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Thread: just a thought
MusicalDina
Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:12 am
#209
I think this thread is a good idea. It has brought a ton of ideas out of the woodwork.
I think the idea of 0 SP is bad.
I have been a Master Doc/Master Musician for about, oh, a year and a half. I picked them up not so much because I wanted to be a Musician, but because I had friends that wanted to start a band and do something different.
It turned out I really liked the playstyle, and helping people/inteacting with others. It was fun because I was desired, not so much to make people's mind wounds go away, but to talk about stuff that was going on. From the trivial stuff like hunting crazed durnis all day to 'We are going to go help rebels defend a base from the tyranical empire."
It was epic, it felt like a real world, and I had a place where I enjoyed the game. I met many many many people, who I became friends with - I met a few special people which I joined their guild and still talk to even though they no longer play this game.
Picking up doctor was just so I could be functional within the guild hunts and still do what I liked doing - helping.
So now for the reason I really hate this idea.
1. Allowing others to do what I do for no cost would take away the clientelle. Why on earth would a player come specifically to me, or ask me to come to them, if i have nothing they cant give themselves.
This is bad because the vast majority of this game's players no longer converse with anybody outside their small circle of friends. They no longer have the oppurtunity to meet other people who might have been potential best friends. I would never have met my guild. I would never have made such great friends with them, had they not needed to come to me for healing.
Functionality is what gives us a place in this game. Without such we would just be an /emote for RPing.
Becoming an /emote for RPing is bad because it limits playability. There would no longer be a need for us. For the current crop of players there is nothing they do that they dont need to. Everything they do is out of need, not want, nor like tos.
They get composite because it is the best. They grind grind grind because its the only way to become the best. they start buffbots completely ruining a playstyle because they need those buffs on a whim and dont lke to interact with others. They make 4 or 5 accounts so they can have everything themselves and no need for anybody.
In the world of need, RPing is a vast minority of action.
2. Letting everybody do what I do, and take the need away from me, negates my purpose to play the game.
What would I do if this happened?
I could sit at a starport and sell buffs, I suppose - though I have never done it I suppose it is possible.
I could play music all day, like I do now, but instead of having the few customers come and talk to me that I do have everyday, i would stand all alone in a cantina waiting for somebody to notice me.
In this game the RPers are very few and far between. it is very hard to find them, and then when you do it is great, and there might be a place for me. But what about the rest of the time? How would I let those combatants know to come dance to my music or play music with me? they are all busy doing their killing thing to notice little ole me- and without the need to come see me, I become a nonfactor, never to be seen again.
Sure there would be events I could go see, but then what is my need there? I would be 1 of 100 people there dancing or playing music. It has potential, but really, these things are not a constant thing that there is always one going on.
My current playstyle is dependant on the functionality of Musician to get me over from the between events, from between times I have stuff to do with my friends.
3. Letting Entertainer and Musician be reduced to 0 SP just increases the trend of this game being a Single Person Game.
Why not just let everybody have all professions then? Just do away with skill points. If combat players have the right to complain they cant dance or play music without spending skillpoints, why cant we complain we cant use a /warcry, or a dxr-6b?
I mean I dont want to spend skillpoints but i still want to solo a Krayt, why cant i?
i want to build my own houses, armor, and weapons why cant i without spending skillpoints?
This is essentially the SAME arguement, as skillpoints makes us choose one over another, that is their purpose!
By making our professions 0SP it deletes us. We are no longer a profession after that. if the devs got rid of Musician/dancer they had better just make two emotes /dance and /music and delete the rest as it would be useless.
Anybody can see what the trend of this game has been. In the beginning it was a very group oriented game. Jedi started the solo trend, and super buffs/weapons/armor continued it. Now everything but the DWB is soloable - and easily at that. Being a doctor in the field is really useless unless you need a rebuff. Being a musician in the field is the same. being a doctor in town you are only needed to provide buffs - being musician is the same.
By eliminating skillpoint cost from entertainers you are doing the soloers and uber players a HUGE favor. You are helping to ruin the Multi player from this game.
After all eliminating the need of 1 enitre aspect of the game just lessens the amount of alts those ubers have to have to hit the 'i win button' .
I really fail to see any positives in this idea. The only one I can kind of see is when at a party everybody could dance. It would be one great disco. It would help RP a little these parties - and not have to spam the emote /dance.
However, instead of asking to negate our entire profession, I think a single basic constant dance would be good that everybody has access to. Though I think since they have no skill it should look rather ungraceful, and have a high chance of falling on your butt.
And maybe you can only perform this dance while listening or watching a musician/dancer?
Oh and maybe make it so the dancers have a certain dance that allows one or a group of the crowd to join in. Like a formal dance that allows one of the crowd that the dancer picks to go dancing with him/her?
So the dancer picks one person out in the crowd and does a command like /dancewith %TT and it then asks the person in the crowd if they would like to dance, and then binds them together until the person in the crowd peforms an action? (same goes with a group if it is a dance like basic or what not - like have a dancer pick 2 people out of the crowd and /dancewith then they do whatever the dancer does - like in music videos hehe) Again a noticeable failure rate with no dancing skill - less with more skills and none for masters. Could you imagine how two master dancers would look doing a formal dance?
Likewise maybe instead of just clapping for musicians some of the patrons start a basic generic dance?
I really think that is a much better solution to your original problem. The entertainers need functionality to continue being a playstyle.
MyT_Chicken
Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:45 am
#210
Exactly, I agree 100% withi this post. *****
MusicalDina wrote:
I think this thread is a good idea. It has brought a ton of ideas out of the woodwork.
I think the idea of 0 SP is bad.
*snip*
I really think that is a much better solution to your original problem. The entertainers need functionality to continue being a playstyle.
Warryyr
Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:32 am
#211
MusicalDina wrote:
...
The entertainers need functionality to continue being a playstyle.
...
Great post, 5 stars. 
LyteFoot
Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:21 am
#212
If entertainers provide any useful functions for the game the act of removing SP would insure that everyone gets the skill themselves and we will not be needed. We would either have to be a totally useless class or have SP requirements. I personally don't want to be a totally useless class and I definitely don't want to see all the work I did leveling ATK go for nothing. So removing SP is simply not a viable option in my opinion.
People won't care how good you animate to deliver the functions they want and they won't care how good you animate to deliver the entertaining "fluff" if they don't want you first for other game reasons. How many buff bots actually present a decent performance? So removing our function kills us, giving our function away to everyone by removing SP kills us, it really is that simple.
People won't care how good you animate to deliver the functions they want and they won't care how good you animate to deliver the entertaining "fluff" if they don't want you first for other game reasons. How many buff bots actually present a decent performance? So removing our function kills us, giving our function away to everyone by removing SP kills us, it really is that simple.
Esharra
Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:45 am
#213
Just playing devil's advocate here...
What good is having a "function" if we're just reduced to being "buff dispensers"?
Vorpaks
Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:59 am
#214
Esharra wrote:Just playing devil's advocate here...What good is having a "function" if we're just reduced to being "buff dispensers"?
I think the buff dispenser mentality is really a player mentality problem, not necessarily a game design problem. ANYONE who provides a service will at some point be treated like a dispenser. Doctors get treated like this constantly. Its your JOB to buff me. People have threatened to report a Doctor friend of mine for griefing because he refused to buff them. From various stories I've heard many crafters get treated like this too. Any tailors run into people who expected them to drop everything right then and make that person anything they wanted in whatever color they deisred? There is no reasoning with people like this, and most people dont even want to. Their behavior dictates that no matter how many times they "win" they always be losers.
I agree that out of all the "dispenser" professions, entertainers have it the worst. Crafterrs can distance themselves through vendors and /annon. Doctors are not limited to healing only in a med center, constantly face to face with tumble spammers and bots. For entertainers "distancing" yourself would be counter-productive and you ARE forced to stay face to face with exploiters 24-7.
But getting rid of our function just so as to not have to deal with these people? If you apply the analogy to any other profession it seems ridiculous. You could allow everyone in the game to heal and buff themselves and it would solve the problem of Doctors being treated like buff dispensers. But wouldn't that be silly?
Not to mention I'm just contrary. The idea of doing anything, especially deleting the usefulness from our profession, in reaction to "those" people (losers) makes me a grumpy wookiee.
Message Edited by Vorpaks on 02-10-2005 01:10 AM
LyteFoot
Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:51 pm
#215
Esharra wrote:Just playing devil's advocate here...What good is having a "function" if we're just reduced to being "buff dispensers"?
Vorpaks said a lot of what I would say. The only thing I'll add is that if/once AFK play is eleminated a lot of that will change. Doctors do get an awful lot of tells and rude people when they are trying to do something other than cater to the childrens needs and once buf-bots are gone we will too. That simply goes with the joy of being a support profession. However doctors also get a lot of polite responses and respect when they are dispensing buffs because it isn't something commonly available from a bot (available but not as common). I think you will see us getting about the same once buff-bots are gone.
Esharra
Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:18 pm
#216
And what if our contribution to profession interdependency was something other than buffs? Maybe something that made the crafters our customers, rather than the combatters? I'm not focusing on any one thing or trying to lead the discussion in any particular direction. But we've got revamps coming up & I'm just wondering where everyone's thoughts are.
Schardour
Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:45 pm
#217
Can you guess where my thoughts are?
(The ones pertaining to this topic? 
)
)
Panthu
Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:20 pm
#218
Sirii pitched that "Crafter Support" idea in here a while ago that got a lot of attention. I think it might be a good idea. It's never really been done before, so it would still be new ground. Most of us shop a lot, so it might make sense to make our functional tie to others (interdependence) be in relation to Crafting and not Combat.
gera
Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:51 pm
#219
/against SP removal
I got different thoughts about this issue.
First of all, SWG is the first game actually there is a seperate entertainer class. I don't want this title to be removed from our beloved game
Secondly,these areproffessions which is "actively" done unlike "Politician". Politician skill points were waste because they were using their abilities per week max.
But SP can be lessened for single elite proffession entertainers. Like only Dancer or only Musician, removing the healing line of entertainer for requirement for them and adding healing points to their proffession.
The1Paladin
Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:11 am
#220
I really wish I had the time to read every single message in this thread. It looks like a discussion worth having. Really. Based on what I have read so far I want to add my 2 credits worth:
0 costing All Entertainer professions is a really bad idea, and here's why: To zero out these professions you're going to have to remove all the benifit of these professions, and that would just be a nightmare. Even zerioing out just Entertainer is a bad idea, because there are things these folks can do that is benificial still.
I would love to see Basic removed from Novice Entertainer and given to the player as a zero cost skill like language (but given to Novice Entertainers by default). Any Entertainer can teach any non-entertainer Basic (just like a language). That in and of itself would help, I think, emerse the non-Ents into the cantina enviornment if they know that they can get up and dance a little jig if the mood strikes them. They wouldn't be able to heal mind wounds or battle fatague without Novice Entertainer, but they could emerse themselves into the RP that occurs every nite (at least on Kettemoor) in some cantina somewhere. (*shameless plug*Tonight at the Green Room! 6 pm Pacific!*/shameless plug*). You could also adjust the Dance line so that Basic2 is also at Novice Entertainer and move the other dances down accordingly. (They could spread out the Exotics, where I think Exotic 1 should be at Novice Dancer or Techniques I. Exotic 3 shoud be at Techniques 4)
The more I think about this idea the more I like it...Although it goes against my thoughts that languages should take skill points, but that is another discussion for another thread in probibly a different forum.
0 costing All Entertainer professions is a really bad idea, and here's why: To zero out these professions you're going to have to remove all the benifit of these professions, and that would just be a nightmare. Even zerioing out just Entertainer is a bad idea, because there are things these folks can do that is benificial still.
I would love to see Basic removed from Novice Entertainer and given to the player as a zero cost skill like language (but given to Novice Entertainers by default). Any Entertainer can teach any non-entertainer Basic (just like a language). That in and of itself would help, I think, emerse the non-Ents into the cantina enviornment if they know that they can get up and dance a little jig if the mood strikes them. They wouldn't be able to heal mind wounds or battle fatague without Novice Entertainer, but they could emerse themselves into the RP that occurs every nite (at least on Kettemoor) in some cantina somewhere. (*shameless plug*Tonight at the Green Room! 6 pm Pacific!*/shameless plug*). You could also adjust the Dance line so that Basic2 is also at Novice Entertainer and move the other dances down accordingly. (They could spread out the Exotics, where I think Exotic 1 should be at Novice Dancer or Techniques I. Exotic 3 shoud be at Techniques 4)
The more I think about this idea the more I like it...Although it goes against my thoughts that languages should take skill points, but that is another discussion for another thread in probibly a different forum.
kirah_ashlin
Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:56 am
#221
Schardour wrote:
Can you guess where my thoughts are?
(The ones pertaining to this topic?
Knowing you, Til - I can guess where your other thoughts are, too . . . .
tsk, tsk!