Jedi Archive

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AnknSkywlkr wrote:

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HarlequinMK19 wrote:

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AnknSkywlkr wrote:

A melee character ought to be able to get within range at some point within a fight and should be deadly when they do.

NO. That's the drawback of melee...and why it's an inferior form of combat in real life. Goswing your sword inWoW.

A fine start....if you're 12 years old. A) SWG is NOT real life and does not have to play by your so called real life rules. It is meant to be a fantasy game (go figure!) and should therefore play by certain rules. If the game is to be balanced -- which, presumably, this game is meant to be -- you cannot give preference to ranged over melee in all situations. B) Though I tried to avoid making this specific to Jedi, I would say in the world of Star Wars, a melee Jedi fighter was superior to their ranged counterparts in almost every way. You want to go Star Wars "real world" then blaster bolts ought to be redirected right back at the kiting offenders half the time, which clearly isn't the case.

Oh, and Dr. Real Life? You often see ranged combatants "In real life" running full speed as if they weren't holding a gun at all and hitting their targets 80-95% of the time with no hindrance or accuracy effects whatsoever. They show that sort of combat footage all the time on The History Channel....

A)This isa SCI-FI oriented game. Do you comprehend that. I don't want to see fools with swords running around. If I wanted that, I'd go play WoW or Guild Wars or something like that. And no kidding it's not real life, please don't even try to use that one on me because it's tired and old. I can, however, very easily give preference to ranged over melee. Plenty of other games do it, and there's no reason this one can't either..to make it more in line with STAR WARS. And to bring up game balance...wow...that's a joke. What balance? There is no. It's already slated in favor of melee and you want it more so.

Last I checked, firearms, by the sheer ergonomics of their design are in fact much less hindering than a melee weapon. And given current designs, they tend to weigh less. Now granted something like a GPMG is going to put a damper on anyone lugging it around, but handguns and carbines...please.

B) And last I checked in Star Wars, the only melee fighters were the Jedi...who are possessed of SUPERNATURAL ability. And jeeze...in the end, they got gunned down didn't they?

- Get rid of armor break reduction slicing all together. This is a fundamentally flawed game mechanic. Armor break was meant to be one of the few penalties for a ranged profession when a melee fighter gets in close. Now, armor break is all but useless in PvP.If you are going to keep armor break reduction in game, I also recommend you give ALL melee professions Innate Snare Resistance, Innate Root Resistance, Innate Ranged Knockdown Defense, and Innate Ranged Dodge. Of course, none of these will ever be introduced, so why would you further reduce the effectiveness of melee against ranged? As i see it, the snare changes will only serve to make more people choose ranged over melee for any PvP application, which may well have been the intention all along.

Yeah, the only thing the CU did was put some more power back into ranged professions...where it belongs. But, there is still melee dominance everywhere in this game, so I have no idea what crack you're smoking, but pass it along

Again, real mature and a fine logical argument. As far as i can see, there are still plenty of good ranged players out there. So, ditch the hyperbole and back up your gross generalizations. Can you melee stack? Sure. Can you snare/root stack as a ranged profession? You betcha! I'm not saying melee stacking is right. I'm saying the ability of a ranged profession to counter a useful melee skill is wrong. Like I said, you want armor break resistance, give snare and root resistance. Balance. Look it up...

Again..talking about balance where there is none. I'm sorry, but Melee/Doc stacking is only slightly more unbalancing than snare/root stacking. Do ranged players get anything remotely close to CoB...anything even remotely close? Not a thing. There...balance, look it up.

There may be more ranged professions since the CU, but there are eqaul numbers of Swordsman/TK/Doc stackers and don't even attempt to deny it.

I won't attempt to deny it, but you clearly make no attempt to support it but to say "It is so!" Nice job. I, however, at least understand the fundamentals of debate and therefore will supply evidence to the contrary:

Let me get right on that. I'll count up all those swordsmen/TKs and be right back with the info for you. I can make a generalization based upon how many I see running around.

Most played professions (from August 19th Friday Feature):

Force Sensitive - Combat , Bounty Hunter, Force Sensitive - Reflexes, Rifleman, Pistoleer, Teras Kasi,Force Sensitive - Senses,Carbineer, Politician, Doctor, Merchant, Combat Medic

Wow...aside from Jedi, one Melee prof in the top 12. You sure showed me!

I don't buy that list for a second. Please elaborate on how that poll was conducted. You really showed me by providing stats with absolutely no information on how they were collected.

Melee needed a beatdown, and I'm stillm waiting to see it.

Glad you made that decision! What other changes have you, in your infinite game developing wisdom, decided the game needs? Well, makingall meleeperma-snared would certainly accomplish your proposed "beat down", wouldn't it?

Yes, it would actually. Melee is not Jedi, so I'd be quite happy. I watched melee stackers run around for far too long...and that upsets game balance. Talk about balance do you? But you don't like to address that issue do you?

And as a Sith, I do quite fine against ranged, so I don't see much of an issue at all. You want melee, go play some fantasy-based crap. IMO, the only melee that should be in Star Wars is Jedi.

Again, you do fine NOW against ranged. Wait until you can't get within 35m to apply any of your awesome powers and see how you fare....And, for the record, this post is in the Jedi forums and my sig pretty much makes it clear I am a Jedi, so the end goal of this is to strengthen Jedi. Who exactly are you fighting?

Right now, I'm only fighting you. I fight plenty of BH's...and they all die. And when the new stuff comes out...I'll figure out how to make them die again.

Think fighting a MBH/MCM/Pistols xxx3 stinks now? Just wait....

I much prefer these types to the melee stacking nonsense

Takes a lot to call out the flames in me, but you pulled it off.

And takes a lot to get me to want tohumiliate someone by pointing out there logical flaws....but you seem to have pulled that off.

Humiliate me? Try again, child. I made a retort to your ludicrous proposition with flames because that, in my opinion, is what it warranted. You've got nothing.

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-Aaron'shin De'wintres
"There is no art more beautiful and diverse than the art of death."

The fire, it knows me
I can walk through the blaze without a mark
Forever it owes me
The life I lost in the dark

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Terraval wrote:

How very selfish of you. You want jedi power range INCREASED? Am I the only one here thinking of the lowly pistoleer? Mpistol BH can't kite jedi for peanuts as it is and you want to be able to kite US? We're the ones with the flipping guns here. Oh, and as for your comment about realism, when you said about people running full pelt with guns being a load of crap, what about the folk who run around in this game at unmitigated speed with a friggin 100 pound hammer. And i get a snare for using my"featherweight"...

/putonflameretardantclothes

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/draws lightsaber and stands firmly by the Pistoleer.

Don't worry...this Sith is not like the OP.

-Aaron'shin De'wintres
"There is no art more beautiful and diverse than the art of death."

The fire, it knows me
I can walk through the blaze without a mark
Forever it owes me
The life I lost in the dark

Now all I have to do is shoot him in the back while he defends me and BAM... 225k in the bank

Thanks for the support

oh and yeah ranged profs do have something close to cob...its in the bh investigation tree...something called duelest stance

yeah may not be exactly the same...but still gives 500 to def...and it gives a return fire ability which i like

ign Nathalos Long-shot

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nathalos wrote:

oh and yeah ranged profs do have something close to cob...its in the bh investigation tree...something called duelest stance

yeah may not be exactly the same...but still gives 500 to def...and it gives a return fire ability which i like

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500 to defense?

It's 250, mate.

And what about Ranged profs that don't want to pick up BH. Unarmed combat, which has CoB is far less taxing on Skill Points. Again, more balance.... /eyeroll

-Aaron'shin De'wintres
"There is no art more beautiful and diverse than the art of death."

The fire, it knows me
I can walk through the blaze without a mark
Forever it owes me
The life I lost in the dark

ok i stand corrected on the amount of def....yeah its 250...but still usefull as hell....and also...ranged profs with the ranged arm can start pounding on melee way before the melee can get in range, pistoleer can put on the stopping shot with a rifle at 80 m if they have the 2 ranged arms which are easy to get and then pound on them, but melee has to get within 5m to use most of their attacks that do good dmg, and unarmed...lol they may not take much dmg, but they dont dish it out much...or at all...not any good attacks in tk imo, swordsman get all the nice ones, oh but wait, sac on a good melee weapon is normally over 80, and at the spd they attack at it doesnt take long to run out of action, where my pistol on my bh i can get to a 46 sac, can fire all day long and never run out of action....so while the melee is waiting for his action to get up the ranged is just hitting away and using snares and roots to slow down the melee person to keep them out of 5m range.

ign Nathalos Long-shot

Eh...most melee fighters can close on ranged ones. I was always (and still am) able to. My swordsmen friends, I notice suffer from high action costs, but once they have spice and foods in them, this goes away, so I don't see SAC being that much of an issue unless you're going unbuffed, in which case I concende your point.

-Aaron'shin De'wintres
"There is no art more beautiful and diverse than the art of death."

The fire, it knows me
I can walk through the blaze without a mark
Forever it owes me
The life I lost in the dark

buffs dont last 3 hrs anymore so its hard to fight every fight with buffs....most times dotn even need food on my bh pistoleer and i can fight better then my swordsman/pikeman, and im using as low a sac hammer as i can find.

ign Nathalos Long-shot

-Aaron'shin De'wintres
"There is no art more beautiful and diverse than the art of death."

The fire, it knows me
I can walk through the blaze without a mark
Forever it owes me
The life I lost in the dark

So far as I can tell, the general "gist" of your post (boiling it down to its most basic logical conclusions) is that you want melee players to be able to run through metaphorical hailstorms of gunfire, swinging their "superior" sword like in a Dragonlance novel, and cut the heads off "pitiful" ranged players?

Sorry, but I can't agree with this sentiment at all. The notion of becoming "pinned down" by suppressive fire from an automatic weapon is easily intuited by most individuals, and it's an extremely realistic game mechanic to incorporate. Melee combatants should be placed in a situation where they are required to be intelligent in order to dominate over someone who posesses an equally lethal weapon that is capable of engaging at range. Melee dominance should be based upon luring gun fighters into tight quarters, intelligent use of terrain/ cover and powers such as Force Cloak to get a drop on someone. If you honestly want me to support the belief that a swordsman should be able to charge across a flat field sixty some-odd meters toward a Rifleman in a fortified position and not get shot down, sorry, but I'm not on the same wavelength.

Your retort about "realism" to the first response you got was fairly misleading as well. While I will agree that Star Wars is a "fantastical" version of a Science Fiction genre, the most basic levels of it are rooted in a fairly mundane "reality." The Force permeates all existence, but aside from those "rare" individuals (it sickens me to type that, given that Jedi outnumber non-Jedi in this game) who can tap into its powers, everyone is constricted by "real wold" physics or near-physics. I firmly believe that archaic weaponry has absolutely no place on a modernized battlefield, and with the noted exception of Jedi / Lightsabers, I would be happier seeing Melee stricken from the game entirely.

On the subject of Jedi, you're missing out on one very simple point: your character is not Yoda. Your character is not Anakin Skywalker, much as your posting name tries to claim otherwise. Even within the spectrum of "supernaturally potent" warriors, the heroes from the movie stand rank and file above the rest by leaps and bounds, and that was in a time when there was still a Jedi Council around to actually instruct new recruits. In the present day incarnation of Star Wars (as per the game), there is no Jedi Council. There is no Master / Padawan relationship, in truth.

I have said this before and I'll say it again: I honestly believe that a Novice Dancer should be able to kill a full-templated Jedi in this game.

And before you freak out over that controversial statement, back up a minute. The world of Jedi is pretty much dog-eat-dog right now. This is further compounded by the fact that Jedi are much easier to get since the CU, and the fact that in order for most people to COMPETE in PVP, they have to have a Jedi character. The logical death spiral of "must compete, Jedi kill me, must become Jedi" is easy to understand.

So how do you rectify this problem? Make Jedi, at their basest level, an undesirable class to play. Alternatively, implement a new FRS system that promotes competition among Jedi for truly remarkable ones to stand out above the rest. If you become a Jedi Knight, sure ... let them be about as powerful as they are now. If you become a Jedi Master (of which there should be only ONE per Light / Dark faction on a SERVER at a time), you can take out an entire group of PVPers. Only the STRONG rise to the top, and the chaff is thus separated from the wheat. That in and of itself technically empowers Jedi while shifting the bulk balance of the game's combat mechanics back toward non-Jedi professions, where it should be.

As for checks and balances against these "ungodly" FRS characters ... easy. In addition to the fact that everyone on the other faction wants to tear you down to get their own FRS up, implement a system of duels and honorable challenges within factions that must be answered within a certain time. Competition is the root of progress, and currently all we have is stasis.

/endrant on Jedi

You go on to attack your first critic about the fact that it's "unrealistic" to see gunmen running all over the battlefield shooting things.

I agree.

However, if you want to play both ends of that argument fairly, a rooted gunman from a well-chosen firing position should be able to kill anything that comes near him within two to three bursts. The menace of overpowered Swordsman / Doctor / CoB-TKer maniac would be cut down in seconds, if we want to shift to hard realism.

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You go on to attack his credibility on the basis of "most popular professions," however you fail to realize that most non-direct combat professions are now contingent upon a pairing with a ranged profession. Doctors, Smugglers, Commandos, Combat Medics, Rangers, Squad Leaders ... all of these professions are now extensions of Elite Ranged Professions, and as a result of this relationship they are highly encouraged to take on an elite ranged profession to augment their other support profession. The numbers, in short, are artificially inflated. If you want to deny that PVP on most servers is dominated by Swordsman/Doc/CoB-TKer's and Jedi, then I think you're delusional. There is more to PVP than BH / Jedi, and you're missing a really big part of it.

The irony of this situation is that I know Aaron'shin, and he plays a Jedi. He is one of you, yet even he sees the fact that there is a lack of prudence in this suggestion. While I personally prefer not to resort to ad hominems as much as possible, I honestly agree with him fully. It's not like he's some fanatical "kill all the Jedi" bounty hunter posting on your boards.

. o O ( Larrendias du'Noctile-et'Senex ) O o .
C/OIC: 533rd IMCAGTF (SOC) // X/OIC: SECTION 8
[ Imperial Operator ] // [ Sunrunner Galaxy ]

After reading a few of these posts, I'm under the impression that none of the people who replied here are aware of the upcoming snare/debuffchanges.... thats what the OP is trying to adress. Please direct yourself to the other 50 or so posts on the subject so you can get an idea on exactly how broken ALL melee classes are going to be if these changes go live.

Emrick Starstrider - Rebel Maverick - Advanced X-Wing
Modo Tomaw - Ithorian of Many Trades - Nova Courier
Wanderhome

-Aaron'shin De'wintres
"There is no art more beautiful and diverse than the art of death."

The fire, it knows me
I can walk through the blaze without a mark
Forever it owes me
The life I lost in the dark