Jedi Archive
Thread: Proposal: New Jedi/melee enhancements! To bring back balance to the Force....
HarlequinMK19 wrote:
EAB wrote:
After reading a few of these posts, I'm under the impression that none of the people who replied here are aware of the upcoming snare/debuffchanges.... thats what the OP is trying to adress. Please direct yourself to the other 50 or so posts on the subject so you can get an idea on exactly how broken ALL melee classes are going to be if these changes go live.
I'm plenty aware.
Wait...did you say broken melee classes?
Message Edited by HarlequinMK19 on 10-11-2005 05:04 PM
ObsidianWrath wrote:
EAB wrote:
Well if you are aware, then try not to speak in present tense regarding melee effectiveness. If things proceed as scheduled, there will be no closing the gap, no "clever drawing of the opponent into tight quarters", and nothing for a melee fighting a ranged to do except move at a crawl till they die.
There is a word for speaking in the future tense. It's called "speculation." I'm not trying to flame you, but I honestly don't think that the Devs would implement a system that completely destroys Melee and Jedi. After all, they love Melee and Jedi. Ranged are the unloved children of this game.
To me, this whole situation seems to strike a familiar tune. I see everyone running around claiming the sky is falling, and no real evidence. The only thing that has happened that I can recall in which the community was *solidly* unified in protest was the massive XP nerf that they tried several weeks ago, and it was reversed within ... a day or two?
Trust me, if they makea change to this game that locks everyone without a gun frozen in place with the upcoming expansion, the howls of protest will be even worse than they were with the XP nerf. Even if this were left in play, though, I still think that clever Melee players would be able to get the drop on Ranged professions.
Pronunciation: ‚spe-ky„-ƒl†t
Function: verb
Inflected Form: -lat£ed ; -lat£ing
Etymology: Latin speculatus, past participle of speculari to spy out, examine, from specula watchtower, from specere to look, look at— more at spy
Date: 1599
intransitive senses
1 a : to meditate on or ponder a subject : reflect b : to review something idly or casually and often inconclusively
2 : to assume a business risk in hope of gain; especially : to buy or sell in expectation of profiting from market fluctuations
transitive senses
1 : to take to be true on the basis of insufficient evidence : theorize ²speculated that a virus caused the disease³
2 : to be curious or doubtful about : wonder ²speculates whether it will rain all vacation³
Message Edited by EAB on 10-11-2005 02:37 PM
EAB, I fail to see how your "definitition" clears anything up. It's pretty much what she said it is. So if you're reinforcing her...bravo...you just did.
Well its fairly obvious but if you need clarification:
She said speculation means to speak in the future sense.
Definition of speculation is to ponder a subject.
Not a big deal but pointing out the difference.
If youre reinforcing that you dont read fully before posting... bravo.. you just did.
Good! Someone who gets it!
Yeah, some of my suggestions were controversial. And I knew the range suggestions for Jedi force powers would be flame bait. Fine. Forget them. But people are replying to this post without taking into account the changes being discussed to debuffs. If these changes go into effect, NOTHING will be able to stand up against a MCM/ranged root and snare stacker except another MCM/ranged root and snare stacker. They will snare, root, knockdown or otherwize mezz you, apply debuffs and laugh as your foods and skills become utterly useless. Comparisons to how you fare now against these debuffs are MOOT! You will not get in range of these guys if they know how to play their templates...period.
And while my primary concern is Jedi because I am one and we choose that path and become subject to PvP, I am against any skillset that becomes an "I win" button. All discussions of real life or other melee professions aside, the purpose of the combat upgrade was to bring balance to combat and give each profession defined roles in the system. The simple fact is that with every subsequent change, the game fails miserably in this regard to the point where soon everyone will have some slight variation on the same template if they want to compete. This change will start to eliminate survivability of EVERY melee profession, Jedi included. For some people, that is apparently a welcome thing. For me, it is not. Not that I want this to be WoW, but SOE put melee in the game and it ought to have a role in PvP, PvE, GCW or whatever. Otherwise, just take it out of the game. But don't give skills like armor break that are supposed to help level the playing field with ranged and then take it away by introducing an armor system that makes it useless. That's poor design. And don't give debuffs and movement limiters that can be reapplied at will with no counter and little cooldown. Again, poor design. Otherwise, you might as well call it a day for Fencers, Swordsmen, TKM, and Jedi.
And one thing is for certain. Bounty Hunters -- who got their changes to show only marks online on the terminals, to get rid of TEF'd Jedi running into houses, and who are trying to eliminate even the possibility of an un-TEF'd Jedi going into a house will be even more frustrated if the debuff changes go live. Kiss your player bounties goodbye -- everyone will be running the second that blue dot appears. Or at least they will the second time after they get their butt handed to them
EAB wrote:
Main Entry: spec£u£late
Pronunciation: ‚spe-ky„-ƒl†t
Function: verb
Inflected Form: -lat£ed ; -lat£ing
Etymology: Latin speculatus, past participle of speculari to spy out, examine, from specula watchtower, from specere to look, look at— more at spy
Date: 1599
intransitive senses
1 a : to meditate on or ponder a subject : reflect b : to review something idly or casually and often inconclusively
2 : to assume a business risk in hope of gain; especially : to buy or sell in expectation of profiting from market fluctuations
transitive senses
1 : to take to be true on the basis of insufficient evidence : theorize ²speculated that a virus caused the disease³
2 : to be curious or doubtful about : wonder ²speculates whether it will rain all vacation³
Just thought I'd clear up the definition of the word for you.
And trust me, the devs WOULD make a change that destroys one or more proffession, theyve proven this time after time in the past.
Combine lack of testing with disregard to community feedback with the "nuke" style adjustments usually being made (as opposed to minor tweaking).
Im all for giving melee a harder time against ranged, Ive been saying this since Ive been playing the game. But theres a difference between giving one an "edge" and rendering one useless to the other.
I will agree with your final statement, IF they follow through this shortsighted change it will be reversed within a week, too many people are going to quit.
Message Edited by EAB on 10-11-200502:37 PM
Oh, dear. The little one wishes to attempt to tangle with the English Major regarding phraseology.
You have much to learn, my young Padawan.
My original statement, verbatim, was that: "there is a word for speaking in the future tense. It's called speculation." In no place will you find the term "definition" within my statement, however that is the counterpoint that is being argued on behalf of the desperate one.
Very well, we will clarify the intricacies of modern language for those who lack the ability to properly decipher such phraseology, or are otherwise so enraged in their impotence at the hands of my counterpoint's validity that they must cling to frivolous sniping.
The word "speculation," as per my statement, is a suitable term for describing one who is constantly speaking in a future tense. Specifically, one who says: "this will happen." "The sky will fall." "The end is nigh." "Wah, wah, Jedi!"
Phrased more eloquently, the simple future tense is any form of English dialect in which one utilizes the form "will" in order to describe something that "will" take place at a point beyond the present. "Will," as most people would come to realize through simple conversation and dialogue, is a statement of relative certainty ... at least when utilized by those who would consider themselves intellectuals.
Ergo, if I were to make the assertion: "Tomorrow, the sun will rise," I am vesting my absolute faith in my statement. I firmly believe with the utmost certainty that tomorrow, measured by local deviations of time, the sun will indeed rise in the east. I am not saying that the sun "may" rise tomorrow, I am expressing conviction.
Now, then, in Mister Webster's own definition, we find the term point: "1 : to take to be true on the basis of insufficient evidence : theorize ²speculated that a virus caused the disease³" To speculate, which clearly is capable of meaning that "one is taking something to be true on the basis of insufficient evidence," falls well within the bounds of rationality. The word "will" clearly connotates future tense, as it is one of only two forms of expressing such. We have already established that a statement that something "will" transpire is to assume relative certainty.
Later in my post, to substantiate the basis of my claims and rule it impossible that I am attempting to "waffle" in my description, I stated: "I see everyone running around claiming the sky is falling, and no real evidence." Clearly my inclusion of this point is directed emphasis. Within this statement, you will find a very funny word: "evidence." If you look back to Mister Webster's definition that I have cited, you will also find that the words "insufficient evidence" crop up.
My assertion is clear. I have stated that utilizing future tense, especially in this situation, can be described as speculation. I have further proven using my opponent's own definition that speculation can mean taking one thing to be true on the basis of insufficient evidence. Shortly after the contested statement in my post, I emphasized the point that I see everyone running around claiming the sky is falling, with no real evidence. This reads almost verbatim as a term point in Mister Webster's own definition.
Now tell me, little one ... honestly. Was it worth the flame to flail your arms wildly without cause?
You have been beaten, sir.
Now tell me, little one ... honestly. Was it worth the flame to flail your arms wildly without cause?
You have been beaten, sir.
Was it worth your time to try and muster up such a wide array of obscure vocabulary in a vain and futileattempt to make your pitiful self seem superior?
Give it up, you beat no one but yourself.
Lets see if you can read into the definition of that 
EAB wrote:
Was it worth your time to try and muster up such a wide array of obscure vocabulary in a vain and futileattempt to make your pitiful self seem superior?
Give it up, you beat no one but yourself.
Lets see if you can read into the definition of that
My goodness are you still at it? Youre certainly an interesting case.
Sorry, youre not the epitome of communication skill you pride yourself to be, but hey we all have our faults.
Now, you seem to feel youre going to win some big prize if you get in the last word so go all out... but theres no gain for me to look at anymore of the sadness you spew.
Peace out.
Pronunciation: (')ad-'hä-m&-"nem, -n&m
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin, literally, to the person
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
ObsidianWrath wrote:
Now tell me, little one ... honestly. Was it worth the flame to flail your arms wildly without cause?
EAB wrote:
Now, you seem to feel youre going to win some big prize if you get in the last word so go all out... but theres no gain for me to look at anymore of the sadness you spew.
...
But do consider whom was the first one to talk down to whom if youre so concerned with the dynamics of respect.
That's hysterical. It's really funny when the upset kiddies realize they got slammed on some issue, then try to back out of the discussion with a "You can have the last word, I'm better because I'm not talking anymore". Insert attempts at seeming more mature to gain the morale highground.
Which is even more humorous, because you shouldn't have started that first, kid. Picking on people's words when they've made clearly rational comments related to the topic on-hand is really, really, really stupid.
Back on topic, I obviously concur with what Harlequin said in relation to this noob's idea of what jedi should be.