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Thread: To those who feel that the unwilling should be forced into PvP to master Pilot....
Tdayiel wrote:
I know not many people will side with me on this, but i'm used to it. The fact that you have to pvp is a GREAT tool at the end and should be added to some other missions as well. I understand this is a game, and should be fun, but it's also based on the Star Wars universe which is just a giant war constantly going on. In Lore when 10 TIEs attacked a vette, it wouldn't be just 10 TIEs vs a vette, it was a massive battle between TIEs and reb ships you have to remember they're trying to make it as close to lore as possible. In Episode 6 when all the ships are attacking the Deathstar, it wasn't just the Deathstar vs the entire fleet it was THOUSANDS of ships on both sides. You just have to remember that while the game should be fun, that doesn't mean it should be easy. I have WAY more fun when the game gets difficult and I have to actually put skill into it. When my hands are sweating because i've been grabbing my joystick like if I let go i'll die, that's amazingly fun. For the same reason that people always dream of hitting the homerun in the last inning of the world series to bring their team up from behind to win. It's just exciting to be able to overcome the odds, and the bigger the odds, the more excitement. Oh and you're not a dev stop complaining let them do their jobs. Obviously they've asked what players want, and and done research. =) end of story
God Bless,
~Judge~
I agree, i could not have said it better myself well done.
I am currently one of the top pilots in our guild (despite the whole bunnyhopping problem) I fly with a guy who is twice as good as me (he kills 2 to my one but I'm still blaming the bunnyhop) I think having to do missions in the pvp area could be fun.
Diorchas wrote:
You know what amazes me about PvPers arguing for keeping this system the way it is? They're trying to equate denying content to non-PvPers as equivalent to making the game more difficult and rewarding the PvPers.
First of all, as many here have noted, PvP != difficulty. And even if it did, there are other ways of making a game content difficult without resorting to open PvP (which in turn encourages griefing). I'm all for PvPers having places to play in (re: Kessel), but if I choose to forego PvP I should not be forced to do it to master my chosen profession. That's just asinine. Even the best pilot in the galaxy with the best components in the best ship will never be able to hold his own against a gank squad and no one should have to form a huge flotilla of friends just to master their profession.
Second, I see some PvP hounds talking about how the Master Pilot should be a "reward" for them. They give various reasons, such as the need to keep Mastery rare, the need for incentives to PvP and other things. The people who make these arguments are forgetting one simple, but crucial thing:
You don't have to deny content to anyone else to provide rewards. Look at DAoC. There were incentives and rewards for participating in RvR. Those rewards made your character better at RvR. In other words, participating in PvP garnered rewards that further enhanced your ability to compete in PvP. Such a system did not deny content to those who wanted only to PvE and it rewarded PvPers in a way that did NOT intrude upon anyone elses game experience.
Third, I'm pretty tired of reading the smugness in some of the PvPers posts implying that people who dislike PvP are either p*ssies, whiners or scaredycats. In my experience, most of the people that gain gratification from griefing others (and yes, forcing someone else to participate in a playstyle they hate IS griefing) are the ones least likely to grain gratification from REAL challenges. I have served my country in the military. That's a challenge. I've attended and graduated from one of the most prestigious colleges in the Midwest while working full time. THAT'S a challenge. Pwning people in PvP who don't want to be there in the first place is not a challenge for either party, it's simply griefing.
Finally, those PvPers who think that their playstyle is the only valid one for SWG really need to step outside their own little world and realise that they're in the minority. Most people would rather enjoy the game by raising people up than tearing them down.
Awesome post with some great points.
I hate PvP. I always have. I always will. PvP has no place in a MMORPG environment.
People that like to compete against other human beings haveother online games they can play. Personally I liked Tribes. There was Planetside which I never bought, which added a little bit of the character development theory to games like Doom and Tribes.
Those games are twitch games where almost everyone (with a good enough ping) is on even ground. Its fair.
PvP in MMORPG is not about pitting people against each other on even ground. Its not even about strategy. Its about numbers and FOTM templates. Its about 40 people waiting at a chokepoint for 5 people to wander through. Its about temploiters min/maxing their toon so that they have a superior edge over other people.
In DAoC I thought RvR had potential but was awful. There were no tactics to it. It was all zerg-rush. Yea it was exciting taking a few keeps, but no one took a defended keep they waited until no one else was there to take it. Until Darkness Falls came out which made a lot of RvR into 8 on 8 and 16 on 16 which WAS a lot of fun. Frustrating at times yes but fun.
But I digress. The people who really want to PvP on equal footing and have real challenging combats should pick up Battlefront. There is no sitting in a cantina waiting to be healed after you get whacked in Battlefront. There is no covert/overt. Your success depends on your skill, not on your template and gear.
People who love PvP in a MMORPG environment tend to be people who are not really good enough to PvP in these other games. They get frustrated that a game like Tribes doesn't have an "I WIN!" button. They hate that sometimes they die or they lose. So they turn to the MMORPG environment, min/max their toon, wait for someone with an inferior toon to get in their crosshairs, fire away, then they "/t PWNED N00bZ0rs!!!11!1!111", and have a good laugh and feel better about themselves. The poor guy who gets whacked now has to sit in the cantina, find a medic, repair his ship, it goes on and on and on.
Simply put, my estimate is that 90% or more of PvP in MMORPG is griefing. Its not really people wanting tohave a good 10 on 10 battle of equally capable opponents. Its not really this whole "galactic civil war" which most PvPers throw about to defend their griefing ways. Its sad people who make themselves feel better by picking on unsuspecting others because it gives their life some meaning. Its pathetic.
The poster I quoted mentioned CONTENT and that is the key. SWG, if not for having the Star Wars name, would have gone bust 9 months ago. SWG has no content. They took the easy way out and made PvP the entire content in the game. Instead of them writing up more multi-stage static missions and story arcs and making people feel like there was a GCW, they figured let people fight each other endlessly and without purpose, because as we know PvP changes nothing in the universe we play in, and THAT will be the end game content and we can sit back and not work too hard.
What should be done is the expansion should have PvP based content and PvE based content. Its not so much that only someone who PvPs (or survives his PvE encounter in a PvP zone which all the PvP supporters bring up endlessly) can be called an Ace. Its not even so much that only the PvPer can attain the title Master. If there was actual, true content... fun things to do (like an instanced zone where groups can go on a death star run, or imperials can try to stop rebel transports from escaping Hoth) that were entirely PvE, then the arguments would not be as hot as they are right now. A PvE player could say "Ok I cant be an Ace unless I kill other people, but heck I can still log in and have fun every day doing all this other stuff!" Of course most of the abilities and certifications should be moved off of the Master box because a PvE player should not have a lessened experience simply because they do not want to be griefed. Let him get his B-Wing or YT-1300 or Firespray or whatever.
On the PvP side of things, there should be additional rewards (maybe even additional skill trees) that are based on PvP kills. Nothing overpowering so that a PvP master can solo a fleet of rebel ships, but things that give a slight edge, enough that someone would want to attain them, but not so much that it would be so overpowering that a pilot without that edge could never beat them in a dogfight.
And to all those who say that PvE is boring and there is no challenge and whats the point, please refer to the most successful MMORPG ever... a little game called Everquest. There was basically no PvP there. There was a TON of content. When you maxxed your level there were a LOT of interesting things still to do. People strove to acquire rare items to make their character stronger and there were many raid-oriented zones for a real challenge. People had to actually be good players and smart, and THINK about what they were doing when playing in tough dungeons or going on raids. Not like SWG where you spam specials all day and basically just kill everything. There was strategy and tactics. Dont get me wrong - EQ had lots of problems too, but to say that a MMORPG must have PvP to be fun and challenging is a foolish statement.
Message Edited by ScReemB on 11-03-2004 09:22 AM
VegitoX wrote:
Im not big on PVP, but I dont see the real problem with the Master mission being where it is.
Lets talk about grief for a second, what do you mean by grief...whats your definition? Im only 3-3-3-3 at the moment, but chatting rarely goes on in space from what I gather...who really has time to type NooB, or while flying anyway, you die, you hiteject &its over.
If grief is defined asbeing shout down, well then I get griefed alot by lvl 5 vessels. I dont think the Dev team will move it anytime soon based on player griefing, there really isnt a major reason they should.
No, grief is not the best reason that the missions should be moved, it is one of the reasons, but not the main one. That's true. There are however many good reasons as to why these missions needs to be reworked or moved, and since I've mentioned this in a few other threads already, I'm not going to repeat myself. I will state one reason though, one very good reason for moving the missions:
Nothing good can ever come out of these missions. They really don't serve any purpose at all, there is nothing about them that cannot be done as well and better with just PVE. No one has yet been able to tell me what justifies these missions. No one has yet been able to say why it's such a good idea to have a mission that takes this many hours to complete, contains fighting with the hardest NPCs and where one single shot from another player can end the mission.
No, the issue is not really about griefing, but it's part of it. And it might not even be "real" griefing, but when someone who is mainly into PVE comes along and get their mission ended through one or two shots from someone in a PVP zone, they will percieve that as griefing. And from this, nothing good can ever come. It won't promote PVP, it's not an acceptable challenge if that's the purpose(can be done just as wellthrough PVE). Quite frankly, these missions serve no purpose.
Vikassi wrote:
Cause its fun dude....Stop playing against AI all the time and play against the real thing.....If you dont like itstay on the ground and go perform genocide on your durni's!
Have some fun once in awhile.........
Message Edited by Vikassi on 10-28-2004 10:16 AM
Lol, you just made his point! You're the part of PvP that is dishonorable and giving it a bad rap. Your thinking is quite limited if you think that if its fun for you, then it just HAS to be fun for everyone. I had a friend that worked at Taco Bell. He would give me free food. He liked cheese a lot. He would give me loads and loads of cheese on my burritos cause he thought I should like it as much as he does.
I see the same thing with many minority groups. they want more supporters so they try recruiting people to join their side and think like they do. the thing is... if it reallyWAS that cool, they would be the majority already.
The original poster of this thread is very well spoken and quite the wordsmith. the thoughts were direct and not overdone. And the most important part is that it made sense and is the best summation of the PvP problems and processes we have now. /salute
Wokka-wokka
Vicotnik wrote:
VegitoX wrote:
Im not big on PVP, but I dont see the real problem with the Master mission being where it is.
Lets talk about grief for a second, what do you mean by grief...whats your definition? Im only 3-3-3-3 at the moment, but chatting rarely goes on in space from what I gather...who really has time to type NooB, or while flying anyway, you die, you hiteject &its over.
If grief is defined asbeing shout down, well then I get griefed alot by lvl 5 vessels. I dont think the Dev team will move it anytime soon based on player griefing, there really isnt a major reason they should.
No, grief is not the best reason that the missions should be moved, it is one of the reasons, but not the main one. That's true. There are however many good reasons as to why these missions needs to be reworked or moved, and since I've mentioned this in a few other threads already, I'm not going to repeat myself. I will state one reason though, one very good reason for moving the missions:
Nothing good can ever come out of these missions. They really don't serve any purpose at all, there is nothing about them that cannot be done as well and better with just PVE. No one has yet been able to tell me what justifies these missions. No one has yet been able to say why it's such a good idea to have a mission that takes this many hours to complete, contains fighting with the hardest NPCs and where one single shot from another player can end the mission.
No, the issue is not really about griefing, but it's part of it. And it might not even be "real" griefing, but when someone who is mainly into PVE comes along and get their mission ended through one or two shots from someone in a PVP zone, they will percieve that as griefing. And from this, nothing good can ever come. It won't promote PVP, it's not an acceptable challenge if that's the purpose(can be done just as wellthrough PVE). Quite frankly, these missions serve no purpose.
Point taken, you mentioned that you would be upset to have your player experience ruined in one or two shots, my question to you is Have you PVP'd yet in space, and is there a major difference in damage between NPC's and PC's or is this just an assumption?
Im not attacking your view, id just like to know. Now i'll be doing a bit of assuming, the last Master mission requires that you attack a Corvette...it's fairly widely known that you can not solo this vessel. I assume if you are travelling there to complete the Master Mission that you'll be taking a group with you...right?
And that everyone there should be, or close to the same level. So to die in 1-2 shots is probably not going to happen?...I cant say, I haven't gone through it yet. Is it also fair to say that there are NPC ships flying around as well for players to contend with...so who's to say these griefers wont have their hands full?
Im not arguing one way or the other, it makes me no difference really...its twitch based, therefore my skill determines the outcome not a hi-tech game of rock paper scissors and defense stacking.
VegitoX wrote:
Point taken, you mentioned that you would be upset to have your player experience ruined in one or two shots, my question to you is Have you PVP'd yet in space, and is there a major difference in damage between NPC's and PC's or is this just an assumption?
I'm not arguing for myself here, even though it may seem like that. I'm arguing for the good of the game. And yes, to answer your questions. I have PVPed in space quite a lot. In fact, I've done these missions once during beta, so I have a fairly good idea of what I am talking about. (And I'm not alone, seemed like a very big chunk of beta-masters saw the flaws of these missions). And yes, at high levels, there is a huge difference between NPC and PC combat. In an X-wing with top of the line shields, I have lost my shields in two or threehits and become disabled at the fourth. (These being fired from a TIE interceptor. Likewise, my X-wing could blast a (pc)TIE interceptor into dust in two or three hits. With missiles it was even quicker, especially since people can't carry much counter-measures.
Im not attacking your view, id just like to know. Now i'll be doing a bit of assuming, the last Master mission requires that you attack a Corvette...it's fairly widely known that you can not solo this vessel. I assume if you are travelling there to complete the Master Mission that you'll be taking a group with you...right?
It probably can be soloed with some luck. I would recommend a group though.
And that everyone there should be, or close to the same level.
Not really, there will be master pilots in the area PVPing and they will have superior equipment.
So to die in 1-2 shots is probably not going to happen?
It will happen, especially with the current mass system. PC shields seems to be a lot less powerful than NPC ones. Also, seems a lot like PC weapons are more powerful than most NPC weapons.
...I cant say, I haven't gone through it yet. Is it also fair to say that there are NPC ships flying around as well for players to contend with...so who's to say these griefers wont have their hands full?
Well, it's not really about griefing, anyway. And no, unless the spawn rate in Kessel has increased dramatically, there won't be many NPC's to worry about. There are some, but generally you can avoid them due to their spread out nature. (Unless they are your mission targets, but that's another story).
Im not arguing one way or the other, it makes me no difference really...its twitch based, therefore my skill determines the outcome not a hi-tech game of rock paper scissors and defense stacking.
Yeah, that's true. PVP is actually much more fun and equal in JTL than in the ground game. That does not mean that all people will like it, however. It's just not for everyone, nor should it be. Even some hardcore PVPers will get very frustrated when their mission is failed on their last five ties due to a PVP death.