Jedi Archive
Thread: more jedi ideas from your most hated CL1 :P
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Jacella
Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:27 am
#27
Last night, I was doing some missions in the FS Village with my alt, and in 1 hour of play, I had my BARC destroyed twice. That is 2 vehicle repair kits. I was fired on by NPC's that I was supposed to avoid and not engage. The only other option I had on me was my Naboo Flash Speeder which is too slow to do these patrols with effectively. So, in completing a single mission, some Master Artisan made 600,000 credits.
I have never been ambushed by a BH and not had a bike destroyed. That is the nature of the beast. As a BH, I destroy bikes as a matter of course...sometimes I get 3 of them during the fight.
Jedi do help the economy, both directly and indirectly. BH's need to buy armor because jedi destroy it. Both jedi and bh create need for goods and services.
The real question is:What do crafters do to grow the economy? They make the creds, but how much do they spend?
DarthFettmule
Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:08 pm
#28
[duplicate]
Message Edited by DarthFettmule on 09-13-2005 09:10 AM
DarthFettmule
Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:34 pm
#29
> the jedi never healed any wounds or damage in any movie. luke required a doctor to heal his wounds on
> hoth just as anakin needed a doctor to heal his wounds
Two words: Expanded Universe. And yes, you have Talon Kardde, Mara Jade, Grand Admiral Thrawn and other EU characters
in game. So, jedi heals.
Further:
Moving the goalposts a lot today, are we? You claim jedi is independant from all,
people point out that you are wrong and we get back:
> * Doctor: Jedi still get buffs, and most of us still need wound healing from time to time
>
> the tip rate to docs and dancers is about 10-25% depending on the day. i know this from being both a doc and a dancer.
Moved goalpost: Jedi uses doctors just as everyone else. No independence
> * DE: Umm..I have like 5 droids...not to mention the flight computers etc
>
> no one relies on DE's for anything. thats more of a general problem with the DE profession
Moved goalpost: Jedi uses DE same as everyone else. That no one is really relied upon by anyone (except BH)
is not jedis fault. No more independene from jedi than from anyone else.
> * Dancer/Musician: We get buffs too
>
>again... the low tip rate of these professions makes them less viable than other supporting professions.
> saying that you use them does >not mean you are contributing to the economy...
> you are contributing if you tip dancers/doctors 100% of the time.
Moved goalposts: Once again, jedi uses these professions and are as dependent upon them as any other profession.
The low tiprate and that no prof is really, really dependant upon entertainers has nothingg to do with jedi.
> * Bio-Engineer: We still use stims and BE Clothing
>
> again, this is a profession with a limited resale of items. BE clothing can still be worn when
> broken and after the first sale is hardly ever purchased again. im a tailor... i know.
Moed goalposts: Just as other profs uses BE clothing, and arent dependent upon having BE items, the same
applies to jedi. Jedi is no more independent from BE than any other prof. Wether BE is a wholesale
profession or not ius irrelevant. The claim was that jedi was independent from other profs.
> * Tailor: Most of us wear clothes besides out robes...see above
>
> see above + the most expensive non BE item a tailor sells should not be any more than 10,000 credits.
> your occasional purchase of a 1k sunguard or a 2k jacket does not make a dent in the overall economy.
> Other combat professions regularly need 500k suits of armor and 5 million credit rifles.
Moved goalposts: Just as other profs do not need to buy clothes, but does, so does jedi. No more, or less,
independency tfor jedi than for other profs. Prices of clothing has nothing to do with this.
> * Bounty Hunters: They provide the SEA's that help us...and crystals sometimes
>
> good point, although i think loot is generally over-valued... thats a different discussion
> for a different thread though.
Loot being overpriced or not has nothing to do with independency.
> * Smuggler: Good for Faction Points and Spices
>
>you could just as easyliy AFK faction farm. Spices have a low profit and and dont sell for much.
Moved goalposts: This applies to all professions,m not only jedi.
> * Chefs: We consume MORE foods than most as we are 100% combat
>
> you use the same amount as other combat profs. this is about the only profession that
> every combat prof needs on a day-to-day basis
And this, no more independecy than other profs because you're a jedi.
> * Artisans: We require resources, bikes, and a lot of other things (vehicle repair kits like mad)
>
> not everyone gets their vehicle destroyed as much as you do.
Moved goalposts: Was this about jedi independency or not? This is totally irrelevant. Jedi need items, resources, bikes
and have bikes wrecked as often as non-jedi. Jedi is no more independent than other profs.
> * Combat Medic: For doing high level caves, POI's, missions
>
> everyone needs healers... but some jedi can heal themselves (i know master
> healer sucks and should be revamped)
Moved goalposts: Jedi can heal themselves IF they have healer in their template. So can anyone that picks up novice medic.
And since everyone will need high-lvl healers for hard dungeons. Thus, jedi is not more independent than other profs.
> * Shipwrights: Most of us fly a lot too
>
> i hardly see anyone in space, and, you can play the entire game without ever going into space
> (unless you wanted to go to kashyyk.
Moved goalposts: Wether you see people in space or not, or wether you need to fly or not, is irrelevant.
If jedi want to go to tspace, they go to a SW. If non-jedi want to go to space, they go to a SW. Neither
is more or less independent than the others.
> * Archetects: We use buildings as much as anyone else
>
> nless you mine resources or re-decorate your house constantly your not really contributing to
> the architects business. in order to contribute like other profs do you need to make a purchase
>more than once in your career. as a crafter i have purchased over 40 different harvesters of v
> arious sizes and am looking to purchase another 8. again, this is a general problem with the
> architects wares being one time sales and thats that.
That is true. But guess what. Thats true for most profs. You get a house, you're done. You get your harvesters
as a crafter, you're set. They do not get destroyed unless you have no money for maint, and this is true
for all profs. So whereas jedi is a bit more unrelated to archies, so is most other profs as well. Nothing
jedi specific here.
> * Creature Handlers: Some of us get pets too...even just for fun...and we all need mounts sometimes.
>
> another low value one time purchase.
Irrelevant and moved goalposts: Jedi is as independent of CHs as everyone else.
> * Armorers: We use PSG's
>
>good point
Plus, one could argue that we cause a lot of armour sales (BH PvP) and that Jedi while not using armours,
neither does non-combat profs, but I ain't seeing you complain about Dancers not supporting the AS community.
> * Image Designers: We all like a change
>
> unless you tip them 100% of the time you are not contributing to the overall community.
Irrelevant and moved goalposts: The same is true for every prof.
> * Ranger: Good for hunting krayts
>
> are you seriously saying this? area track is broken... has been for a long time.
This one I dunno about. AS and otheer crafters have use for rangers, but hardly anyone else, and
in this is jedi hardly unique.
> So..as far as I can tell, the only crafter/service professions that don't benefit from us are Weaponsmiths.
>
> weaponsmiths should get screwed by jedi... not arguing that. but overall,
> jedi rely less on other professions than the more mainstream profs.
No. When one ignores the moved goalposts and actually COMPARES jedi with other profs one sees that
jedi does not in fact rely less on other profs than non-jedi.
> hoth just as anakin needed a doctor to heal his wounds
Two words: Expanded Universe. And yes, you have Talon Kardde, Mara Jade, Grand Admiral Thrawn and other EU characters
in game. So, jedi heals.
Further:
Moving the goalposts a lot today, are we? You claim jedi is independant from all,
people point out that you are wrong and we get back:
> * Doctor: Jedi still get buffs, and most of us still need wound healing from time to time
>
> the tip rate to docs and dancers is about 10-25% depending on the day. i know this from being both a doc and a dancer.
Moved goalpost: Jedi uses doctors just as everyone else. No independence
> * DE: Umm..I have like 5 droids...not to mention the flight computers etc
>
> no one relies on DE's for anything. thats more of a general problem with the DE profession
Moved goalpost: Jedi uses DE same as everyone else. That no one is really relied upon by anyone (except BH)
is not jedis fault. No more independene from jedi than from anyone else.
> * Dancer/Musician: We get buffs too
>
>again... the low tip rate of these professions makes them less viable than other supporting professions.
> saying that you use them does >not mean you are contributing to the economy...
> you are contributing if you tip dancers/doctors 100% of the time.
Moved goalposts: Once again, jedi uses these professions and are as dependent upon them as any other profession.
The low tiprate and that no prof is really, really dependant upon entertainers has nothingg to do with jedi.
> * Bio-Engineer: We still use stims and BE Clothing
>
> again, this is a profession with a limited resale of items. BE clothing can still be worn when
> broken and after the first sale is hardly ever purchased again. im a tailor... i know.
Moed goalposts: Just as other profs uses BE clothing, and arent dependent upon having BE items, the same
applies to jedi. Jedi is no more independent from BE than any other prof. Wether BE is a wholesale
profession or not ius irrelevant. The claim was that jedi was independent from other profs.
> * Tailor: Most of us wear clothes besides out robes...see above
>
> see above + the most expensive non BE item a tailor sells should not be any more than 10,000 credits.
> your occasional purchase of a 1k sunguard or a 2k jacket does not make a dent in the overall economy.
> Other combat professions regularly need 500k suits of armor and 5 million credit rifles.
Moved goalposts: Just as other profs do not need to buy clothes, but does, so does jedi. No more, or less,
independency tfor jedi than for other profs. Prices of clothing has nothing to do with this.
> * Bounty Hunters: They provide the SEA's that help us...and crystals sometimes
>
> good point, although i think loot is generally over-valued... thats a different discussion
> for a different thread though.
Loot being overpriced or not has nothing to do with independency.
> * Smuggler: Good for Faction Points and Spices
>
>you could just as easyliy AFK faction farm. Spices have a low profit and and dont sell for much.
Moved goalposts: This applies to all professions,m not only jedi.
> * Chefs: We consume MORE foods than most as we are 100% combat
>
> you use the same amount as other combat profs. this is about the only profession that
> every combat prof needs on a day-to-day basis
And this, no more independecy than other profs because you're a jedi.
> * Artisans: We require resources, bikes, and a lot of other things (vehicle repair kits like mad)
>
> not everyone gets their vehicle destroyed as much as you do.
Moved goalposts: Was this about jedi independency or not? This is totally irrelevant. Jedi need items, resources, bikes
and have bikes wrecked as often as non-jedi. Jedi is no more independent than other profs.
> * Combat Medic: For doing high level caves, POI's, missions
>
> everyone needs healers... but some jedi can heal themselves (i know master
> healer sucks and should be revamped)
Moved goalposts: Jedi can heal themselves IF they have healer in their template. So can anyone that picks up novice medic.
And since everyone will need high-lvl healers for hard dungeons. Thus, jedi is not more independent than other profs.
> * Shipwrights: Most of us fly a lot too
>
> i hardly see anyone in space, and, you can play the entire game without ever going into space
> (unless you wanted to go to kashyyk.
Moved goalposts: Wether you see people in space or not, or wether you need to fly or not, is irrelevant.
If jedi want to go to tspace, they go to a SW. If non-jedi want to go to space, they go to a SW. Neither
is more or less independent than the others.
> * Archetects: We use buildings as much as anyone else
>
> nless you mine resources or re-decorate your house constantly your not really contributing to
> the architects business. in order to contribute like other profs do you need to make a purchase
>more than once in your career. as a crafter i have purchased over 40 different harvesters of v
> arious sizes and am looking to purchase another 8. again, this is a general problem with the
> architects wares being one time sales and thats that.
That is true. But guess what. Thats true for most profs. You get a house, you're done. You get your harvesters
as a crafter, you're set. They do not get destroyed unless you have no money for maint, and this is true
for all profs. So whereas jedi is a bit more unrelated to archies, so is most other profs as well. Nothing
jedi specific here.
> * Creature Handlers: Some of us get pets too...even just for fun...and we all need mounts sometimes.
>
> another low value one time purchase.
Irrelevant and moved goalposts: Jedi is as independent of CHs as everyone else.
> * Armorers: We use PSG's
>
>good point
Plus, one could argue that we cause a lot of armour sales (BH PvP) and that Jedi while not using armours,
neither does non-combat profs, but I ain't seeing you complain about Dancers not supporting the AS community.
> * Image Designers: We all like a change
>
> unless you tip them 100% of the time you are not contributing to the overall community.
Irrelevant and moved goalposts: The same is true for every prof.
> * Ranger: Good for hunting krayts
>
> are you seriously saying this? area track is broken... has been for a long time.
This one I dunno about. AS and otheer crafters have use for rangers, but hardly anyone else, and
in this is jedi hardly unique.
> So..as far as I can tell, the only crafter/service professions that don't benefit from us are Weaponsmiths.
>
> weaponsmiths should get screwed by jedi... not arguing that. but overall,
> jedi rely less on other professions than the more mainstream profs.
No. When one ignores the moved goalposts and actually COMPARES jedi with other profs one sees that
jedi does not in fact rely less on other profs than non-jedi.
DarthFettmule
Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:26 pm
#30
Words from your post:
> but overall,jedi rely less on other professions than the more mainstream profs.
I.E, your argument was that Jedi relies less on other profs than the "More mainstream profs".
Most common profs where listed and examples shown that in most, if not all, cases Jedi relies
just as much on those profs than do any othe prof in the game.
You go on and on about how "in general" these professions are not relied on, and draw the conclusion
I quoted above:
> but overall,jedi rely less on other professions than the more mainstream profs.
SO you hav eindeed in every case moved your goalposts. From "jedi does not rely on this prof"
to "no one really relies on these profs" while maintining your conclusion.
So, yes, Jedi IS dependent upon other profs. Yes, Jedi DO put credits into circulation and
supports the economy, just as any person that earns creds and put them into circulation by
buying goods.
> but overall,jedi rely less on other professions than the more mainstream profs.
I.E, your argument was that Jedi relies less on other profs than the "More mainstream profs".
Most common profs where listed and examples shown that in most, if not all, cases Jedi relies
just as much on those profs than do any othe prof in the game.
You go on and on about how "in general" these professions are not relied on, and draw the conclusion
I quoted above:
> but overall,jedi rely less on other professions than the more mainstream profs.
SO you hav eindeed in every case moved your goalposts. From "jedi does not rely on this prof"
to "no one really relies on these profs" while maintining your conclusion.
So, yes, Jedi IS dependent upon other profs. Yes, Jedi DO put credits into circulation and
supports the economy, just as any person that earns creds and put them into circulation by
buying goods.
DarthFettmule
Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:23 pm
#31
>>>* Doctor: Jedi still get buffs, and most of us still need wound healing from time to time
>>>
>>>the tip rate to docs and dancers is about 10-25% depending on the day. i know this from being both a doc and a dancer.
>>Moved goalpost: Jedi uses doctors just as everyone else. No independence
>if you dont tip your doctor/entertainer... your not really contributing to the profession are you...
If you (general you) need to use a prof (docs to get rid of wounds) then you are dependent on that prof. Period.
> once again a general issue that is >not jedi specific
So why do you bring up a specific issue when dealing with wether jedi relies on other profs or not?
>>>* DE: Umm..I have like 5 droids...not to mention the flight computers etc
>>>
>>>no one relies on DE's for anything. thats more of a general problem with the DE profession
>>Moved goalpost: Jedi uses DE same as everyone else. That no one is really relied upon by anyone (except BH)
>>is not jedis fault. No more independene from jedi than from anyone else.
>not moving the goal post... i was stating the fact that no one has a reliance on droid engineers.
> it is a general problem that is a seperate post and topic.
So why do you bring up a specific issue when dealing with wether jedi relies on other profs or not?
> were here to discuss whether or not jedi rely on professions like other professions do.
Yes. And ample of examples where provided to show you that jedi need to use other profs. You try to
counter with ... generalities? If Person A is as much reliant on thing B as person C, then person C
and person A are BOTH as reliant upon thing B, even if that reliance in BOTH cases are 0.
> Can a jedi who does >not see a crafter actually be successful? i contend that they can (it will be far
> harder granted) but it could be done.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda.
Yah, I have a BH/Pistoleer alt on one server. I have NEVER used entertainers, armour, food, archies, de, etc, etc
Apart for a WS I picked up some gins from time to time I am more or less 100% independant. It can be done, soes that
mean that everyone does it and that no reliance exist at all? No. Similar with jedi. You COULD do most things alone
without reliance upon anyone for anything, but it'd be a lot harder. Unescessarily hard.
>>>>* Dancer/Musician: We get buffs too
>>>
>>>again... the low tip rate of these professions makes them less viable than other supporting professions.
>>>saying that you use them does >not mean you are contributing to the economy...
>>>you are contributing if you tip dancers/doctors 100% of the time.
>>Moved goalposts: Once again, jedi uses these professions and are as dependent upon them as any other profession.
>>The low tiprate and that no prof is really, really dependant upon entertainers has nothingg to do with jedi.
>didnt move the goal posts as you put it...
Yes you did. This was about wether jedi relied upon other proifs or not. Jedi relies upon dancers/musician
exactly as much as every other profession out there, hence, jedi is no more, or less, reliant upon ents than
any other profs. To then harp on abut it being a "general problem" does not alter this fact, and it IS
moving the goalposts.
> stating the fact that unless you personally tip each A
> TK entertainer each and every time you use them you are not really contributing.
This was not about "contributing" it was about reliance. The reliance is the same for Jedi as other profs.
Anothe rmoved goalpost. (And for the record I tip all entertainers I utilize, 10k for AFKers, 20k for ATKers,
50-100k for the ATKers that interact in a memorable way).
> i also stated this is a global issue that is not jedi specific.
Which is why it is a moved goalpost. Is jedi less reliant upon ents than other profs. No. They're not. That
other profs aren't really dependent on ents either ihas nothing to do with jedi, and your point is refuted in
this instance-
>>>>* Bio-Engineer: We still use stims and BE Clothing
>
>>>again, this is a profession with a limited resale of items. BE clothing can still be worn when
>>>broken and after the first sale is hardly ever purchased again. im a tailor... i know.
>>Moved goalposts: Just as other profs uses BE clothing, and arent dependent upon having BE items, the same
>>applies to jedi. Jedi is no more independent from BE than any other prof. Wether BE is a wholesale
>> profession or not ius irrelevant. The claim was that jedi was independent from other profs.
> jedi should be for the most part independent.
So now they -SHOULD- be independent?
> they need a higher reliance on doctors (remove wound healing ability...
Uhm, no. Jedi that can heal wounds ahve specifically weakened their template in other areas,
and used the experience and skillpoints specifically to heal wounds. Few jedi have wound heal,
thus most jedi uses docs for wound heals.
> i really dont care what book it is in...
Well, tough cookies. Play another game then. I am not all too fond of EU either, but EU is what this game is based
on, and in EU jedi heals.
> doctor's are a profession specifically designed for that purpose and no other.
Fore Healer is a profession sp3ecifically designed for that purpose and no other.
> they should be the only one's who can heal wounds.
So you want to further nkill healer as a va lid prof to have in your template as jedi?
> jedi absolutely should be able to heal damage just as well as doc or CM)
a Master Healer should heal as well, or almost as well, as a full dco or cm.
>>> * Tailor: Most of us wear clothes besides out robes...see above
>>>
>>see above + the most expensive non BE item a tailor sells should not be any more than 10,000 credits.
>>your occasional purchase of a 1k sunguard or a 2k jacket does not make a dent in the overall economy.
>>Other combat professions regularly need 500k suits of armor and 5 million credit rifles.
>>Moved goalposts: Just as other profs do not need to buy clothes, but does, so does jedi. No more, or less,
>>independency tfor jedi than for other profs. Prices of clothing has nothing to do with this.
>using a tailor once in a blue moon is not a reliance
*sigh* Am I talking to a wall here? No, combart profs does not NEED 500k armour suite, or 5Mill rifles. You can get by
without armour, and with 50k rifles. Can and want to is two different things. Further, it does not matter if jedi is
not reliant upon tailers IF NO OTHER PROF IS EITHER. This means that Jedi AND OTHER PROFS ARE EQUALLY (UN)RELIANT UPON
TAILORS. This -refutes- your contention that jedi is less reliant thna other profs in this instance as well.
>>>* Bounty Hunters: They provide the SEA's that help us...and crystals sometimes
>>>
>>>good point, although i think loot is generally over-valued... thats a different discussion
>>>for a different thread though.
>> Loot being overpriced or not has nothing to do with independency.
>what? i ceded the point... what was posted about bounty hunters is a good point of arguing that jedi are reliant.
It's an irrelevant red herring.
> value certainly doesnt have anything to do with it... but
>why are you accusing me of being wishy washy for
> going off topic for a line?
Look up "red herring".
>>>>* Smuggler: Good for Faction Points and Spices
>>>
>>>you could just as easyliy AFK faction farm. Spices have a low profit and and dont sell for much.
>>Moved goalposts: This applies to all professions,m not only jedi.
> but if you can farm the faction your not really reliant are you?
AND NEITHER IS OTHER COMBAT PROFS! if As reliance upon B is none, and Cs reliance upon B is none, then
both A and C are EQUALLY reliant upon B. Thus jedi is no more, and no less, dependant than other profs. Thus
your claim of "jedi being less reliant than other profs" takes another crumbling blow. Moving of goalposts does not
help your conclusion in this case either.
>>>>* Chefs: We consume MORE foods than most as we are 100% combat
>>>
>>>you use the same amount as other combat profs. this is about the only profession that
>>>every combat prof needs on a day-to-day basis
>>And this, no more independecy than other profs because you're a jedi.
>i never argued that jedi should have more reliance on chef.
You argued that jedi was less reliant than on other profs than non-jedi. I list with many examples refuting these
points were produced. You proceeds with trying to salvage your hypothesis by moving goalposts.
> everyone uses chef an equal amount... i never stated differently.
And thus, jedi is no more, and no less, reliant upon chefs than other profs, moving goalposts aside.
>>>>* Artisans: We require resources, bikes, and a lot of other things (vehicle repair kits like mad)
>>>
>>>not everyone gets their vehicle destroyed as much as you do.
>> Moved goalposts: Was this about jedi independency or not? This is totally irrelevant. Jedi need items, resources, bikes
>> and have bikes wrecked as often as non-jedi. Jedi is no more independent than other profs.
> i have a combat alt...
I have jedi+pure crafter, bh/pistoleer, pure entertainer. 3 galaxies. And?
> i have gotten my vehicle disabled once in 2 months of play.
And? Irrelevant. I have not had a bike blown up in a long time either
> one vehicle every 2 months is not a dependance.
Oh for frells sake! Need I repeat? if As reliance upon B is none, and Cs reliance upon B is none, then
both A and C are EQUALLY reliant upon B. Thus jedi is no more, and no less, dependant than other profs. Thus
your claim of "jedi being less reliant than other profs" takes another crumbling blow.
See. Jedi is not very dependant upon artisant, but the exact same is true for other profs. They are EQUALLY
dependent/independent of artisans.
> if jedi do not have the ability to get their own resources..... THEY SHOULD!
We do. Now adays we get lots. same as everyone else. We can buy harvesters, same as everyone else, and place them.
(finding the spot to place thm is another matter). We can own and place houses, furnish them, and this is just as
egular customers amongst Archies as other non-crafters.
>>>>* Shipwrights: Most of us fly a lot too
>>>
>>>i hardly see anyone in space, and, you can play the entire game without ever going into space
>>>(unless you wanted to go to kashyyk.
>>Moved goalposts: Wether you see people in space or not, or wether you need to fly or not, is irrelevant.
>>If jedi want to go to tspace, they go to a SW. If non-jedi want to go to space, they go to a SW. Neither
>> is more or less independent than the others.
> use is not a dependance...
Yes it is. If you want to go into space as Jedi you need to take the same steps as non-jedi. Thus jedi and non-jedi is
equally dependent on SWs. Sure, a jedi can get a quest ship, but so can non-jedi. Sure, a jedi can get all their own
space loot and slowly work their way yup to a decently equipped ship, but so can non-jedi.
> if you want to be another combat prof you MUST see a crafter at some point.
For weapon, yes. Thats the ONLY place you absolutely HAVE to go as normal combatant. Armour, usefull, but not nescessary.
Foods, useful, but not nescessary. Stims, useful, but not nescessary, etc,etc, etc.
> jedi use crafter's by choice. you want the food, vehicle, or stim... you dont need it
Neither do anyone else. Thus jedi is as reliant upon these profs as other profs are.
>>>>* Archetects: We use buildings as much as anyone else
>>>
>>>nless you mine resources or re-decorate your house constantly your not really contributing to
>>>the architects business. in order to contribute like other profs do you need to make a purchase
>>>more than once in your career. as a crafter i have purchased over 40 different harvesters of v
>>>arious sizes and am looking to purchase another 8. again, this is a general problem with the
>>>architects wares being one time sales and thats that.
>> That is true. But guess what. Thats true for most profs. You get a house, you're done. You get your harvesters
>> as a crafter, you're set. They do not get destroyed unless you have no money for maint, and this is true
>>for all profs. So whereas jedi is a bit more unrelated to archies, so is most other profs as well. Nothing
>>jedi specific here.
> the point made is that the occasional purchase is not being reliant.
And the point is that JEDI IS AS RELIANT UPON ARCHIES AS IS NON-JEDI THUS YOUR POINT ABOUT JEDI BEING LESS
RELIANT THAN NON-JEDI IS REFUTED IN THIS INSTANCE AS WELL. No one -needs- a house.
> it is using the prof. a reliance is somthing like: bounty hunters cant be a bounty hunter without a
> droid engineer
Oh yes, they can. Its darn hard, butit can be done. Hint, there was a rtime when there where no BH droids.
You had to track your mark by wits alone.
> OR tailors cant make clothes without the services of a ranger...
Oh yes, they can. As master tailor you can esaily pick up scout, maybe some harvesting foods, a harvester droid,
some basic combat skills and join a group for maximum harvest capability. Sure, not the easiest way to do it, but
possible, and thus they do noit NEED scouts or rangers.
> he point here is that jedi's use crafters in transit while other profs MUST use them.
BS. Some professions may be symbiotic, like chefs-be, or tailor-be, but you can be Mchef+MBE, or
MTailor+MBE. Plus, the point was wether jedi was more or less reliant upon other profs than more
"mainstream profs". That point has been soundly refuted, and you'll realise that when you realise that
A being nonreliant upon B, and C being non-reliant upon B equals A and B being equally (un)reliant
upon B.
>>>
>>>the tip rate to docs and dancers is about 10-25% depending on the day. i know this from being both a doc and a dancer.
>>Moved goalpost: Jedi uses doctors just as everyone else. No independence
>if you dont tip your doctor/entertainer... your not really contributing to the profession are you...
If you (general you) need to use a prof (docs to get rid of wounds) then you are dependent on that prof. Period.
> once again a general issue that is >not jedi specific
So why do you bring up a specific issue when dealing with wether jedi relies on other profs or not?
>>>* DE: Umm..I have like 5 droids...not to mention the flight computers etc
>>>
>>>no one relies on DE's for anything. thats more of a general problem with the DE profession
>>Moved goalpost: Jedi uses DE same as everyone else. That no one is really relied upon by anyone (except BH)
>>is not jedis fault. No more independene from jedi than from anyone else.
>not moving the goal post... i was stating the fact that no one has a reliance on droid engineers.
> it is a general problem that is a seperate post and topic.
So why do you bring up a specific issue when dealing with wether jedi relies on other profs or not?
> were here to discuss whether or not jedi rely on professions like other professions do.
Yes. And ample of examples where provided to show you that jedi need to use other profs. You try to
counter with ... generalities? If Person A is as much reliant on thing B as person C, then person C
and person A are BOTH as reliant upon thing B, even if that reliance in BOTH cases are 0.
> Can a jedi who does >not see a crafter actually be successful? i contend that they can (it will be far
> harder granted) but it could be done.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda.
Yah, I have a BH/Pistoleer alt on one server. I have NEVER used entertainers, armour, food, archies, de, etc, etc
Apart for a WS I picked up some gins from time to time I am more or less 100% independant. It can be done, soes that
mean that everyone does it and that no reliance exist at all? No. Similar with jedi. You COULD do most things alone
without reliance upon anyone for anything, but it'd be a lot harder. Unescessarily hard.
>>>>* Dancer/Musician: We get buffs too
>>>
>>>again... the low tip rate of these professions makes them less viable than other supporting professions.
>>>saying that you use them does >not mean you are contributing to the economy...
>>>you are contributing if you tip dancers/doctors 100% of the time.
>>Moved goalposts: Once again, jedi uses these professions and are as dependent upon them as any other profession.
>>The low tiprate and that no prof is really, really dependant upon entertainers has nothingg to do with jedi.
>didnt move the goal posts as you put it...
Yes you did. This was about wether jedi relied upon other proifs or not. Jedi relies upon dancers/musician
exactly as much as every other profession out there, hence, jedi is no more, or less, reliant upon ents than
any other profs. To then harp on abut it being a "general problem" does not alter this fact, and it IS
moving the goalposts.
> stating the fact that unless you personally tip each A
> TK entertainer each and every time you use them you are not really contributing.
This was not about "contributing" it was about reliance. The reliance is the same for Jedi as other profs.
Anothe rmoved goalpost. (And for the record I tip all entertainers I utilize, 10k for AFKers, 20k for ATKers,
50-100k for the ATKers that interact in a memorable way).
> i also stated this is a global issue that is not jedi specific.
Which is why it is a moved goalpost. Is jedi less reliant upon ents than other profs. No. They're not. That
other profs aren't really dependent on ents either ihas nothing to do with jedi, and your point is refuted in
this instance-
>>>>* Bio-Engineer: We still use stims and BE Clothing
>
>>>again, this is a profession with a limited resale of items. BE clothing can still be worn when
>>>broken and after the first sale is hardly ever purchased again. im a tailor... i know.
>>Moved goalposts: Just as other profs uses BE clothing, and arent dependent upon having BE items, the same
>>applies to jedi. Jedi is no more independent from BE than any other prof. Wether BE is a wholesale
>> profession or not ius irrelevant. The claim was that jedi was independent from other profs.
> jedi should be for the most part independent.
So now they -SHOULD- be independent?
> they need a higher reliance on doctors (remove wound healing ability...
Uhm, no. Jedi that can heal wounds ahve specifically weakened their template in other areas,
and used the experience and skillpoints specifically to heal wounds. Few jedi have wound heal,
thus most jedi uses docs for wound heals.
> i really dont care what book it is in...
Well, tough cookies. Play another game then. I am not all too fond of EU either, but EU is what this game is based
on, and in EU jedi heals.
> doctor's are a profession specifically designed for that purpose and no other.
Fore Healer is a profession sp3ecifically designed for that purpose and no other.
> they should be the only one's who can heal wounds.
So you want to further nkill healer as a va lid prof to have in your template as jedi?
> jedi absolutely should be able to heal damage just as well as doc or CM)
a Master Healer should heal as well, or almost as well, as a full dco or cm.
>>> * Tailor: Most of us wear clothes besides out robes...see above
>>>
>>see above + the most expensive non BE item a tailor sells should not be any more than 10,000 credits.
>>your occasional purchase of a 1k sunguard or a 2k jacket does not make a dent in the overall economy.
>>Other combat professions regularly need 500k suits of armor and 5 million credit rifles.
>>Moved goalposts: Just as other profs do not need to buy clothes, but does, so does jedi. No more, or less,
>>independency tfor jedi than for other profs. Prices of clothing has nothing to do with this.
>using a tailor once in a blue moon is not a reliance
*sigh* Am I talking to a wall here? No, combart profs does not NEED 500k armour suite, or 5Mill rifles. You can get by
without armour, and with 50k rifles. Can and want to is two different things. Further, it does not matter if jedi is
not reliant upon tailers IF NO OTHER PROF IS EITHER. This means that Jedi AND OTHER PROFS ARE EQUALLY (UN)RELIANT UPON
TAILORS. This -refutes- your contention that jedi is less reliant thna other profs in this instance as well.
>>>* Bounty Hunters: They provide the SEA's that help us...and crystals sometimes
>>>
>>>good point, although i think loot is generally over-valued... thats a different discussion
>>>for a different thread though.
>> Loot being overpriced or not has nothing to do with independency.
>what? i ceded the point... what was posted about bounty hunters is a good point of arguing that jedi are reliant.
It's an irrelevant red herring.
> value certainly doesnt have anything to do with it... but
>why are you accusing me of being wishy washy for
> going off topic for a line?
Look up "red herring".
>>>>* Smuggler: Good for Faction Points and Spices
>>>
>>>you could just as easyliy AFK faction farm. Spices have a low profit and and dont sell for much.
>>Moved goalposts: This applies to all professions,m not only jedi.
> but if you can farm the faction your not really reliant are you?
AND NEITHER IS OTHER COMBAT PROFS! if As reliance upon B is none, and Cs reliance upon B is none, then
both A and C are EQUALLY reliant upon B. Thus jedi is no more, and no less, dependant than other profs. Thus
your claim of "jedi being less reliant than other profs" takes another crumbling blow. Moving of goalposts does not
help your conclusion in this case either.
>>>>* Chefs: We consume MORE foods than most as we are 100% combat
>>>
>>>you use the same amount as other combat profs. this is about the only profession that
>>>every combat prof needs on a day-to-day basis
>>And this, no more independecy than other profs because you're a jedi.
>i never argued that jedi should have more reliance on chef.
You argued that jedi was less reliant than on other profs than non-jedi. I list with many examples refuting these
points were produced. You proceeds with trying to salvage your hypothesis by moving goalposts.
> everyone uses chef an equal amount... i never stated differently.
And thus, jedi is no more, and no less, reliant upon chefs than other profs, moving goalposts aside.
>>>>* Artisans: We require resources, bikes, and a lot of other things (vehicle repair kits like mad)
>>>
>>>not everyone gets their vehicle destroyed as much as you do.
>> Moved goalposts: Was this about jedi independency or not? This is totally irrelevant. Jedi need items, resources, bikes
>> and have bikes wrecked as often as non-jedi. Jedi is no more independent than other profs.
> i have a combat alt...
I have jedi+pure crafter, bh/pistoleer, pure entertainer. 3 galaxies. And?
> i have gotten my vehicle disabled once in 2 months of play.
And? Irrelevant. I have not had a bike blown up in a long time either
> one vehicle every 2 months is not a dependance.
Oh for frells sake! Need I repeat? if As reliance upon B is none, and Cs reliance upon B is none, then
both A and C are EQUALLY reliant upon B. Thus jedi is no more, and no less, dependant than other profs. Thus
your claim of "jedi being less reliant than other profs" takes another crumbling blow.
See. Jedi is not very dependant upon artisant, but the exact same is true for other profs. They are EQUALLY
dependent/independent of artisans.
> if jedi do not have the ability to get their own resources..... THEY SHOULD!
We do. Now adays we get lots. same as everyone else. We can buy harvesters, same as everyone else, and place them.
(finding the spot to place thm is another matter). We can own and place houses, furnish them, and this is just as
egular customers amongst Archies as other non-crafters.
>>>>* Shipwrights: Most of us fly a lot too
>>>
>>>i hardly see anyone in space, and, you can play the entire game without ever going into space
>>>(unless you wanted to go to kashyyk.
>>Moved goalposts: Wether you see people in space or not, or wether you need to fly or not, is irrelevant.
>>If jedi want to go to tspace, they go to a SW. If non-jedi want to go to space, they go to a SW. Neither
>> is more or less independent than the others.
> use is not a dependance...
Yes it is. If you want to go into space as Jedi you need to take the same steps as non-jedi. Thus jedi and non-jedi is
equally dependent on SWs. Sure, a jedi can get a quest ship, but so can non-jedi. Sure, a jedi can get all their own
space loot and slowly work their way yup to a decently equipped ship, but so can non-jedi.
> if you want to be another combat prof you MUST see a crafter at some point.
For weapon, yes. Thats the ONLY place you absolutely HAVE to go as normal combatant. Armour, usefull, but not nescessary.
Foods, useful, but not nescessary. Stims, useful, but not nescessary, etc,etc, etc.
> jedi use crafter's by choice. you want the food, vehicle, or stim... you dont need it
Neither do anyone else. Thus jedi is as reliant upon these profs as other profs are.
>>>>* Archetects: We use buildings as much as anyone else
>>>
>>>nless you mine resources or re-decorate your house constantly your not really contributing to
>>>the architects business. in order to contribute like other profs do you need to make a purchase
>>>more than once in your career. as a crafter i have purchased over 40 different harvesters of v
>>>arious sizes and am looking to purchase another 8. again, this is a general problem with the
>>>architects wares being one time sales and thats that.
>> That is true. But guess what. Thats true for most profs. You get a house, you're done. You get your harvesters
>> as a crafter, you're set. They do not get destroyed unless you have no money for maint, and this is true
>>for all profs. So whereas jedi is a bit more unrelated to archies, so is most other profs as well. Nothing
>>jedi specific here.
> the point made is that the occasional purchase is not being reliant.
And the point is that JEDI IS AS RELIANT UPON ARCHIES AS IS NON-JEDI THUS YOUR POINT ABOUT JEDI BEING LESS
RELIANT THAN NON-JEDI IS REFUTED IN THIS INSTANCE AS WELL. No one -needs- a house.
> it is using the prof. a reliance is somthing like: bounty hunters cant be a bounty hunter without a
> droid engineer
Oh yes, they can. Its darn hard, butit can be done. Hint, there was a rtime when there where no BH droids.
You had to track your mark by wits alone.
> OR tailors cant make clothes without the services of a ranger...
Oh yes, they can. As master tailor you can esaily pick up scout, maybe some harvesting foods, a harvester droid,
some basic combat skills and join a group for maximum harvest capability. Sure, not the easiest way to do it, but
possible, and thus they do noit NEED scouts or rangers.
> he point here is that jedi's use crafters in transit while other profs MUST use them.
BS. Some professions may be symbiotic, like chefs-be, or tailor-be, but you can be Mchef+MBE, or
MTailor+MBE. Plus, the point was wether jedi was more or less reliant upon other profs than more
"mainstream profs". That point has been soundly refuted, and you'll realise that when you realise that
A being nonreliant upon B, and C being non-reliant upon B equals A and B being equally (un)reliant
upon B.
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