Jedi Archive
Thread: Why don't people understand? It's not meant to be easy.
Page 9 of 9
RamhornSWG
Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:19 pm
#105
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Read the post above
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
TheDarkTrumpet
Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:53 pm
#106
RelixLTD wrote:every online game is a grind in some way or another. It's not posible to make a content driven game that is NON-LINEAR. When ya have a multiplayer environment the only ways to sustain game play is by PVE or PVP. Even a quest based dialogue driven game element eventually becomes a grind as ya go from target to target talking and talking with an occasional battle inbetween.
This part I disagree with just a little bit.
I am a programmer, have been for some time. My feelings for this game is just darn near everything is hardcoded in the game, where the programmers need to write the dialogs. This leads to programmers being the story tellers...this isn't good, since computer science is more a 'logical thinker', more than creative - that's one reason why many thing programming is totally linear most times.
In my opinion, one of the best ways to fix this game is by changing the way the stories are told. For example, each phase of the village has 4 missions for a total of 16 total missions. Because of this, we have guides telling someone exactly where to go, and how to get there. This, also, isn't good.
A better method, instead of requiring the NPC to handle ONE type of mission, made 5-10 different missions per NPC, done by writers or people with high creativity. The coding for these stories should not be client side, but be determined on the server, and sent as needed. Here is such a method in example:
NPC 1 gives missions A, B, C, D, E. Upon arrival, you by chance receive mission C. The server picks a random location, similar to the current setup - but on different planets, and this information is given to the character. Go to location X, Y, Z (for each A,...,E). The user goes to location X,Y, or Z (depends on what the computer gives, but regardless, the destination should be totally random. The user arrives, at say location Z and talks to NPC 2 who have sub missions A1, A2, A3, A4, A5; B1, B2, ...; E5 and gives the user a task to complete in location X1,Y1, or Z1. This can lead to another NPC, which leads to another NPC, and so on.
What does this end up?
Lets assume that each NPC gives 5 beginning choices, and each sub NPC gives 5 more choices. The combinations are almost endless for this formation. All of the 'missions' will eventually end up on forums, but if the tasks are also random, so we don't have a function map from F directly to Y, that it's possible to ahve F map to Z, we will have an almost unguessable combiantion setup here. The problem with this, though, is it requires someone creative, and some fairly good programming to handle it. Basically the server will have to set a random seed, maybe the current time, or a special hash function based on some extremely long math formula, but it's possible. Set the seed, and get the first profession, send it only then to the client, not the entire set. Once the user gets to the next mission set, then another random setup. If there are a few lists for combining these, it should work just fine.
rhaspede
Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:31 pm
#107
Wow DarkTrumpet and Realix, those posts were very thought provoking. Not just someone rehashing the most popular thing stated so far in the thread. Nice to see someone actually willing to put forth a solution rather than just clamor that there's a problem. I like both of your ideas. The GCW should affect the environment we play in, and in fact, it was initially intended to do so. For whatever reason, none of this made it into the live release, but I have faith that the majority of these issues will be addressed in the revamp. I like the idea about having more quests and having them be more abstract as well. Having different options on certain npc missions should affect the outcome of the missions and the standing with that particular faction if it applies.
I like the idea of the Jedi system being completely quest based for the most part, but again, how do you stop people from posting a step by step map of how to complete the quests once enough people figure it out? Even if you make the quests extrememly involved and difficult, powergamers are going to find a way to get through them as quickly and with as little actual interraction as possible. then they're going to tell all their friends how to do it. Besides, like I've said before, leveling up in this game is based around xp, and to completely remove xp from the path to Jedi is a bad move in my opinion. I just think there must be some kind of xp requirements to get Jedi, and I don't think that xp should be easily obtainable. Maybe make the amount of xp required lower, but make it much harder to get?
Does anyone else see the point I'm trying to make here?
SpinningCloud
Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:38 pm
#108
Rhaspede; "Balanced PvP between all combat classes.
I guess I'm one of the few who has faith that the combat revamp will fix this problem."
You must be one of the few left considering I've never heard of a game that actually has succeeded in that lofty goal. Hell, most games can't even figure out which classes are to be CONSIDERED "combat classes". For example is a smuggler a combat class? If so then I'd say there is one HELL of a lot of balancing to be done there! Imagine a Smuggler that could, by virutue of Smuggler skills ONLY...hold his own against a BH.
RelixLTD
Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:47 pm
#109
every online game is a grind in some way or another. It's not posible to make a content driven game that is NON-LINEAR. When ya have a multiplayer environment the only ways to sustain game play is by PVE or PVP. Even a quest based dialogue driven game element eventually becomes a grind as ya go from target to target talking and talking with an occasional battle inbetween.
The PVP system needs lots of work and is the central issue regarding the GCW and combat revamps. The PVE system needs a little variety in the way missions are taken and completed. The outdoor missions as is are fine but need to fluctuate based on the size of the partisipating team.
Regarding PVE: Indoor dungeon type missions should be added much the way the corvette functions with separate playfields for the mission takers. The reason the game is essentially conquered is due to doctor buffs and the ability to do missions in Solo teams. Doc buffs should be reduced to 25% of their strength and be an area effect that is centered around the doctor. They should require just a single use by the doc only and the effect work the same way as Squad Leader benefits work, ie enhance the team members that are near the doctor. Mission payout and difficulty should increase or decrease based on how many players on the mission holders team are actually there fighting it. This should award good pay and experience for players who cooperate and work as a team. It would also enhance the practicallity of professions like Squad Leader and Ranger. This kind of thinking will promote team work and team play as intended for ANY MMORPG.
Regarding PVP: There needs to be armor restrictions based on weapon use. Ranged weapons should allow all types of armor with LOW HAM costs but incur a penelty of slow movement and low mobility. melee weapons should restrict armor to a chest plate and/or helmet or Light armor. This will alow players to have a wide range of clothing and armor options and still be viable. The only thing that will change are tactics. Some ranged players will opt for heavy full sets of armor for the beefed up defence and sacrifice easy get aways and others will choose no armor for mobility and non restriction of terrain navigation.
GCW PVP should and needs content driven tasks and goals. There needs to be control zones that add tactical as well as safety benefits to haveing the area be under occupation by your chosen faction. Players who enter an area not controled by their own faction will be likely to encounter problems like scanning and anbushes by factional NPC's. There also need to be granted GCW ranks that offer unique loot that cant be traded. things that enhance weaponry and cobat ability. special uniforms that grant morale and navigation bonus'. Also there need to be neutral zones that are full pvp regardless of cover overt status if the character enters the area. success in the GCW should garner benefits in the tradition the FRS was intended to bring.
Regarding the FRS and Jedi: Jedi need to be given their own factions. Light side Jedi would have friendly tendiences to rebels and dark side Jedi would have friendly tendiencies to imperials. They could join in battles in neutral zones or be hired as a mercenary in a single occupied area. To make the FRS a success missions for Jedi need to be designed so that members of both factions can each take the same mission at the same time. What that means is a mission for a dark Jedito destroy an NPC or base could be also taken by a light Jedi to save the same targets from destruction. Timers and zoning could be implemented to prevent gank squads and quick "eat and run" tactics. Similar multiplayer missions could also be created.
Conclusion: Most of the mechanics for all these changes already exist. granted, it takes time to code changes but honestly the GCW and combat revamps should have been done first, long before cities, vehicles, Jedi and the final stages of Beta even. The basic PVE and PVE elements in an MMO simply can't be deisgned as a free for all since in a game world that is not linear players need mechanics that motivate confrontation as well as make that confrontation possible to self manifest.
Sadly this post is at the end of a 7 page thread and in all honesty will never be read by many. Perhaps that's a good thing. My ideas are generally radical and make the game difficult for the players, but really, isnt that what we truly want anyway? I mean if i wanted an easy game, I can play solitaire or war: two age old card games. I can even do it online if I want it to be multiplayer.
Message Edited by RelixLTD on 09-07-2004 05:49 PM
Azhnykk
Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:16 pm
#110
Ultimately, the quests set up everything that you do and say much like an RPG should not. I am a writer, so I do not see why it is so difficult to add some real content into one of the most vital quest systems in the game. The quests, aside from the foreverquest grinding, is nothing more than destroy or deliver missions without a terminal. You have no options or alternatives. If that is the case then why not just give us a terminal or quest "to do list"?
The quests should be more broad and fun. You should have decisions to make. You should also maybe have small puzzles and riddles to solve.
It works likethose old Choose Your Own Adventure books. Something like this:
Old man runs up to hysterically.
Old man: Help me! Please help! They are coming for me!
You:
a. Who is coming after you? ....continue to 1-1
b. I do not have time for this.....continue to 1-2
Old man:
1-1. The sith! They want my force crystal! I am not safe. They will kill me! Please hold on to this crystal for me, and bring it to the Village of Aurilla.
You:
a. I will do it for you. ...continue to 3
b. Please, just leave me alone, old man. ...continue to 1-2
1-2. Please?! I beg of you! I need your help!
You:
a. Okay, I will do it for you. ...continue to 3
b. I said no. Please, let me be. ...continue to 4
3. Old man gives you the force crystal.
Old man: Thank you so much. You will be rewarded for your gratitude.
Sith attack and kill old man.
Sith: Where is the crystal? Do you have it?
You:
a. Yes, I have the crystal. ...continue to 5
b. No, I do not have the crystal. ....continue to 6
4. Old man rushes off.
5. Hand it over, now!
You:
a. Give force crystal to Sith.
b. No, you cannot have it.
6.
Azhnykk
Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:21 pm
#111
Continued...
6. I do not believe you. You are a liar! ...continue to 10
Sith attack you.
7. You give Sith the crystal. ... Continue to 9
8. Sith attack you. ...continue to 10
9. Sith: That is a wise decision. Come to our encampment when you have time. We may have some work for you if you are interested.
Sith give you a Waypoint to camp.
10. You kill Sith. Loot Sith to obtain item.
You obtain a datapad with a courier addressed to Jabba the Hutt.
Azhnykk
Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:25 pm
#112
So, in essence, you would being a journey down the path of the Light or Dark side by choosing to help the Sith or the villagers.
The Jabba part is the start for finding the location of the Village of Aurilla. It is harder to get to than the Sith camp because the the village is hidden so that they are safe from their enemies. The Sith quests will show the same effort in tracking later as the Village did early on.
BeerBrewer
Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:22 pm
#113
Bro i love that idea ... Seriously. I wish it would be more interactive if you know what i mean. You know lots of cool quests here and there a little bit of grinding a lot of quests . Sounds good i think we should be able to choose what way we want to go but thats just be great story linethough 
Sseli
Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:54 am
#114
I have heard all of the arguments that jedi should be rare (usually by people who already have jedi) and seen numerous posts that people should accept the fact that they are not going to be jedi and go back to their normal professions. This is bunk. We don't play these games to roleplay the guy who washes Darth Vader's soiled undergarments or some farmer on a remote planet. We play to roleplay the hero whether that be a jedi or whatever else tickles your fancy. I have a serious issue with the customer being told that they cannot play what they want without seriously compromising the fun factor of the game. I would love to just play the game and let the xp come when it may but in a year when I finished my first of 24 boxes and the game no longer exists, I will be left without playing the one thing I started this game to play...jedi.
I think the answer to this problem (and this has been stated many times before but it bears repeating) is that fs should be easier to get but BEING a jedi should be much much harder. You walk into a starport and whip out a lightsaber and an army of ubertroopers should land and gank the heck out of you. Bring back the visibility and make BH's more competitive so they might actually cause a jedi to think about walking around with lightsaber in hand. Make all jedi wearing robes or holding lightsabers overt until 5 minutes after they put the thing away. If I were a jedi, always watching my back adds content to the game all by itself. If you die make the penalties severe...not necessarily death but serious loss of xp. Let people play what they want and deal with the consequences of their choices...don't just decide what I can and cannot play.
I would go back to playing a normal prof and forgetting all about jedi if they would have already finished the combat revamp, but I cannot play what I want and remain competitive in PvP...and now when is that going to be. In my opinion, this is all just an attempt to string people out so that they keep paying to play (why else should there be a limit of one fs slot per phase...I finished my patrols, why can't I help those injured people).
Sseli
Neotrobe
Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:27 pm
#115
Hard and Very TIME Consuming are not the same thing. The current system is nothing but busy work. Not very hard at all you just have to stomach it.
If they want it to be hard make it hard but not purely time consuming
lonelyguy
Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:51 am
#116
rhaspede wrote:
I like these ideas, but isn't most of that stuff in the works already?
yeah right................
dev's day at work
------------------------
''Ok, so whats on the schedule for tomarrow?''
''Uh yeah, tomarrow, we'll all show up around 11 in the morning after sleeping in, we'll take a 2 hour lunch break as soon as we get here, after that we'll have a 5 min meetnig of what we'll do tomarrow, then we'll all go catch a movie or we can go play some golf and after that we'll call it a day''
''Sounds good, lets go''
Page 9 of 9