Jedi Archive
Thread: -40 Combat Speed Debuff. Does It Need a Nerf? Hard Numbers Inside.
The brackets will indicate the boundaries of the interval, and "l" shapes will indicate the attacks. The "." will indicate periods of time in between. This is howthe data was taken:
[l.....l......l.......l.....l......l.....l.....l......l......l......l.....l...]..l.....l
Notice that only 12 attacks fell in the 60 second interval.
The above graph shows that the attacks are about 4.7 seconds apart. If, indeed, the actual interval was that and I increased the testing interval to 10 minutes, you would see the attacks per second go from 12/60 = .2 to about 128/600 = .213. This is a difference of 100% - .2/.213 = 100% - .94 = 6%.
So basically, the differenceseen in a 10 minute test would be + or - 6% of whatwas the final speed decrease.With the 6% error, the result would be between 24.8% and 28% for a test run for 10 minutes. Keep in mind that this is a broad way of calculating the error that could occur, but it is sufficient.
In addition, the 26.4% attack speed decrease from the -40 attack speed debuff was achieved through an average of the results from the two tests. Also, in addition, I ran two, previous tests over only a 40 second interval, and the results were slightly above the 26.4% number. If I remember, the average of those two results was 27.5%, but you can see that a 60 second interval has a greater probability of being more accurate.
ADDRESSING COUNTERS
Some players feel that there is no effective way to counter the approximate 26.4% change in thier attack rate, but this is not actually the case. Addressing the concerns of Jedi, only Jedi-available counters will be included. There are many ways to counter the speed debuff.
The first is Armor Break. Armor Break causes a 65% decrease in the armor rating of a target. Applied to a target with 7000 resist energy armor, their armor rating will drop to 2450. According to Armorsmith Forum values (http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=armorsmith&message.id=91857), the actual change in protection between these armor values is 27.5%, which means that a Jedi will do about 27.5% more damage to their target. This 27.5% already cancels out the combat speed debuff, and Armor Break can be constantly applied throughout an entire fight.
Players retort by discussing the 75% chance of Armor Break mitigation slice. Players misconcieve that this is NOT a 75% decrease in the effects of Armor Break, but it is a 75% CHANCE that the effects of Armor Break is mitigated. The degree of this mitigation is really unknown at this point, but if it is assumed to actually decrease the overall effectiveness of Armor Break by 75%, then Jedi who apply Armor Break on targets will see a 7.1% increase in their damage output, when the mitigation takes effect. Because it is a 75% chance that AB is mitigated, the overall damage increase done to the target will be .25 X 27.5% + .75 X 7.1% = 12.2%.
Comparing the 26.4% decrease in a Jedi's attack speed with the meager 12.2% increase in damage on the target will result in an over decrease in a Jedi's damage rate by 14.2%. So far, it looks like Jedi have no effective counters that are available, but the effects of Force, Doctor, or Food combat speed buffs has not even been taken into effect.
While many would take on face value that a Doctor combat speed buff or a Force Speed Debuff would more than overwhelm a 14.2% change. From here, proving this is rather uncredible, but a general idea can be taken if one assumes that a -40 combat speed debuff would have the same, but opposite, effect as a +40 combat speed buff. If this were the case, one can do some rough figuring. If a 40 combat speed change produces a 27% attack speed change, and a +10 combat speed change produces a 10% change (this was determined by comparing Test 1.b) and Test 2.b) above), then the probable increase derived from a +20 combat speed change woulddo somewhere in the ballpark of 18% of a change in a player's attack speed.
What this shows us roughly, is that if a Jedi with a Force Speed 2 buff and the Armor Break skill fought a player with 7000 energy resist armor who possessed the skill to do a -40 combat speed debuff, then at the end of the day, the Jedi would STILL be doing 18% - 14.2% = about 3.8% MORE damage to the targeted player than if none of the players were using any Armor Breaks, Force Speed, or combat speed debuffs.
In conclusion, if a Jedi takes the time to get a Force Speed or Doctor Buff and applies Armor Break on a target, then that Jedi will ALWAYS be capable of delivering more than their default damage.
Also, in closing, the number "26.4%" is an approximation. It is a GOOD idea of the actual effects of the -40 combat speed debuff, and even if longer tests were run, the result would not likely vary between 24.8% and 28%. Please take the time to understand some of the arguments made here, and I encourage others to do testing of their own. I do have screenshots of the combat log timestamps if anyone is interested.
Message Edited by Ternque01 on 08-18-2005 02:39 PM
A 26.4% decrease in a target's attack speed in well within balanced parameters for a debuff attack.It is in no danger of disrupting game balance.
Message Edited by FarSuperior on 08-12-2005 10:35 PM
you the man, very nice job, very well layed out and expertly written so as not to be confusing at all,
good job
aose wrote:
yeah well, put sap back up to there debuff rate then it will be balanced... They dont want our skill being more powerful then theres so they nerf ours lower then theres.. Yeah that sounds fair to me. Good for one is good for the other..
Again, a 26.4% decrease doesn't break game balance. If you want to nerf a few professions out of spite, I might have some issues with that.
aose wrote:
did i say nerf them? no i didnt.. Put our sap back where it was or equal to them.. Sap got nerfed below what CM version is.. Now does that sound fair to you? well hell it doesnt to me..
its SOE logic does it have to make sense?
aose wrote:
did i say nerf them? no i didnt.. Put our sap back where it was or equal to them.. Sap got nerfed below what CM version is.. Now does that sound fair to you? well hell it doesnt to me..
its SOE logic does it have to make sense?
I posted it in the Smuggler, Pikeman, and Combat Medic forums. These are the only professions with the -40 combat combat speed modifier.
I ALSO posted it in the Jedi forum, the seemingly main source of those players who are seeking to nerf the skill =/
At least this data will clear up any misinformation out there so we can ALL move forward in this game.
Ternque01 wrote:I posted it in the Smuggler, Pikeman, and Combat Medic forums. These are the only professions with the -40 combat combat speed modifier.
I ALSO posted it in the Jedi forum, the seemingly main source of those players who are seeking to nerf the skill =/
At least this data will clear up any misinformation out there so we can ALL move forward in this game.
Brave man trying to interject logic into the Jedi forums. The only thing that they care abot there is getting more power at the expense of everyone else in the game.
You know what I find to be really amusing, find a current Jedi that constantly screams for Jedi improvements/other character nerfs... and look at their post history, amazingly you can see a time before they were Jedi that they actually cared about the health of the game, and many of them posted against Jedi... see what a little power (albeit it digital) does to people?