage were to be toned down, here's what would happen between two pilots with a clue:
a.) Dance with each other from anywhere between 30 seconds to 5 minutes.
b.) someone gets lucky and scores a hit.
c.) The pilot who was just hit shunts his shields back to 100%.
d.) Goto A. Rinse and repeat ad nasuem until someone gives up and hyper's away.
The above scenario is really only a possibility if both players aren't using missiles or if both are out of missiles. (Though if there's a rebel involved, he can always use in-flight replenishment to reload his missile launchers.) A light fighter equipped only with guns is not really equipped for taking on other light fighters as effectively as he could be. A light fighter's defensive strengths are its ability to avoid incoming blaster fire, especially incoming fire witha tight fire pattern, such as that of other light fighters. A light fighter's weakness is missiles, and heavier fighters with shotgun like fire patterns. When determining weather or not light fighter vs. light fighter combat is already balanced, its unfair to leave missiles out of the equation.
Personally I think WO3 and the Capacitor Overloads need to be fixed, and then we can see how things go from there, though I have a feeling another 25% reduction in PvP damage would work wonderfully. Sure, a light fighter pilot who refuses to use missiles might have trouble killing another light fighter pilot under such a change, especially if he keeps trying to use a slow firing, level 8 reward gun, but as far as I'm concerned its his own damn fault.The high firepower of a heavy gun makes him strong against heavy fighters,so he shouldn't expect to be just as effective when taking on another light fighter. If he wants to be able to take on other light fighters, too, that he should drop the gun down to afaster fireing level 7, or switch to a lighter shield,and use the saved mass to addon aMark II Image Rec Launcher. This would put him in a much better position to take on another light fighter, but at the expense of his strength vs. heavy fighters, which I think is a fair trade.
Imaridril wrote:
Ducimus wrote:
2.) As it is currenlty if PvP damage were to be toned down, here's what would happen between two pilots with a clue:
a.) Dance with each other from anywhere between 30 seconds to 5 minutes.
b.) someone gets lucky and scores a hit.
c.) The pilot who was just hit shunts his shields back to 100%.
d.) Goto A. Rinse and repeat ad nasuem until someone gives up and hyper's away.The above scenario is really only a possibility if both players aren't using missiles or if both are out of missiles.
I dont think making a kill or not should be decided by the use of missles. But hey if it ever works out that way, me and the Tie oppressor tell death do us part!
Thradd wrote:No no no. Leave damage alone. Once WO3 gets fixed all will be well.I've said it before and I'll say it again....If you get killed in one shotA) You were not paying attention-situational awareness is EVERYTHINGB) You need to adjust your ships loadout-you might want to drop some componants in favor of better shieldsC) You need to learn how to fly better-it never hurts to learn a few manuvers otehr than "match speed turn"D) You simply got bested. Move on and go practice. It takes time to be a good pilot. the "Ace" tag doesn't make you a good pilot.
I've seen many folks talk about how you can learn to fly and out manuever your enemy and frankly it's bull. Currently a properly outfitted Oppressor or Awing or any ship with enough firepower can slow to 50% throttle and open up on his guns, there is simply no way you will ever get behind him and he will never stop firing. Anytime you complete a manuever and line up for a shot, he's already lined up and firing on you. There is no way to zip past him and get behind him because he'll already be turned and shooting at you. And if one volly lands you're toast.
So how do you deal with a player who just opens up on guns and chops throttle to 50% and is a good shot? You run away I suppose, but it doesn't make for very interesting combat.
And hearing you say better shields are needed in pvp is hilarious. Shields at best may stop one of the 2 blasters hitting you from my own oppressor but that 2nd shot will eat u alive. I get one shotted a lot and every ship I kill save extremely heavy ships like the KSE, Bwing, or M22 all go down in one volley. There have been battles where I took more than one shot, or my opponent did but they are just freak occurances. Vast majority are settled with one good shot.
Tumbler2002 wrote:
Thradd wrote:
No no no. Leave damage alone. Once WO3 gets fixed all will be well.
I've said it before and I'll say it again....
If you get killed in one shot
A) You were not paying attention-situational awareness is EVERYTHING
B) You need to adjust your ships loadout-you might want to drop some componants in favor of better shields
C) You need to learn how to fly better-it never hurts to learn a few manuvers otehr than "match speed turn"
D) You simply got bested. Move on and go practice. It takes time to be a good pilot. the "Ace" tag doesn't make you a good pilot.
I've seen many folks talk about how you can learn to fly and out manuever your enemy and frankly it's bull. Currently a properly outfitted Oppressor or Awing or any ship with enough firepower can slow to 50% throttle and open up on his guns, there is simply no way you will ever get behind him and he will never stop firing. Anytime you complete a manuever and line up for a shot, he's already lined up and firing on you. There is no way to zip past him and get behind him because he'll already be turned and shooting at you. And if one volly lands you're toast.
So how do you deal with a player who just opens up on guns and chops throttle to 50% and is a good shot? You run away I suppose, but it doesn't make for very interesting combat.
And hearing you say better shields are needed in pvp is hilarious. Shields at best may stop one of the 2 blasters hitting you from my own oppressor but that 2nd shot will eat u alive. I get one shotted a lot and every ship I kill save extremely heavy ships like the KSE, Bwing, or M22 all go down in one volley. There have been battles where I took more than one shot, or my opponent did but they are just freak occurances. Vast majority are settled with one good shot.
Couple of ways of dealing with the game of "chicken". You can be the first to dodge...chop your throttles and start firing too...use missiles (personal favorite) Whatever works.
The best idea (IMO)is to have a wingman. The lead pilot engages and the second lines up for a gun or missile kill. You should win most of those...at the very least only one of you will die. Just remember to work out who is the shooted and who is the "bait" with your wingman before engaging other players.
Kassuff wrote:
Tumbler2002 wrote:
Thradd wrote:No no no. Leave damage alone. Once WO3 gets fixed all will be well.I've said it before and I'll say it again....If you get killed in one shotA) You were not paying attention-situational awareness is EVERYTHINGB) You need to adjust your ships loadout-you might want to drop some componants in favor of better shieldsC) You need to learn how to fly better-it never hurts to learn a few manuvers otehr than "match speed turn"D) You simply got bested. Move on and go practice. It takes time to be a good pilot. the "Ace" tag doesn't make you a good pilot.
I've seen many folks talk about how you can learn to fly and out manuever your enemy and frankly it's bull. Currently a properly outfitted Oppressor or Awing or any ship with enough firepower can slow to 50% throttle and open up on his guns, there is simply no way you will ever get behind him and he will never stop firing. Anytime you complete a manuever and line up for a shot, he's already lined up and firing on you. There is no way to zip past him and get behind him because he'll already be turned and shooting at you. And if one volly lands you're toast.
So how do you deal with a player who just opens up on guns and chops throttle to 50% and is a good shot? You run away I suppose, but it doesn't make for very interesting combat.
And hearing you say better shields are needed in pvp is hilarious. Shields at best may stop one of the 2 blasters hitting you from my own oppressor but that 2nd shot will eat u alive. I get one shotted a lot and every ship I kill save extremely heavy ships like the KSE, Bwing, or M22 all go down in one volley. There have been battles where I took more than one shot, or my opponent did but they are just freak occurances. Vast majority are settled with one good shot.Couple of ways of dealing with the game of "chicken". You can be the first to dodge...chop your throttles and start firing too...use missiles (personal favorite) Whatever works.
The best idea (IMO) is to have a wingman. The lead pilot engages and the second lines up for a gun or missile kill. You should win most of those...at the very least only one of you will die. Just remember to work out who is the shooted and who is the "bait" with your wingman before engaging other players.
Missle lock still requires you keep your nose pointed at your enemy and you can't lock until you are within 500 or so which is gun range so how does that work against a pilot who is constatly firing at you? Chopping throttles after a dodge isn't going to help u, because your opponent is still going to land shots at best at the same time your shots land.
As for your wingman tactics I was talking about 1 on 1 tactics. Two good pilots should be able to spar back and forth and have a decent battle. Under the current system it doesn't happen. IMO your best chance of winning pvp is to get massive forward armor, extreme forward adjust for shields and just blast away. (plus wpn overload 3, cap overload 4 and reactor overload 4 if needed. Cap to shield shunt too) Since chopping your throttle gives you enough turning power to match any ship (courtesy of eng overload 4) nothing else matters besides taking more damage on the front than your opponent
It may not win in every case but I'll bet you win 9/10 at least.
Message Edited by Tumbler2002 on 04-18-2005 11:16 AM