Jedi Archive
Thread: 750 max damage lightsaber in action/My observation of current combat system.
Message Edited by Zabba on 10-03-2005 03:51 PM
Ok I read that and agree.
But what's your Saber Stats have to do with anything? lol
Message Edited by alphawolf100 on 10-03-2005 03:53 PM
Zabba wrote:
My lightsaber has 750max damage, 11fc and 1.2 speed. So all the below data and experiances are with a saber of the stated stats.
I can safely say 750 max damage is almost has high as a jedi's lightsaber damage can go. There are better sabers than mine, but mine is considered top of the line and it is pre-CU. Now recently as all jedi already know, CMs/Doctors have been causing troubles with their unbalance healing and debuffs. However on the other side of the debate CMs claim they are fully balanced. So I'm taking this time to compare the 2 together. First of please do not compare a master CM with a full template jedi, because with having Master CM you still have enough skill points to spend on combat professions while a full template jedi is maxed on skill points. Lets compare a Rifleman/CM to the jedi skill trees. then they can't hunt you if they don't have MBH.
Master Healer vs Master CM/Master rifleman
Master healer is utterly broken don't use it as an excuse to nerf cm.
Jedi heals : Cost mind and force. Limited the jedi's ability to heal. Cool down timer 5-6secs, 1500 power of the heal. ( improved heal )
Combat Medicbacta shot: Only costs minds. With enhancers 1700 healing, cool down 2secs. Not having to worry about force limitations.
You are probably right here, mind needs to regen slower while in battle or something.
Combat Medic bacta spray : Only costs mind. With enhancers 1200-1300 healing power, cool down timer 2secs.
Jedi total heal : Massive force cost, completely heals a jedi, mind cost, cool down timer 6secs. Force and mind limitations.
Combat Medic action/mind debuff : only costs mind to use. Higher duration than imporved force and stronger debuff.
Jedi Improved force sap : 35% action debuff/30% mind debuff, duration only 60secs, costs both force and mind to use.
Combat medic combat speed debuff : jedi has no counter to this.
Force Speed, and the thyroid only needs to be nerfed to 25% like doc buffs
Combat medic DoT abilities : A jedi healer must take up master powers for any DoT damage.
Force choke - DOT
Combat medic's ability to wear armor therefore preventing their needs to take up defences or innate armor: jedi healer has no counter. They are forced to pick up force armor or defender.
This is true but with a MCM MBH temp they can't wear the 8k stuff so Mdef has much better defense.
Combat medics snare and paralyze : a jedi healer has no counter to this must take up enhancer trees for snares and roots.
That's not fair they took up CM for those like you took up enhancer for those. A BH loses massive speed and accuracy for picking that temp, loses the 8k armor, and the only good attacks he gets is critcal and torso.
Now as you see above a Master Combat medic is MUCH more efficiant than ANY jedi skill tree on its own. Now Combat Medics argue that well compare us to a full template jedi. Well folks, no we cant do that, we will compare a full template combat medic and their other combat abilities to a full template jedi. Now a Master Combat has more powerful debuffs, than a jedi, MUCH better healing than a jedi, much better armor than a jedi, Remember no 8k for MCM hehe much better DoTs than that of a jedi. Wastes massive ammounts of mind to get all to stickWhen they pick up fencer or rifleman or swordman on the side. A CM/MBH has not even enough room to pick up a nov melee profession Much better weapons than that of a jedi's lightsaber. Now someone with logical reasons explain to me how combat medics and doctors are not overpowered. I just did. Maybe less regen on mind thats basically all.
Non-jedi healing needs a nerf, ATLEAST a 6secs timer like that of a jedi. I think that instead more trees in Healer means faster heals that should beput inCM debuffs should be on pair with a jedi healer's debuffs not better but atleast equal. Not STRONGER !!!!PossiblyChanges are needed. With master lightaber/force speed 2/ and a saber with 1.2 speed/750 max damage I am unable to overcome a CM's armor/armor break slice/all the healing + stim packs/debuffs/ their much stronger weapons depending on their combat templates...I agree that armor break slices are MUCH too strong, but I have a 675 saber at like 1.4 with force speed 2 and I beat most BH/CM's you just have to hit hard and fast if they try to cm you while that happens they will not be able to heal and even if they get all the stats on you their minds at half..I mean I dont even come close to an incap. The CM or doctor will just stand in one spot and spam heals until the jedi is out of force. Mind and action regen very fast Ya mind regens too fast with all the buffs and spices around so they don't have to worry about running out skill meters such as action and mind.
Simply I don't think anyone can argue and say non-jedi healing and CM debuffs need a nerf.
Message Edited by Kesai on 10-03-2005 03:56 PM
I would like to see a screenshot of your saber, really. My stats are 720'ish with 9fc and I have no problem with CMs with AB-sliced gear and great weapons while fully fooded. I have never once been unable to kill one of these bounty hunters, though I suppose if sone came after you while your HAM was down or your force was really low, it would be hard. But in an even contest (and that doesn't always happen) you should really win as a MLS with that saber...I know many who do not have that high of quality sabers and do just fine.
As for the argument, their healing does not really need a nerf. If we were to digress back and take their heals down at all, it would put them in a position where I doubt they would ever win a fair fight. Not saying all fights should be fair, but making it so that the only way a BH can get a win is by hoping their target is AFK, channeling, or low on HAM or force is kinda silly. Why should Jedi healing be balanced? We're not the same as normal professions. It's more like all of the disciplines in the Jedi world have very nice things which mirror their non-Jedi counterparts. Innate armor, armor break, good heals, melee/ranged defense mechanism (Aura), etc are all nice pieces of Jedi. You can't compare a single piece to a non-Jedi and so 'OMGZ, ours is worse than theirs.' Jedi are like a puzzle and you pick and choose things to complement each other to define your own role. A Master Defender/4xxx healer with at least 0404 Sabers becomes very hard for a ranged profession to defeat because of the strong defense and healing, the only downside is you are either going to be less varied in offense or you lack Enhancer, both weaknesses that can be exploited by whomever is attacking you.
You can't compare non-Jedi to Jedi skills all the time. If that were true, then we would have to give a non-Jedi profession the Avoid Incap ability because there is not one for them. And then perhaps they should have a force run ability (sans SL of course) that they can activate whenever they wish. See why you can't do this? Our healing is okay. If you find complements that make your gameplay work, then that's all you need. But honestly, with that kind of a saber, I find it impossible to believe that you are saying things like this.
i think most of the problem is in the saber speed bug..from what i understand our sabers are not working at modified speed...along with pearl fixes etc..i believe it will be fine..i do agree too many goodies with combat medic....a jedi would not have enough sp's to even come close to obtaining the abilities a cm does...and since jedi is considered an alpha class supposedly 1.5x's stronger than any full temp cl80 professions i agree the devs have made some serious combat flaws with jedi that need to be fixed and make jedi stronger than what we are now...keep combat medic the same i don't care..just make us stronger...i think they should take down our heal timer to 3 seconds...fix the speed bug..fix the pearl drops..fix the ls speed tape bugs...there is a lot of bugs in the jedi profession that is really hindering us atm...so i say keep complaining to fix all the jedi bugs and see how much more powerful we get when our profession is fixed..
Ceasar
Jedi Knight
Sunrunner
lilceaser wrote:
i think most of the problem is in the saber speed bug..from what i understand our sabers are not working at modified speed...along with pearl fixes etc..i believe it will be fine..i do agree too many goodies with combat medic....a jedi would not have enough sp's to even come close to obtaining the abilities a cm does...and since jedi is considered an alpha class supposedly 1.5x's stronger than any full temp cl80 professions i agree the devs have made some serious combat flaws with jedi that need to be fixed and make jedi stronger than what we are now...keep combat medic the same i don't care..just make us stronger...i think they should take down our heal timer to 3 seconds...fix the speed bug..fix the pearl drops..fix the ls speed tape bugs...there is a lot of bugs in the jedi profession that is really hindering us atm...so i say keep complaining to fix all the jedi bugs and see how much more powerful we get when our profession is fixed..
Ceasar
Jedi Knight
Sunrunner
totally agree. Like I said in my original thread, I'm not asking to make jedi abilities stronger. However make ATLEAST same as CM. Why should the jedi imporved sap have force AND mind cost .. while its much weaker than combat medic debuffs?
Also to the person that said they have never had a trouble killing the CMs. No I really do managew to kill "most", however like someone mentioned it might be the speed bug, but it has alot to do with server resources as well. On naritus our CMs heal 1700+ every 2 secs. It is nearly impossible to get their healths down, take this into account then add stim pack healing to it as well. I even fought these CM /docotrs with force armor off. They can't incap me unless I run out of force. Which is the case. If they are a BH isually just run away. However I wasn't really speaking of "BH" bit talking about CM/docter in general and GCW. I don't think it is even fair to other non-jedi professions. Combat medics with so little skill points spent, they get so much in return. So do doctors, like I said on Naritus ... our doctors and CMs heal 1700+ every 2 secs ....
lilceaser wrote:
i think most of the problem is in the saber speed bug..from what i understand our sabers are not working at modified speed...along with pearl fixes etc..i believe it will be fine..i do agree too many goodies with combat medic....a jedi would not have enough sp's to even come close to obtaining the abilities a cm does...and since jedi is considered an alpha class supposedly 1.5x's stronger than any full temp cl80 professions i agree the devs have made some serious combat flaws with jedi that need to be fixed and make jedi stronger than what we are now...keep combat medic the same i don't care..just make us stronger...i think they should take down our heal timer to 3 seconds...fix the speed bug..fix the pearl drops..fix the ls speed tape bugs...there is a lot of bugs in the jedi profession that is really hindering us atm...so i say keep complaining to fix all the jedi bugs and see how much more powerful we get when our profession is fixed..
Ceasar
Jedi Knight
Sunrunner
Thats what I am talking about too.
Well, if someone spends the necessary skill points to master CM or Doc, then they should definitely heal well. This means they are probably slightly lacking somewhere else, either defenses or offense. Even if they are not, you still have other things at your disposal. Many CMs, if they are ranged, have no way to armor break you. So even though it is true that they are sliced against it, that's something they do not have at all. Second, escape measures are something Jedi are great at and there isn't much any others can do about it. Force Run, Cloak, AI, etc. But like I said, you can't just compare healing to healing because there's much more going on. What if the player is a Master Defender and puts on Valor with Aura up? That's difficult to beat, but you can't just say 'well it's not fair that they get that kind of defense, so nerf it.' When you try to balance things, you have to look at the whole picture. In total, are Jedi balanced to the point where they can effectively fight other players? Yes (except, the pearl issue, but we can't really get into that in an argument about healing). Jedi have the option to select their templates to suit their roles and based on my playing experiences as both a Jedi and a BH, they can PvP and defend themselves effectively. Their healing is fine, and small things like Infusion and Aura being applied constantly greatly improve their odds.
There may be some templates that just aren't suited for a 1 on 1 encounter. MHealer/MPowers/4004 Enhancer...that probably is a big-time support template. But based on the information you gave me, you should stand to do just fine against any non-Jedi template that is thrown at you. CMs and Docs give up a lot of skill points if they master their professions and should get the rewards. Jedi have the ability to pick some great skills that are spread out and come up with super good templates. I really do feel it is balanced for the most part. My only big issues are with pearl/crystal drops which do make it impossible for some Jedi to compete, and the issue of a few Jedi skills needing to be taken a look over (Master Healer and Powers namely).