Jedi Archive
Thread: Jedi Have Sabers, Right? Why Aren't they Effective? Can Do More with Pistol Balance Pls
Crizis wrote:
HanzoShinobi wrote:
boost powers dmg up a bit, get rid of the stupid warm-up timers for lightning then you have powers that are viable. But dont take away from another profession because you want their skills.
I'm a Jedi, all Jedi can kick ass with sabers, its fundamental to being a Jedi. Grant the MLS additional specials if you like, justifiably so, cool specials, animations, sure... more damage, sure... but dealing death with sabers should be something all Jedi do, so boost the other Jedi trees to some degree. Brings balance to the trees that are currently unbalanced, fits the fundamental roles of Jedi, and maintains the otherwised balanced distribution of the existing trees.I mean seriously, if the other trees got only one saber special as Master, only one, wouldn't a semi-effective form of area Dervish be all that the other trees need to bring viability? MLS would still have all the other cool and uber saber specials, and enhanced damage.
pls tell me what is your template?
that way I can ask for the devs to give me some of your specials that I dont have.
why does everyone keep using dervish as an example? dervish sucks for PVP... you meaning PVE?
Daetrik wrote:why does everyone keep using dervish as an example? dervish sucks for PVP... you meaning PVE?
yeah it sucks in pve too, you would prob kill faster hitting 1 mob at a time chaining your more powerful specials.
Its not what it used to be.
HanzoShinobi wrote:
pls tell me what is your template?
that way I can ask for the devs to give me some of your specials that I dont have.
Actually, I'm not opposed to that either, make it a lot of fun. If you Master a tree, get low level versions of dervish, saber throw, aura, force channel, heal, etc. If you want the uber versions, Master that specific tree. Sounds like fun to me, and save a lot of player satisfaction issues. This is a game, after all. There's a lot of different ways to approach that and make it fun.
Good idea.
Daetrik wrote:
why does everyone keep using dervish as an example? dervish sucks for PVP... you meaning PVE?
Now, if I use area lightning against a group of only 4 NPC's, it is worthless, by the time I focus attacks on one mob, intermitten with an area attack, which is the only way to make progress against 4 NPC's and actually be able to elimanate one at a time, the other 3 NPC's have regen'd, making the area attacks pointless and ineffective. Some form of saber sweep (area attack) special would lend a great deal of effectiveness to non-LS templates, and be appropriate for the reasons stated in the thread above.
Crizis wrote:
MFW and MLS offense are nowhere near comparable as they exist today. There is no credible, effective area attack by MFW to anywhere compare with the MLS Dervish. It's like comparing a blowdart with a tank canon. This is likewise true for single attacks. There is a huge gap that needs addressing such that there is some reasonable, plausible offensive ability by non-LightSaber (LS) tree Jedi that makes them viable as an EFFECTIVE offensive template. Maybe not comparable to MLS, but viable.
Today, we are not viable offensively if not LS Tree.
Rather than tweak up the non-LS Tree's specials, and since LS are supposed to cut through flesh and metal like butter, the answer may be that since all Jedi make sabers, all can cut through things like butter. So that the balancing that needs to happen is to tweak up LS damage and special abilities by non-LS Tree Jedi, such that a saber does as saber is, and thus all templates get a lift in offense, and the LS Tree itself is more of an increased lift indamage and some specific tree-granted specials, but not all LS specials are limited to the LS tree.
Leanardo wrote:
the only gap i see is between post and pre cu sabers. My saber is like 532 max dmg with 32 fc and 126 sac, the pearls i have are crap and i plan to get betters but on my server there are pre-cu jedi with 805modified dps 13fc and 100sac. /sigh. I will never get my saber that strong due to the fact that prem/flawless wont drop ever again. /cry
Lep
The difference in pre Cu and post-CU sabers isn't necessarily the pearls but in the way it was crafted. We had two lines like weaponsmiths in the pre-CU crafting system. We would get our force costs as low as they would go and dump the other 2 or 3 points into damage/speed line so our damage went up and speed went down from the same points. Now you have to choose whether to make a speed or a damage saber after you get your action down. Pre-Cu sabers, however, were all given a standard 100sac to make up for the extra damage.
I gotta agree with Mindspat one this one. . .
Right after CU, when everyone was LS0404/Mdef, there were posts by many...i think i posted it too...that you would regret NOT taking MLS. Now that everyone sees that MLS is powerful, they all want it or want the power of it without training up the tree. You are correct, sabers are supposed to be powerful weapons but frankly, unless you are skilled in its use, you wont be as powerful as theMLS(ie, just cuz luke had asaber In epIV doesntmean he was as powerful as obi wan). .
Frankly, powers should not be as powerful as sabers. Sabers require high end resources, looted items, etc in order to be powerful. It requires time and credits to get a great saber...to argue that a force weilder should be as powerful inherently without investing anything other than XP is 'unbalanced'. Powers has its place...it is a combo of crowd control and damage dealing where as MLS is mostly damage. You chose powers for the style of it .... there are certain ways to play each prof and powers has all the tools needed to be balanced with a MLS if played correctly
U can't discuss a topic if you don't know what the subject is. MLS = Master Lightsaber, or master sabers. The term is used interchangeably around here. Now, how you can attempt to discuss something without knowing what the subject is? That's something subject to sarcasm.
mindspat wrote:
Crizis wrote:
MFW and MLS offense are nowhere near comparable as they exist today. There is no credible, effective area attack by MFW to anywhere compare with the MLS Dervish. It's like comparing a blowdart with a tank canon. This is likewise true for single attacks. There is a huge gap that needs addressing such that there is some reasonable, plausible offensive ability by non-LightSaber (LS) tree Jedi that makes them viable as an EFFECTIVE offensive template. Maybe not comparable to MLS, but viable.
Today, we are not viable offensively if not LS Tree.
Rather than tweak up the non-LS Tree's specials, and since LS are supposed to cut through flesh and metal like butter, the answer may be that since all Jedi make sabers, all can cut through things like butter. So that the balancing that needs to happen is to tweak up LS damage and special abilities by non-LS Tree Jedi, such that a saber does as saber is, and thus all templates get a lift in offense, and the LS Tree itself is more of an increased lift indamage and some specific tree-granted specials, but not all LS specials are limited to the LS tree.
I'm going to have fun with this post. (I'm in one of those moods today and my sacrcasm is going to hit the forums.)
How in the heck can someone make a claim when listing something that doesn't exist. What that hell is MLS, that some sort of disease? I'm worried, I have LM and I have no clue what players are thinking is MLS...some new magical ability?
As for lightsabers, get off your whinny little sit downs and get out there and loot crystals and pearls. Oh yeah, I forgot...you don't want to do the work to gain the advantage. I bet you're one of th eones who used the respec to "alter mytemplate" more then 10 times. Yeah, like that's legit. Now you want more? Give me a break!
If you want to do better and have a saber that's comparable to those who've been a Jedi since before the CU you'll need to do the work. I have to add, lightsabers are just fine and the crystals are perfect. There's NO reason to add anything in loot that gives better possibillities to gaining an "uber" saber.
Good luck.
Everyone knows that Jedi templates are about choices - no great revelation there, right? Kind of stating the obvious?
The issue on the table is the lack of offensive balance of the choices, or the unbalanced (overly) weak state of Master Powers. The topic addressed in this thread is not to discuss choices (particularly without also addressing balanced choices,) but is instead a look at the lack of basic lethal nature of a lightsaber, that has offensive ramifications to all Jedi. By its nature, a lightsaber should be lethal regardless of whether you specialize in techniques, or specialize in mage powers (the powerful Jedi of the films had both, btw,) and because the game does not demonstrate that lethal nature of the lightsaber, and in fact to most Jedi trees, it is little more than a sword in terms of effectiveness. This is wrong. So, to balance the offensive nature inherent in ALL Jedi, because they ALL have sabers, its the first thing they dowhen approaching Initiate and Padawanis to make one. Any Jedi with a saber is LETHAL. Or should be. Wouldn't know it by SWG standards.
So, back to this thread, all Saber use needs to be more balanced in offensive nature, thereby increasing the overly weak offensive nature inherent today in all Jedi who specialize outside of the Light Saber technique tree. Again, by its nature, a lightsaber should be lethal regardless of whether you specialize in saber techniques, or specialize in mage powers. Both have specialties, but the saber by its very nature should not be just a sword in the hands of some Jedi. That is wrong.
There are no 'non-ls' tree jedi. There are people trying to play some kind of robed-mage class in swg, but predictably since their templates are terrible these people are pretty unsuccessful in pvp.
I completely disagree with the poster's ramble. It did give me another idea however.
I think that what is wrong in general with the jedi tree is that it's weirdly exclusive.
There should have been a jedi padawan box (like in the old days) that has 4 branches. Saber, Defense, Force, Technique.
ALL jedi who make it past padawan should AT LEAST be able to wield a saber, meditate, have some defenses.
The gross mistake that the devs made was in making the trees completely exclusive rather than specializations.
This overspecialization has enlarged the gap between defense/healing/saber 'paladin template' jedi and every other less pve-leveraged template.
A jedi who masters lightsaber specialization should have a title Jedi Weaponmaster, like the pen and paper games, and pc games. A jedi who masters powers and enhancement would STILL have basic lightsaber use, some defense, and bonuses to meditation.
That IMO is the real problem. Too much and too deep a division in the jedi skill trees, and in some cases trees which are just not that useful or are redundant.