Jedi Archive

....so i'll explain:

1) x44x LS hits as hard and as fast as M.LS

2) M.defender is only a little better than xx4x defender in PVP

i've been looking at several templates recently in an attempt to avoid the M.LS, Def, healer type cookie cutter template.... with an eye to the math involved. i finally came to settle with:

oddly, due to the depreciating returns forumula for speed Post CU, ahigh speed skill is rather wasted, as is accuracy. x44x LS hits only 0.03 seconds slower and 1 pt less damage than M.LS. it does however lack ranged attacks, but that can be balanced elsewhere.

the problem with M.Defender is in PVP almost any jedi will armorbreak you in the first or second hit, rendering your 7000 innate armor little better than a 3000novice defender. PVE or VS BH might be different, but VS a BH i can use force armor for the same effectof 7000 innate armor (not many swordsman/BHs). and if you need more than 3000 armor in PVE you're doing something wrong, or need a friend.

odly too Improved Aura is only really effective Vs Non Jedi as accuracy only effects where the damage delt falls for the opposition between max and min damage or their weapon.

so in PVP i can run about with no force armor or auraand only 3000 innate in the expectation that i'll be armor broke, and VS BHs hit aura and force armor for an un-armorbroke 7000 innate armor. my only real difficulty is choosing between LS x4x4 or x44x - a choice of area attack (wonderfull in PVP)and a low FC head/leg spam attack or a KD and a ranged attack but more pressure on my force and the extra block (really usefull in BH encounters but rather redundant in PVP).

so in my eyes i dont loose anything much compaired to M.Def, M.LS, 3xxx heal, xxx2 enchbut gain FR2, force speed2, cloak, meditate (for what its worth) drain force, stasis, poison cure (nice vs the new CM breed), some nice resistsVS Master Powersand regain consiousness.

so what do you guys think? sound ideas or just the day dreams of a long week at work!

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Puttley wrote:

....so i'll explain:

1) x44x LS hits as hard and as fast as M.LS

2) M.defender is only a little better than xx4x defender in PVP

i've been looking at several templates recently in an attempt to avoid the M.LS, Def, healer type cookie cutter template with an eye to the math involved. i finally came to settle with:

M.Enhancer, LS x44x (or x4x4), Healer 4xxx, Powers x4xx, Defender xx4x

oddly, due to the depreciating returns forumula for speed Post CU high speed skill is rather wasted as is accuracy. x44x LS hits only 0.03 seconds slower and 1 pt less damage than M.LS. it does however lack ranged attacks, but that can be balanced elsewhere.

Using a 2.5basespeed saber:

MLS speed = 132 + 50 (in SEAs) = 182 or 1.46 mod speed

x4x4 LS speed = 87 + 50 (in SEAs) = 132 or 1.49 mod speed

Using a 650 - 720 + 200 ele damge saber Vs 3000 innate amor & 650 melee def:

MLS accuracy = 227 + 50 (in SEAs) = 277 or 533 damage

x4x4 accuracy = 172 + 50 (in SEAs) = 222 or 534 damage

the problem with M.Defender is in PVP almost any jedi will armorbreak you in the first or second shot, rendering your innate armor little better than a novice defender. PVE or VS BH might be different, but VS a BH i can use force armor for the same effectof 7000 innate armor (not many swordsman/BHs). and if you need more than 3000 armor in PVE you're doing something wrong, or need a friend.

Using a 650-720 +200 ele dam saber with 275 accuracy:

Vs M.Def with NO Armor Break = 420

VsM.Def WITH Armor Break = 578

Vsxx4x def with NO Armor Break = 535

Vs xx4x def WITH Armor Break = 622 (only 7% more than M.Def)

odly too Improved Aura is only really effective Vs Non Jedi as accuracy only effects where the damage delt falls for the opposition between max and min damage or their weapon.

Using a 650-720 +200 ele dam saber with 275 accuracy vs jedi with 3000 innate armor and 105 melee defence:

Vs jediwith aura ON = 535

VS jedi with aura OFF = 547

Using a rifle 500-1185 damage with 275 accuracy vs jedi with 3000 innate armor and 105 melee defence:

Vs jediwith aura ON = 347

VS jedi with aura OFF = 460 (before any account of saber block)

so in PVP i can run about with no force armor or auraand only 3000 innate in the expectation that i'll be armor broke, and VS BHs hit aura and force armor for an un-armorbroke 7000 innate armor. my only real difficulty is choosing between LS x4x4 or x44x - a choice of area attack (wonderfull in PVP)and a low FC head/leg spam attack or a KD and a ranged attack but more pressure on my force and the extra block (really usefull in BH encounters but rather redundant in PVP).

so in my eyes i dont loose anything much compaired to M.Def, M.LS, 3xxx heal, xxx2 enchbut gain FR2, force speed2, cloak, meditate (for what its worth) drain force, stasis, poison cure (nice vs the new CM breed), some nice resistsVS Master Powersand regain consiousness.

so what do you guys think? sound ideas or just the day dreams of a long week at work!

---

MLS is not worthless, in fact, it is one of the most useful of all masteries.

You forget that melee / ranged defense DECREASES your being hit rate greatly.

If 3 riflemenshoot you at the same time, you're dead, but if theyshoot at me, at least one, probably 2 of them will miss ( if I am on pikatta pie )

As has been said many different times, learn to play your template and you will see what the true strengths and weaknesses are. Numbers don't lie, but you will need to include ALL the numbers. Look at the innate defenses that MLS gives, the advantage of several different states and different tier 4 hits on seperate times. The increase in LS experimentation. The ranged KD. The same goes for the other lines in defender. You can't just throw a limited list of numbers and expect that they will show the whole truth.

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Etragahl (Former Jedi, Now SOE Slave)
Tal'Ira (Former Creature Handler, Now SOE Slave)

Dear SOE Developers, can I have some of what your smoking??

-Aaron'shin De'wintres
"There is no art more beautiful and diverse than the art of death."

The fire, it knows me
I can walk through the blaze without a mark
Forever it owes me
The life I lost in the dark

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Dekka1 wrote:
MLS and MDef worthless? Son, what you have there is a PEBKAC problem.

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To translate: Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard

No,his post is somewhat accurate.

Master Defender isn'tvery goodw/out Aura and Master Lightsaber isn't much betterthan someone w/0404 Lightsaber andForce Speed 2 activated.

Now what I don't agree on is that they're both worthless... and its all in the eye of the beholder....

If done correctly numbers don't lie, but then again you're not considering all of the varibales. To you and your circumstances, it might be worthelss, but to someone else its might be just what they need.

What makes Defender good is Aura stacked ontop of Innate armor, and modded up w/ Dodge food, Melee Defense Clothes etc.... In doing this, you have a good dodge bonus and don't use a significant amount of force power (as you do w/ Force Armor 2) allowing you to hold onto the AIs if you are really in a desperate situation. Usually, at the end of a duel vs. and Enhancer, the Enhancer will be out of force where I still have 75% of mine left w/out ever having to use AI. Of course that is a Duel and Duels are significantly different from massive PVP battles in such that you actually don't stand next to each other and are running away, healing, ganking etc....

Template Wise Defender isn't heavily reliant on Force Power or healing (if you're good) so you basicaly have more freedom in your template (Double Mastery-wise) if you choose to goMLS, MDEF, allowing you to take a variant of Healer 2-4 and Enhancer 2-3 boxes in enhancer.

Lightsaber is really subjective on the person and the person who uses it. Basically if you have a pre-CU saber that excels in FC, Speed and damage (Really Good Pearls), you might find more use out of just taking 0404 Lightsaber and Force Speed 2. This is even deadlier if you manage to be capped on mods, which will significantly lower your attack speed.

Then again, those new post-CU jedi have it pretty bad in speed and damage, meaning their saber will be pretty slow, and would benefit a lot from MLS. Accuracy + Speed mods found in both FS boxes and Lightsaber boxes on top of tapes really help close the gap for those less "fortunate." Also some of those Jedi that have pre-CU sabers don't even benefit from the new Skill Attachments that have been introduced, for example I know someone who has 1.23 mod speed saber, attempted to add +14 General Melee Speed and had his speed reduced to 1.21 mod speed w/ no significant difference in combat.

Like I said, its all in the eye of the beholder, also, Master Lightsaber is Highly effective due to that "ranged attack" called Sabethrow 3. Saber Throw at MLS is pretty sick, one (if not second to powerhit) damaging moves Lightsaber has, it both deals a significant amount of damage, and KDs the opponent allowing for more damage to come in. Yes saber sweep KDs too, but it doesn't have the power behind it as Saberthrow does. Not to mention its pretty devastating vs. Kiters.

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