Jedi Archive

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Grunzer wrote:

True. It's never worked in another other game.

Ultima Online created Trammel, and felluca died. Most gaming companies learned from Raph Kosters original mistakes with PVP, but apparently Raph koster himself never learned, because here he is again with a complete failure for a PVP system. (Bounties & GCW included.)

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TheNarcis wrote:

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Skraak wrote:

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Grunzer wrote:

True. It's never worked in another other game.

Ultima Online created Trammel, and felluca died. Most gaming companies learned from Raph Kosters original mistakes with PVP, but apparently Raph koster himself never learned, because here he is again with a complete failure for a PVP system. (Bounties & GCW included.)

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Didnt he and many other orginal devs resign long before this ever REEALLY became a problem though?

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Dunno about other devs, but Raph Koster is still with SOE. He is the Chief Creative Officer. (go figure)

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Skraak wrote:

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TheNarcis wrote:

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Skraak wrote:

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Grunzer wrote:

True. It's never worked in another other game.

Ultima Online created Trammel, and felluca died. Most gaming companies learned from Raph Kosters original mistakes with PVP, but apparently Raph koster himself never learned, because here he is again with a complete failure for a PVP system. (Bounties & GCW included.)

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Didnt he and many other orginal devs resign long before this ever REEALLY became a problem though?

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Dunno about other devs, but Raph Koster is still with SOE. He is the Chief Creative Officer. (go figure)

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Yeah but he doesnt work directly with SWG anymore.

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You do realize they sometimes play musical chairs with devs now. Some that work on EQ2 get slapped over and so forth. Why do you think they intertwined the systems to be so simular.

Being a Chief Creative Officer, I am sure he has a crew that comes up with ideas for all the SOE games. Thus the many simularities now.

Message Edited by TheNarcis on 10-24-2005 11:51 PM

originally the idea was to slow down jedi progession towards master templates. bh were suppose to be a form of population control that failed due to the devs making jedi way to easy to get.

also back in the day there were alot more problems in the system what with ganking running rampant. now the jedi are continually nerfed due to people that couldnt handle the risk asking repeatedly for the risk to be removed.

so what nerf do you want when they remove the terminals?

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rizzacathon wrote:

originally the idea was to slow down jedi progession towards master templates. bh were suppose to be a form of population control that failed due to the devs making jedi way to easy to get.

also back in the day there were alot more problems in the system what with ganking running rampant. now the jedi are continually nerfed due to people that couldnt handle the risk asking repeatedly for the risk to be removed.

so what nerf do you want when they remove the terminals?

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Right, lmao, they are nerfed cause jedi are asking for the risk to be removed, nothing to do with the BHs saying they should be able to solo a Jedi with ease. /sarcasm off

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Grunzer wrote:

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TheNarcis wrote:

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ZypherBountyHunter wrote:
Problem is this Forced PvP isnt bad, it jsut isnt working properly, BH's want advantage over Jedi, for easy cash, and the bug list for jedi is endless. Devs wont disable hunting until they actually do balance the BH/Jedi pvp relationship and fix all the bugs. But when they do it will be already to late because alot of jedi suffered from bugs and etc to put them deep in the xp hole.

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Agreed on that point, where the devs should have this disabled, but you can very well notice this was never good for any community. Due to the fact of one wanting more power over the other. And the nerf calls caused a ton of bugs that have gone ignored. It has never been a healthy game mechanic in any game previous, and it is proving to be even worse now.

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True. It's never worked in another other game.

Ultima Online created Trammel, and felluca died. Most gaming companies learned from Raph Kosters original mistakes with PVP, but apparently Raph koster himself never learned, because here he is again with a complete failure for a PVP system. (Bounties & GCW included.)

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Grogparty wrote:

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Grunzer wrote:

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TheNarcis wrote:

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ZypherBountyHunter wrote:
Problem is this Forced PvP isnt bad, it jsut isnt working properly, BH's want advantage over Jedi, for easy cash, and the bug list for jedi is endless. Devs wont disable hunting until they actually do balance the BH/Jedi pvp relationship and fix all the bugs. But when they do it will be already to late because alot of jedi suffered from bugs and etc to put them deep in the xp hole.

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Agreed on that point, where the devs should have this disabled, but you can very well notice this was never good for any community. Due to the fact of one wanting more power over the other. And the nerf calls caused a ton of bugs that have gone ignored. It has never been a healthy game mechanic in any game previous, and it is proving to be even worse now.

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True. It's never worked in another other game.

Ultima Online created Trammel, and felluca died. Most gaming companies learned from Raph Kosters original mistakes with PVP, but apparently Raph koster himself never learned, because here he is again with a complete failure for a PVP system. (Bounties & GCW included.)

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can you elaborate? swg is my first game of this type so i dont knwo what systems were attempted before.

thanks in advance.

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Raph Koster was the Creative Director for SW:G in it's first year of life and before that when it was being coded.

He was also Designer Dragon and a producer for Ultima Online. He helped to code the original PVP system for Ultima Online. (Think. PVP anywhere, anytime outside of cities. Think, Thieving, anywhere, anytime at all.)

In UO it was fine for a few months until the little kiddies got wise and started running with gank squads. so for a very long time many people stopped leaving the cities all together, others only travelled in very large groups. Still others were actually forced to ban together and created Vigilante guilds/squads who did nothing but hunt reds (Reds were murderers.)

Raph Koster was an opponent of creating Trammel, but they did it anyway because too many people were unhappy. Trammel is a mirror image of the original map that was Felucca, only it was strictly NO PVP and NO stealing. If you wanted to steal or PVP, you had to go to felucca. Well, everyone stopped going to felucca except the kiddies that wanted to PVP. So felucca effectively became a ghost town.

My point here is that in every other single game PVP is strictly regulated and only allowed in a few instances because of what happens (as evidenced by ultima online) when PVP is instituted on a wide scale.

Mr. Koster never got over the fact that his PVP system failed, so when he came to work on SW:G he vowed to create a PVP system that would be like no other PVP system ever before... In otherwords a PVP system that actually worked.

He failed a second time, obviously. Since PVP in the GCW and then with Bounties has never been balanced. and of course the exploiters and kiddie gank squads always gravitate towards the PVP systems and said exploits to gain advantage.

So now what you have is a situation similar to people being afraid to leave the cities in Ultima Online. Because Jedi are the only ones who cannot "choose" to PVP, and because BH with other templates has just become majorly overpowered, You have a situation where Jedi are simply cancelling because they have no safe areas to stay in, where they can still enjoy at least a small part of the game. Alternatively some Jedi are not logging in until the issue is fixed. This is basically equivilent to hiding in the cities in Ultima Online.

The system is a failure as a whole. But Raph Koster is an arrogant man, he really is one who thinks he's "all that" and will always deny that he ever fails at anything.

And because he's one of the big bosses at SOE now. We the customers will continue to have to suffer from his arrogance.

you knew the risk going into the profession, what has changed? nerfs are coming for many reasons.

bh crying = sure

jedi crying = sure

everyine else hating jedi for ruining the feel of star wars in original trilogy and demanding nerfs for many nonjedi professions = sure

why ask for things to be removed? might be better to just ask for fixes instead of asking for things the devs will not touch. to many people would quit if they couldn't hunt jedi.

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rizzacathon wrote:

you knew the risk going into the profession, what has changed?

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TheNarcis wrote:

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rizzacathon wrote:

you knew the risk going into the profession, what has changed?

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We knew the risks when we were promised rewards for our risks. Now the risks outweigh the rewards 100 fold. There is no more reward, thus it changed. If you change the rewards and give too many risks, the system has to change as well.

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Message Edited by Grunzer on 10-24-2005 09:12 PM

Heres an idea that may make the whole bounty hunter jedi wars more fun for everyone. It would require that the current system changes to speed thing up a little.

Here is my vision of how things would work: If a jedi kills opposite faction npc's the jedi's name instantly appears on the bounty hunter terminals. If a jedi uses force powers, wears a robe, or has a light saber equiped while in a static npc city the jedi's name instantly appears on the terminals. If a light saber or other simular jedi items are discovered in the jedi's inventory by a npc or probote contraban search the jedi's name instantly apears on the terminals, unless you want to add in a jedi mind trick save roll in that instant, so that if the mind trick fails then the jedi's name is intantly on the terminals.

Now for the Jedi, if your name appears on the terminals it will be removed instantly if you kill a bounty hunter with your missionor are killed by a bounty hunter with your mission. Your name will be removed only by the abovecircumstances so running away would not bethe bestoption.

Why i think this is good. It will remove the question of what causes visibilityand the question if you are on the terminals or not.It will remove the afk jedi house sititing issue. It will remove the temptation for jedi to run away. It will make pvp more in line with a tef system but not quite as extreme as before. It will validate the argument that if you didnt want to get hunted you should have stayed off the terminals but at the same time add riskto the contraband searchs. It also goes hand in hand with the ideas of the smuggler revamp that is currently being discussed. It will add the opportunity to make pvp more instant and the same time allow non-pvp status to be also obtainable more instantly. The length of timeit takes to generate visibility and the length time for it to go away is kind of boring. Im talking instant action. That can happen by choice or be forced upon you by random contraband searches. However i would say that such searches need to be a little more frequent in static npc cities as well as probots in the wild.

Now the subject of xp loss would need to be looked at in regards to my idea. I understand the concept of risk vs reward as well as i understand the concept that xp loss was implamented to discourage credit farming from friendly bounty hunters and jedi. In my opinion my ideas would add risk and add more oppurtunities to be hunted because of contraband searches and probot searches so xp loss needs to either be eliminated and all jedi missions that are generated have the same exact mission description and same exact pay out but keeping the faction designation. Only apon completion would you get a bonus based on the skill points used on the jedi skills. Or is would say keep xp loss just lessen it slightly. Im really on the fence with this xp loss because as i said i can see both concepts of why it is implamented.

Message Edited by abbink on 10-24-2005 09:19 PM

wrong i have jedi. it is way easier now with absolutly no risk if you have even the slightost clue on how to play your jedi. either way you look at it all i am tring to say is why ask for something the devs will not do? bh hunting jedi is going to stay no matter how many jedi that cant hack the limited risk cry. to many accounts would be canceled for it to be removed.

instead asking for small fixes might actually be looked at. dont cry frs instead ask for healing to go from 6 secs to 4 secs. there are a dozen small fixes that could increase jedi power. something reasonable that the devs can say yes to.