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Thread: Question...why does the AI now *SLOW DOWN* in dogfights?
darmokVtS
Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:37 am
#14
Gawzeera wrote:funny how its always those that have mastered the pilot professions that complain that enemies are to easy.
I am currently in the process of mastering freelancer Pilot on my alt, until now I solo'ed my way up to 4333 without the enemies EVER getting past my shields. And yes, this is clearly wrong, last time I checked we aren't supposed to solo through Tier 3 so that part should have been AT LEAST *very* *very* hard to do solo, but it felt a bit like the ground game with buffs and armor, almost god mode :/.
This has a couple of reasons, one being that the RSF campaign is ridiculously easy, one being that freelancers have a lot better firepower/protection at early stages than for example imperials but one major part being that the current AI is even more a joke than it was before :/.
Blackclaw00
Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:01 am
#15
I suspect a lot of flight sim players have a bit of trouble adjusting to the dynamics of jump to lightspeed. Not to say that they are having trouble in the game. On the contrary, I'm sure they are slaughtering the AI in droves. But rather, they are having difficulty in accepting what they find in JTL and they are having difficulty in expressing what it is they want to see because they find themselves in an environment they are not use to.
Flight simmers will always tell you that speed is life. Well Why is this? It's because in an atmospheric fighter having speed gives you options. High speed is cash in the bank. If I want, I can trade my speed in for altitude very quickly. I can use my speed for a superior engagement position and then disengage before the enemy even realizes he's in trouble.
But in space, altitude is irrelevant. High speed can help you outrun an enemy, but the advantages that high speed give you in an atmosphere fighter don't translate directly in JTL. You don't have to worry about stalling out in a tight turn. There is no energy management (not reactor power, rather speed and altitude) to concern yourself with.
So what tactics do you have? In JTL the most common tactic is to outcorner your enemy. If this is all that is attempted, you find yourself fighting in circles. New tactics need to be developed and these tactics are not going to resemble the realistic tactics us flight simmers are use to. "Slamming on the brakes" isn't anything I would try in an aircraft, but in JTL, it works sometimes.
The current AI is the best we have had so far. The AI reacts to you being on their tail and tries to shake you. It doesn't try to simply joust with you over and over. If we want the developers to make better AI, we have to tell the developers what the AI should be doing. So as your blasting your next AI opponent, think about what the AI should have done to survive and then come back here and share your ideas.
JonnyBravo
Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:19 am
#16
KaylBreinhar wrote:
truewildman wrote:I slow down in dogfights.The point is, when going fast and juking doesn't work, slam on the brakes to try to get the opponent to pass you.Actually, it works. It puts you on their tail. You ought to try it sometime.
Actually, engaging the AI at 799kph helps immensely...but given my PvP record thus far, I don't think I need advice on dogfighting.
The first rule of aerial combat is "speed is life" - the X-Wings and A-Wings function as you're suggesting...but the B-Wings and Y-Wings just keep slowing down until they're flying at ridiculously slow speeds.
Forgive me for wanting an extra challenge. I'm the same person who says NPC Y-Wings should get turrets because I'm tired of hearing how "Imperials have it better since they don't have to fight Aggressors!"Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 12-03-2004 09:06 AM
One small correction to your statement...in aerial combat "Energy" is life. This can be in terms of speed or altitude. In space, since energy is only defined in terms of speed for this game, then I agree with your original assumption.
In terms of the "Top Gun" maneuver, absolutely no pilot in his right mind would EVER attempt it unless they were suicidal. The last thing you want to do is deplete your energy state. Especially in this game where energy is defined in terms of speed, all the aggressor has to do is knock his speed back as well. By chopping throttle all you've accomplished is making yourself an immobile target as opposed to a mobile one. In atmospheric combat where gravity and altitude play a role in energy, any self-respecting pilot seeing his target suddenly slow down would simply climb up to a higher altitude and increase his energy advantage over the opponent ever further. The target is now out of energy, and out of options.
It is my hope that the AI finds a nice middle ground between what it was in 11.2 and 11.3. I like the fact that the NPC ships now tend to juke, roll and perform evasives. Unfortunately, their "Top Gun" defense leaves a lot to be desired.
Phat_D_Har
Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:58 am
#17
darmokVtS wrote:
I am currently in the process of mastering freelancer Pilot on my alt, until now I solo'ed my way up to 4333 without the enemies EVER getting past my shields.
Having died fairly often getting to tier 3433, I'm curious about your loadout. Any chance you can post what your ship is equiped with?
Tasni - Freelance Pilot(CorSec)
Master Smuggler
Ducimus
Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:06 pm
#18
KaylBreinhar wrote:
I also do very much love it when any post even PASSIVELY suggests that the game should be made MARGINALLY more difficult gets one-starred by those who want everything handed to them.Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 12-03-2004 09:14 AM
I didnt one star you but i think i know why some people would.
Its not your point of your message, it's how you say it, combined with the negative attitude. Frankly anyone who writes in such a way as to hint/suggest of a inflated ego.. is at least in my book, looked at crediously.
KaylBreinhar
Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:08 pm
#19
Iralith wrote:
Just to ask a very very dumb question for clarity's sake: you're talking about a slowdown that happens well before you start damaging their systems (and thus hosing their engines), right?
Yes. B-Wings and Y-Wings begin slowing down as soon as they're hit - NOT before weapons fire starts cutting into their subcomponents. A-Wings and X-Wings appear to be extremely selective in their throttle usage, but I've clocked a still-shielded A-Wing decelerate to 390kph for a few seconds before exploding back to their new crusing speed of 989kph.
Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 12-03-2004 02:12 PM
KaylBreinhar
Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:11 pm
#20
Ducimus wrote:
KaylBreinhar wrote:
I also do very much love it when any post even PASSIVELY suggests that the game should be made MARGINALLY more difficult gets one-starred by those who want everything handed to them.Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 12-03-2004 09:14 AM
I didnt one star you but i think i know why some people would.
Its not your point of your message, it's how you say it, combined with the negative attitude. Frankly anyone who writes in such a way as to hint/suggest of a inflated ego.. is at least in my book, looked at crediously.
Anyone who's flown with me or against me can attest that I'm damn good. I merely seek a challenge, not any sense of hubris.
But yes, I'm getting tired of the atmosphere of appeasement to those who care not to improve their skills, but rather have the game tailored to them, damning anyone else's enjoyment as long as their own is sated.
Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 12-03-2004 02:20 PM
Ducimus
Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:20 pm
#21
Im sure your good, but my point is, when you write like a strutting peacock with a chip on your shoulder and something to prove, its going to get negative responses. That's all im saying.
Just keeping it real is all.
Just keeping it real is all.
LomasAtorian
Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:10 pm
#22
Perhaps to give those that crave a challenge, make even more tiers of ships....6,7,8,9 hell even tier 10 fighters
for someone who is master ace, they probably are 'considered' tier 5 (generally speaking whether they are any good or not). Thus any fighter at tier 5 level may be considered equal (relatively again, we know this isnttrue, they're simply not devious as a human).
Regardless,I think the current AI is fine, just give a few more tiers to play to give ace pilots a possible challenge rather than redo the entire AI flying script...
Another idea is to have the npc's have different flying scripts for different styles. Multiple flying styles or scripted wingman tactics may help, similar to say, the scripted AI of Baldur's Gate (as an example only).
As to the original question, they slow down because people didn't like the lastAI patch with the jousting and all, so the devs tried a different tactic with the AI. Eventually they may insert a nice balance.
As to my opinion, I don't mind the change, its not too terribly difficult, I'm mediocre pilot after all, but it does seem the devs are trying to please the community as a WHOLE. You can please some of the people some of the time, you can't please everyone all of the time.
KaylBreinhar
Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:40 pm
#23
Yes, but in place of jousting we got endless circling and sliding back.
Ducimus
Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:48 pm
#24
KaylBreinhar wrote:
Yes, but in place of jousting we got endless circling and sliding back.
Unless im mistaken, most Air combat, is really a whole lot of circling (or varations of circling) anyway. If you research basic fighter manuevers, you might notice this.
KaylBreinhar
Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:53 pm
#25
Actually, an endless stalemate situation is most comparable to the scissors manuever - a "knife fight" of sorts that usually ends badly for the craft that's engaged defensive.
Davosyn
Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:08 am
#26
Gawzeera wrote:funny how its always those that have mastered the pilot professions that complain that enemies are to easy.I'm a crap pilot and am not afraid to admit it and i'm sure there are many players out there that are like me and have to do missions multiple times before getting it right. I say leave the AI as it is on missions, it provides me with enough of a challenge to still be fun.but there should be more high end content added for the masters.
im not master and i find it easy