Jedi Archive
Thread: Proof even reg players are think jedi is weaker and reg toons getting stronger.
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Amsterdoominator
Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:43 am
#1
Especially since they the regular players can buy a weapon from the bazaar for 5k or get multiple weapons as gifts from kashyyyk, whereas we need 5 different resources prices at least 100 cpu and on top of that dozens of pearls before we get decent ones.
I have a lightsaber, yippie, I wish I could use my skills with a powerhammer.
RoundWallKing
Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:59 am
#2
YOU GUYS DONT GET IT! Jedi are not the alpa class until the new FRS comes out, untill then were just.....Balanced.
Eleutherios
Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:18 am
#3
You know what's ironic? Before I posted this thread, it was sitting right next to a thread called "I killed ANOTHER BH in one minute!!" 
Huin
Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:21 am
#4
What made jedi weak is our lack of healing. Every 6 seconds with 4 people pounding on you = die really fast.
Phenix1050
Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:54 am
#5
RoundWallKing wrote:
YOU GUYS DONT GET IT! Jedi are not the alpa class until the new FRS comes out, untill then were just.....Balanced.
exactly! I've been trying to tell people this too. A lot of people say "Jedi's are supposed to be 1.5x". This is a misquote of something said during the CURB Alpha forum. The actual line read something along the lines of "we are balancing Jedi Knights to be 1.5x as powerful as a normal non-Jedi template". The operative word in that sentance is KNIGHT. There are no Jedi knights at present time. Thus, there is no Jedi which is supposed to be better than any other template.
Onto more theoretical discussion, I'll try to explain this in terms of politics, a subject I'm well-studied in. Consider power to be the ability to affect other people, be it being able to send them to war, or being able to send them to the cloner in SWG. Now, in politics, the more people that hold the power, the less power each individual can have. An example would be a democracy. Less people = more power for each person, as in a dictatorship. now, in SWG, the same must happen for the game to be fun. Either you must limit the number of people who have power, or you must make each person less powerful.
You can't put a cap on Jedi, really. It would be bad business. BUT, you can put a cap on how many Knights, how many Masters, etc. you can have. Thus, it makes a lot of sense to balance Jedi to normal professions before the FRS and then work on a FRS where everyone has a shot at making Knight. So, I hope you can see that the FRS is the smartest place to put the additional power, which the devs are doing.
ShineKnuckle
Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:03 am
#6
Actually, the original quote was that a full-template jedi padawan would be 1.5x as strong as a non-jedi with a finished combat template. It's not a misquote of anything; it's what was said regarding the level of jedi power that we'd be left with after we were 'adjusted' for the CU.
I don't really care one way or the other, as I don't care what they do with my jedi anymore. My days in this game are probably numbered at this point.
Phenix1050
Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:18 am
#7
I was in the CU Alpha, and I remember them saying that a Knight would be 1.5x. If you disagree, that's okay, there's no longer a way for me to verify my data, since they shut down that forum a while back. But I remember it being worded like that. Regardless, I think that you can see that's the philosophy that they seem to be enacting. If you remove alt accounts from the picture and look at the primary toon (or secondary toon for pre-9 unlockers) you'll see that there are a LOT of Jedi. This number will continue to grow. Eventually, the fact that there are so many Jedi must neccesarily bring the consequence that they are brought into balance. Until you can find a way to restrict the number of people with power, then you must restrict the power itself.
Basically you won't see a 1.5x jedi until the FRS comes out.
ShineKnuckle
Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:27 am
#8
Phenix1050 wrote:
I was in the CU Alpha, and I remember them saying that a Knight would be 1.5x. If you disagree, that's okay, there's no longer a way for me to verify my data, since they shut down that forum a while back. But I remember it being worded like that. Regardless, I think that you can see that's the philosophy that they seem to be enacting. If you remove alt accounts from the picture and look at the primary toon (or secondary toon for pre-9 unlockers) you'll see that there are a LOT of Jedi. This number will continue to grow. Eventually, the fact that there are so many Jedi must neccesarily bring the consequence that they are brought into balance. Until you can find a way to restrict the number of people with power, then you must restrict the power itself.
Basically you won't see a 1.5x jedi until the FRS comes out.
Lots of things changed since the CU alpha.Maybe the number was originally thrown out in the CU alpha (which never actually happened except on paper), but that's not where most people saw it. There was a postduring the CU beta, near to release, that clearly explained that full-template jedi padawans would be balanced to be 1.5x the strength of a full-template non-jedi toon. I'm not making any judgments about whether that's a good solution or not. That's just the way they presented it.
Assuming the FRS ever comes back, I would expect it to provide more than"1.5x" power with substantial time and upkeep involved. Hopefully it won't be so grossly exploitable too.
Phenix1050
Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:31 am
#9
ShineKnuckle wrote:
Assuming the FRS ever comes back, I would expect it to provide more than"1.5x" power with substantial time and upkeep involved. Hopefully it won't be so grossly exploitable too.
The thing with me is that I can see problems once you go past 1.5x. Consider that a level 80 Ranger/Bounty Hunter toon (mine) can solo a level 92 double elite Ancient Krayt. To be 1.5x as powerful, you'd have to be able to solo a level 135 creature (non existant, except for bugged spawns). If you wanted to be 2x, you'd have to be able to solo a level 184 creature. Is that balanced? Or you'd have to kill it much faster. I'm not sure how much faster it would be, but 1.5xseems like a reasonable amount to me.
But I agree, substantial time and upkeep should be involved, and it should NOT be exploitable.
ShineKnuckle
Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:42 am
#10
Phenix1050 wrote:
ShineKnuckle wrote:
Assuming the FRS ever comes back, I would expect it to provide more than"1.5x" power with substantial time and upkeep involved. Hopefully it won't be so grossly exploitable too.
The thing with me is that I can see problems once you go past 1.5x. Consider that a level 80 Ranger/Bounty Hunter toon (mine) can solo a level 92 double elite Ancient Krayt. To be 1.5x as powerful, you'd have to be able to solo a level 135 creature (non existant, except for bugged spawns). If you wanted to be 2x, you'd have to be able to solo a level 184 creature. Is that balanced? Or you'd have to kill it much faster. I'm not sure how much faster it would be, but 1.5xseems like a reasonable amount to me.
But I agree, substantial time and upkeep should be involved, and it should NOT be exploitable.
The "1.5x" number is just a subjective idea of how much value is added to the jedi's skillset by each additional power, so I wouldn't expect a jedi chancellor to kill a level 250 mob without breaking a sweat or whatever. I WOULD expect him to be a juggernaut when compared to your ranger/BH, though; no offense intended.
One way to make a jedi character 1.5x as powerful as another, in my mind, is to simply offer him access to more abilities than non-jedi toons have. This seems to be the path SOE has chosen, because they can't balance jedi any other way. Jedi don't do more damage than swordsmen or tank better than TKAs (in fact, defender is inferior to AB sliced battle armor, but that's a story for another day) but they DO tend to be able to cram more into a template than a non-jedi can. I would expect them to keep up this trend.
I don't really know what I'd pick as a reasonable cutoff point for padawans or for jedi who ascend to the upper tiers of the FRS. There are too many brokenor poorly-designed skills in the Jedi trees for me to make a good argument one way or the other.Non-jedi have become vastly more powerful since the CU and jedi could use some loving... and I say that as both a BH/Pistoleer with a hugely successful private jedi hunting practice (heh) and a full-template jedi.
Don_T_Shoot
Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:45 am
#11
Only a fool would take a lightsaber to a hammer fight these days.
Reahreic
Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:56 am
#13
Phenix1050 wrote:
RoundWallKing wrote:
YOU GUYS DONT GET IT! Jedi are not the alpa class until the new FRS comes out, untill then were just.....Balanced.
exactly! I've been trying to tell people this too. A lot of people say "Jedi's are supposed to be 1.5x". This is a misquote of something said during the CURB Alpha forum. The actual line read something along the lines of "we are balancing Jedi Knights to be 1.5x as powerful as a normal non-Jedi template". The operative word in that sentance is KNIGHT. There are no Jedi knights at present time. Thus, there is no Jedi which is supposed to be better than any other template.
Onto more theoretical discussion, I'll try to explain this in terms of politics, a subject I'm well-studied in. Consider power to be the ability to affect other people, be it being able to send them to war, or being able to send them to the cloner in SWG. Now, in politics, the more people that hold the power, the less power each individual can have. An example would be a democracy. Less people = more power for each person, as in a dictatorship. now, in SWG, the same must happen for the game to be fun. Either you must limit the number of people who have power, or you must make each person less powerful.
You can't put a cap on Jedi, really. It would be bad business. BUT, you can put a cap on how many Knights, how many Masters, etc. you can have. Thus, it makes a lot of sense to balance Jedi to normal professions before the FRS and then work on a FRS where everyone has a shot at making Knight. So, I hope you can see that the FRS is the smartest place to put the additional power, which the devs are doing.
yes and the unofficial word from soe underground grapevine is frs isnt coming back
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