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Thread: To those who feel that the unwilling should be forced into PvP to master Pilot....
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FalinMor
Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:13 am
#1
...I have to ask a simple question.
Why?
I have yet to hear an actual good reason why a group of people should be forced into a playstyle they don't enjoy. There are no negative effects of moving the Master missions out of a PvP zone.None. So I'm very curious as to why some (few) of you feel so strongly that people should be forced into PvP.
I'll give my thoughts in it, since I'm making this post. 
I enjoy PvP. I've been participating in PvP on the ground for a bit over a year now, and I enjoy it. I'm going to participate in PvP in space as well. But I'm doing it on MY terms, when I want to.
As someone who PvPs, it mystifies me that people want to force the unwilling to do it. It seems to me that the only people who would really support such a thing are those who simply want to prey on unwilling, inexperienced targets. All the TRUE PvPers I know are in it because they want the challenge of fighting against a human opponent. So, to those who want to force PvP on the unwilling, I ask: HOW is that a challenge? Why are you into PvP at all if not for the challenge? I think I know the answer to that, and it's simple: grief.
There are two reasons why people PvP. The first is that they want the challenge and rush of going against another skilled human opponent. These are the TRUE PvP players, and they get a bad rap. The second is that they simply get off on killing other players, regardless of how easy it is. These are the lamers and griefers who give PvP a bad name.
Now people would say "well forcing them to PvP will get them interested in it, and then we have more PvPers".At that I have to laugh. When people are forced to do something they don't want to do, they resent it. When they resent it, they're even less likely to want to try it willingly. Those who don't like PvP will hate it even more, every time they're forced into it and it costs them time and resources. When PvP is forced, the PvPers (even the good ones) are MORE hated by the majority, not less. This is simply human nature.
What we need is a system that ENCOURAGES PvP but doesn't FORCE it. That is how you get more people to participate, and get the perception of PvP and PvPers to be a more positive thing. Forcing PvP on the unwilling just causes a divide, drives a wedge between the two playerbases that causes conflict.
And remember, those of us who enjoy PvP are the minority in MMORPGs. In a fight between PvPers and PvEers for development time, PvE will almost always win, and often to the detriment of PvP. Forcing such divide and resentment between the two camps just makes that fight more likely. I don't want that, do you?
-Falin
Vikassi
Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:16 am
#2
Cause its fun dude....Stop playing against AI all the time and play against the real thing.....If you dont like itstay on the ground and go perform genocide on your durni's!
Have some fun once in awhile.........
Message Edited by Vikassi on 10-28-2004 10:16 AM
Coran_Sienar
Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:19 am
#4
Same point that we've all been making, man.
Nice job, Falin.
yahweh666
Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:19 am
#5
Vikassi wrote:Cause its fun dude....Stop playing against AI all the time and play against the real thing.....If you dont like it stay on the ground and go perform genocide on your durni's!Have some fun once in awhile.........Message Edited by Vikassi on 10-28-2004 10:16 AM
Yet another brain dead PVP nut, that thinks in order for me to have fun in a game I have to PVP.
Maybe for me to have fun, I dont have to have PVP? ever think of that.
Oh never mind I forgot people like you cant think.
KzinKiller
Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:20 am
#6
Keep in mind that the ability to turn pvp on and off at will (or easily) opens up a willingness to grief for many people -- because there are no consequences to griefing in that kind of system. A player harasses, annoys, ganks or griefs someone else until they see that their behavior is leading to retaliation, and then ... they go covert. Immune to retaliation. No consequences for their acts.
You see it over and over again in games where you can flip a switch between pvp and non-pvp.
I have no problem with a system that allows you to permanently remain outside pvp ... but I also have no problem with a system that makes certain content available only if you do pvp. Mostly, I would prefer a system that makes the path BACK from pvp quite a bit more difficult than it is in Galaxies.
You see it over and over again in games where you can flip a switch between pvp and non-pvp.
I have no problem with a system that allows you to permanently remain outside pvp ... but I also have no problem with a system that makes certain content available only if you do pvp. Mostly, I would prefer a system that makes the path BACK from pvp quite a bit more difficult than it is in Galaxies.
Message Edited by KzinKiller on 10-28-2004 10:21 AM
YamadaMan
Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:21 am
#7
PvP in space is fun, ok let's all agree with that point, but PvP at EQUAL LEVELS then, not master against non master, the biggest issue is that a 4444 pilot with level 7 and 8 equipement can't stand a single chance against a master with a master ship, total level 10 equipement and throw in 2 turret operators. that's just not fair, if you're fencer 4444 you won't stand a chance against a master fencer
the issue is 4444 pilots forced to PvP against Master pilots, and that's not even the point of the mission, you still got to take down a kickarse corvette, so spend your missiles/countermeasures while you camp the 2 hours spawnpoint, defending your own a$$, then when the corvette spawn, in the best case you got 70ish% condition equipement, no missiles, no countermeasure, cause you had to defend your batt.
the issue is 4444 pilots forced to PvP against Master pilots, and that's not even the point of the mission, you still got to take down a kickarse corvette, so spend your missiles/countermeasures while you camp the 2 hours spawnpoint, defending your own a$$, then when the corvette spawn, in the best case you got 70ish% condition equipement, no missiles, no countermeasure, cause you had to defend your batt.
FalinMor
Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:22 am
#8
Vikassi wrote:
Cause its fun dude....Stop playing against AI all the time and play against the real thing.....If you dont like itstay on the ground and go perform genocide on your durni's!
Have some fun once in awhile.........
Message Edited by Vikassi on 10-28-2004 10:16 AM
Yes, PvP is fun to YOU, personally. It is to me too.
Others don't have the same idea of fun as you do. Some people find crafting fun, some people find fighting nothing but AI fun, some people find socializing in a cantina fun.
The fact that you personally find something to beenjoyable is absolutely not a good reason why everyone else should be forced to adhere to your idea of fun. That's nothing more than selfish behavior.
Try again.
Falin
LowbaTherf
Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:27 am
#9
may I ask you a question? Why should the developers not be able to put restrictions on a master level profession? Becoming a master level pilot means you get to fly special ships and get special skills. It is not forced onto players, it is a choice just like Jedi. If you do not want to PvP, you don't get the special ships. If you ant the special ships you don't get to shy away from PvP. If I want to be a shipwright or droid engineer, I have to make things that aren't droids, and aren't spaceships. And if I don't want to craft, I choose another profession. Unless I think it is worth it to be able to build a ship or droid. So, make a choice, PvP, or a lesser ship. I believe it is a fair choice.
P.S. I agree about disliking PvP. Lost many a good land speeder to PvP. _ _ So I run around covert now instead of overt.
P.S. I agree about disliking PvP. Lost many a good land speeder to PvP. _ _ So I run around covert now instead of overt.
FalinMor
Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:30 am
#10
KzinKiller wrote:
Keep in mind that the ability to turn pvp on and off at will (or easily) opens up a willingness to grief for many people -- because there are no consequences to griefing in that kind of system. A player harasses, annoys, ganks or griefs someone else until they see that their behavior is leading to retaliation, and then ... they go covert. Immune to retaliation. No consequences for their acts.
You see it over and over again in games where you can flip a switch between pvp and non-pvp.
I have no problem with a system that allows you to permanently remain outside pvp ... but I also have no problem with a system that makes certain content available only if you do pvp. Mostly, I would prefer a system that makes the path BACK from pvp quite a bit more difficult than it is in Galaxies.
Message Edited by KzinKiller on 10-28-2004 10:21 AM
I agree, but that doesn't really apply in this case. In this particular case, we're forcing everyone who wants to master a pilot profession into a situation where they will be attacked by other players bent on nothing more than ruining their gaming experience. That is a BAD thing. In Kessel, there really are no consequences for bad behavior. You die, you take a little decay and some wounds, you jump back in and fight again.
As things stand now, you are in Kessel for two reasons:
1. To finish your Master mission
2. To kill other players.
This system ENCOURAGES antisocial behavior. You're shoving two playstyles that aren't compatible together in a situation that accomodates those who want nothing more that to get some giggles from ruining someone else's gameplay. That is simply unacceptable.
I'm all for making some content unavailable to those who don't like PvP... but not mastery of a profession. If you want a combat-ready multiplayer ship, you have to master. That content is too important and fun to deprive the majority of the playerbase from having it for no good reason. That's just one example.
-Falin
HuntingOhioan
Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:31 am
#11
Because I dont want to spend a month flying around at odd times looking for REAL people to help me advance. "Would you be my Master Level Kill pleaase??? Preety please??? I'll let you kill me a few times after sir/ma'am.
TheRealTK421
Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:32 am
#12
I want to play a Jedi.
FalinMor wrote:
I have yet to hear an actual good reason why a group of people should be forced into a playstyle they don't enjoy.
I don't consider it to be a playstyle that I enjoy to ever PvP.............ever. Not once.
So, I don't want to be forced into PvP with a BH just cause I want to play a Jedi.
/bow
Respectfully,
FalinMor
Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:32 am
#13
LowbaTherf wrote:
may I ask you a question? Why should the developers not be able to put restrictions on a master level profession? Becoming a master level pilot means you get to fly special ships and get special skills. It is not forced onto players, it is a choice just like Jedi. If you do not want to PvP, you don't get the special ships. If you ant the special ships you don't get to shy away from PvP. If I want to be a shipwright or droid engineer, I have to make things that aren't droids, and aren't spaceships. And if I don't want to craft, I choose another profession. Unless I think it is worth it to be able to build a ship or droid. So, make a choice, PvP, or a lesser ship. I believe it is a fair choice.
P.S. I agree about disliking PvP. Lost many a good land speeder to PvP. _ _ So I run around covert now instead of overt.
As I've said, my point is that there's NO GOOD REASON to do it at all. The developers can do whatever they want, it's their game. But I'm asking you to give a good reason why they SHOULD do it. I honestly don't think there is one. I've seen plenty of bad reasons that only make sense to selfish people and griefers, but that's about it.
Falin
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