Jedi Archive
Thread: This statement from soe is almost laughable...
Explain to us what you are talking about.
TheCapn2000 wrote:
you have not played powers with cloak have you???
The big question is viability. For a 4th tier skill is it a viable use under the current force costs? I'd say in most cases no, unless you have an already depleted oppenent. With powers already low damage high force cost attack abilities why would I sink myself in a further force whole by wasting a bunch of force to sneak up on another jedi who can mitigate most of dmg anyway? This is where it doesn't make any sense, because of the force cost it seems attacks must be made fast not slow. You end starport ganking by taking away transfer and channeling abilities while cloaked. You take away PVE exploits by not allowing containers to be looted whil cloaked. Snare makes no sense for cloak it doesn't limit escape it limits attacking. i may need to travel 250 meters (because of radar) to sneak up on my oppent to hit em, I only need 20 meters to escape. once I'm cloaked I have effectively escaped. This design does not effectively and viably create a alpha strike ability.
DocSavag wrote:
Jacella wrote:
KelnMacil wrote:
I have never used cloak to runaway.
I've never initiated combat with it either.
What I do use it for (besides being invisible most of the time), is a counter attack tool. I break off contact during a fight, run and cloak, suffer all the name calling while I am circling around behind them, and break cloak with an attack like KD or choke. It is awesome for that.
AKA Alpha Strike
See now we're talking. That is right..exactly the definition of an alpha strike abilty. The ability to get behind your enemy and attack before he knows you are there. The fact that he initiated comabt initially is irrelevent. You use it offensively to get the jump on him. Thats an alpha strike.
people can already see how it is going to work by applying what Helios has said to their current game playing syle...
Jacella wrote:
TheCapn2000 wrote:
templates that can be "mastered"...the people who have cloak have been playing their "mastered" templates as given to them by the DEVs...now the DEVs say that they are not playing the way they intended and are now going to change that...perhaps the DEVs should actually play what they make...In any event your condescending attitude is not helpful to the people who are going through this change...
I agree that it will change the way it's played, but it should still be viable. This level of change is the same as the AI and FS changes. Do I agree with the AI snare? Yes. Do I agree with the FS nerf? No, but I learned to deal with it.
Let's see how it works before we fly off the handle
No..I felt and feel that it's a complete waste of skillpoints unless you are a Master Powers. 24 points for a single skill. Too expensive and makes your template fragile...as we can see here now.
TheCapn2000 wrote:
I will explain once you answer if you have played with a powers with cloak template....
Jacella wrote:
Helios_SOE wrote:
Force cloak is currently intended to be an alpha strike facilitator, not a "get ouf a fight and regenerate free" card; nor was it intended to let me selectively bypass content. Force Run was designed to be a (more) balanced escape mechanism for Jedi. With the new hiding/stealth system, you can probably count on most any action that would let you get back in the fight for free (after you would have probably lost) to break stealth (including Force Cloak). That includes the abilities you asked about. As a general note, logging out/in whilst having a hiding/stealth buff on you (including cloak), removes that buff. If it looks like the fight is going south I tend to Burst/Force Run now.
Please keep in mind that everything is subject to more play testing and balancing.
how are they going to tell when your cloaking to get an alpha strike during a fight and not just cloaking to get away during a fight?
it seems force cloaking while in combat will not be possible.Message Edited by rebellious_imp on 09-21-2005 11:21 AM
Jacella wrote:
Then explain it again...the snare effect, as I have discussed with my guildmates and friends, won't have that much of an impact on it.
It has been abused more than any other single skill and needs to be adjusted. What I would ask for in exchange is to have powers skills range increased to rifle ranges.
lol, ok fine, I'm lazy too so I'll just repost my response to the dev:
Helios_SOE wrote:
Drazharr wrote:
I would like to know if Force Run is considered a "combat" move by Helios. Specifically, will Force Run 3 be able to mitigate the cloak snare enough to make cloak marginally useful as a first-strike option by non-Defenders.
This is a vital question which really hasn't been definitively answered.
Currently, thehiding/stealth/cloak movement debuffs override any speed buff. Essentially, the rule is "when you are not visible to other players, you will move slower asone of thetradeoffs". Thismeans more intricate strategies will have to be crafted in using these very powerful abilities. Jedi have it easiest in this regard, in that their stealth doesn't currently have a breach bubble that could cause them to be uncovered by moving too close to someone in the way that all the other stealth-moves do(with the exception of BlendIn, which doesn't allow you to move or change posture).
Honestly Helios, your vision for Cloak is fine (alpha strike attack)however you have to understand any legit Alpha strike will require you to use your saber atm. As others have said, you can't seriously expect Jedi to get into a 5m range with their saber as their force drains and the enemy can still move freely. To actually get an "alpha attack" it will require surprise, which means a cloaker has to be at least 250m away from the enemy. If Powers was actually a viable alternative to SAbers, the 32m range of their attacks might actually work in your propoistion. As it stands now, you are balancing the skill without upgrading the profession to actually use it.
Also, if Powers does get a bump in offensive power as so many have suggested, just move Cloak to Master. If it's required to have Master Powers to ever effectively use the first strike, why have the Cloak skill located in a 4th tier box? I realize this is probably beyond the scope of what you are working on but face it, you can't change a skill and turn a blind eye to how viable it will actually be.
Message Edited by WookieOgre on 09-21-2005 01:14 PM
Novock wrote:
The big question is viability. For a 4th tier skill is it a viable use under the current force costs? I'd say in most cases no, unless you have an already depleted oppenent. With powers already low damage high force cost attack abilities why would I sink myself in a further force whole by wasting a bunch of force to sneak up on another jedi who can mitigate most of dmg anyway? This is where it doesn't make any sense, because of the force cost it seems attacks must be made fast not slow. You end starport ganking by taking away transfer and channeling abilities while cloaked. You take away PVE exploits by not allowing containers to be looted whil cloaked. Snare makes no sense for cloak it doesn't limit escape it limits attacking. i may need to travel 250 meters (because of radar) to sneak up on my oppent to hit em, I only need 20 meters to escape. once I'm cloaked I have effectively escaped. This design does not effectively and viably create a alpha strike ability.
DocSavag wrote:
Jacella wrote:
KelnMacil wrote:
I have never used cloak to runaway.
I've never initiated combat with it either.
What I do use it for (besides being invisible most of the time), is a counter attack tool. I break off contact during a fight, run and cloak, suffer all the name calling while I am circling around behind them, and break cloak with an attack like KD or choke. It is awesome for that.
AKA Alpha Strike
See now we're talking. That is right..exactly the definition of an alpha strike abilty. The ability to get behind your enemy and attack before he knows you are there. The fact that he initiated comabt initially is irrelevent. You use it offensively to get the jump on him. Thats an alpha strike.
No, I agree that it doesn't. I think the force cost has to come down for it to be a viable first strike ability. I think the point that is being made by the dev team is that they view it as such instead of the current usage of it.
again I ask for a complete list of each and every skill with the DEV's intended use of it in order to make it clear going forward...In many cases the players dictate how a given skill will be used in battle...I really do not think the DEVs play the game they have invented...
DocSavag wrote:
Novock wrote:
The big question is viability. For a 4th tier skill is it a viable use under the current force costs? I'd say in most cases no, unless you have an already depleted oppenent. With powers already low damage high force cost attack abilities why would I sink myself in a further force whole by wasting a bunch of force to sneak up on another jedi who can mitigate most of dmg anyway? This is where it doesn't make any sense, because of the force cost it seems attacks must be made fast not slow. You end starport ganking by taking away transfer and channeling abilities while cloaked. You take away PVE exploits by not allowing containers to be looted whil cloaked. Snare makes no sense for cloak it doesn't limit escape it limits attacking. i may need to travel 250 meters (because of radar) to sneak up on my oppent to hit em, I only need 20 meters to escape. once I'm cloaked I have effectively escaped. This design does not effectively and viably create a alpha strike ability.
DocSavag wrote:
Jacella wrote:
KelnMacil wrote:
I have never used cloak to runaway.
I've never initiated combat with it either.
What I do use it for (besides being invisible most of the time), is a counter attack tool. I break off contact during a fight, run and cloak, suffer all the name calling while I am circling around behind them, and break cloak with an attack like KD or choke. It is awesome for that.
AKA Alpha Strike
See now we're talking. That is right..exactly the definition of an alpha strike abilty. The ability to get behind your enemy and attack before he knows you are there. The fact that he initiated comabt initially is irrelevent. You use it offensively to get the jump on him. Thats an alpha strike.
No, I agree that it doesn't. I think the force cost has to come down for it to be a viable first strike ability. I think the point that is being made by the dev team is that they view it as such instead of the current usage of it.
rebellious_imp wrote:
Jacella wrote:
KelnMacil wrote:
I have never used cloak to runaway.
I've never initiated combat with it either.
What I do use it for (besides being invisible most of the time), is a counter attack tool. I break off contact during a fight, run and cloak, suffer all the name calling while I am circling around behind them, and break cloak with an attack like KD or choke. It is awesome for that.
AKA Alpha Strike
this is one of the things they want to get rid of.
the fact that we can make a fight halt, was not intended by the devs.
It seems like once we engage in a fight we will not be able to cloak during the fight.
Message Edited by rebellious_imp on 09-21-2005 10:56 AM
Well, the only way to win a fight for a Powers/Enhancer like me is strategy and using trickery and terrain. One of the biggest parts of that is cloak, and another is FR. The overall problem is that I do not have the defensive capabilities, nor the damage capabilities to simply stay and fight, head on, toe to toe with an MLS/MDef, or several combinations of BH. I am one of the ones who has learned to use what little we have and win with it. Now they want to take away what little we have...well this is fine with me, as long as they bring my defensive ability and damage ability up to par with the opponents I will be facing. In the SW universe, the most powerful force users were the ones who used powers, and morep ure forms of the force...not the lightsaber. If you watch the fights in the movies, what gives the saber wielder an advantage is his ability to move quickly and aggressively. The powers user must slow him down and strike when he is open...his strikes being almost instant death they are so strong. As it stands in the game now, the saber user has both maneuverability and damage capability, the Powers user basically no advantages. So currently we must use what inadequate tools we possess to exploit what few weaknesses our opponents have (mainly weaknesses of the player not the character) while covering our own weaknesses.
And, I am quite disgusted at how many people think I am not supposed to save my own life? They get upset if I want to run? I mean, I haven't done so yet, not without coming back for more, but if I want to, that is my right. I am not there to stand still and let them kill me, that's absolutely stupid.
the devs have no vision on what all the classes are supposed to be thats why we get all theese major changes all the time
Once the devs if they ever will be able to get clear ideas on what all the classes are gonna do this game will be oki but dooing this kneejerk
fixing and nerfing all the time allways leads to a new Combat update and a new total change.,..
The MadOne
TheCapn2000 wrote:
again I ask for a complete list of each and every skill with the DEV's intended use of it in order to make it clear going forward...In many cases the players dictate how a given skill will be used in battle...I really do not think the DEVs play the game they have invented...
DocSavag wrote:
Novock wrote:
The big question is viability. For a 4th tier skill is it a viable use under the current force costs? I'd say in most cases no, unless you have an already depleted oppenent. With powers already low damage high force cost attack abilities why would I sink myself in a further force whole by wasting a bunch of force to sneak up on another jedi who can mitigate most of dmg anyway? This is where it doesn't make any sense, because of the force cost it seems attacks must be made fast not slow. You end starport ganking by taking away transfer and channeling abilities while cloaked. You take away PVE exploits by not allowing containers to be looted whil cloaked. Snare makes no sense for cloak it doesn't limit escape it limits attacking. i may need to travel 250 meters (because of radar) to sneak up on my oppent to hit em, I only need 20 meters to escape. once I'm cloaked I have effectively escaped. This design does not effectively and viably create a alpha strike ability.
DocSavag wrote:
Jacella wrote:
KelnMacil wrote:
I have never used cloak to runaway.
I've never initiated combat with it either.
What I do use it for (besides being invisible most of the time), is a counter attack tool. I break off contact during a fight, run and cloak, suffer all the name calling while I am circling around behind them, and break cloak with an attack like KD or choke. It is awesome for that.
AKA Alpha Strike
See now we're talking. That is right..exactly the definition of an alpha strike abilty. The ability to get behind your enemy and attack before he knows you are there. The fact that he initiated comabt initially is irrelevent. You use it offensively to get the jump on him. Thats an alpha strike.
No, I agree that it doesn't. I think the force cost has to come down for it to be a viable first strike ability. I think the point that is being made by the dev team is that they view it as such instead of the current usage of it.
I always wonder why people seem so sure of this when there is evidence everywhere that they are wrong. If you name a dev name that you know I can probably find evidence that they do play the game.
You're right. Players determine ultimately how a skill and won't be used. The issue arises when the intended use of the skill causes it to be given certain abilities that when used differently cause it to be unbalanced in the eyes of the designers of the game.