Jedi Archive
Thread: Official list of common Jedi Board Misconceptions
Lowca_Fatal wrote:
That is enough to disprove it. If people are mastering 5 professions (ALL of which they needed) and not unlocking, then 4+1 doesn't add up buddy.
And you know that your mastering all 5 how? Um.......you know the 1 "silent" profession?
If you refering to the "master" post where a bunch of people posted what their holocrons said then both instances were suspect. One instance the guy admited that his character was bugged because he could use skills from professions that he had surrendered. The second instance the poster was syntactically unclear in his post because he was posting about 2 different accounts and even other posters in the thread asked him to clarify and he never did.
I have never seen another post besides those two. Your welcome to base your understanding on those posts but based on your (lack of) understanding of mathimatical modeling I hope you'll understand if I don't trust you on it.
Given all the variables in a system, is that system predictable? If so, if you knew the speed of the fan motor, the speed of the air, the density of the air, the composition of the air, the effect of all other bodies in the universe pulling on that fan, etc, etc, etc.... wouldn't you be able to predict the type of noise the fan will produce? Just because we don't know all the variables involved doesn't mean we can't know all the variables involved and thus doesn't make that systemchaotic.
As far as particle physics/quantum physics/whatever you want to bring up, it's all theory based on the variables we currently know. Now, unless we are quite arrogant in our percentage of universal knowledge that we do actually know, then Quantum Theory is most likely incomplete making Heisenberg's principal incomplete. Who knows, sometime in the future we may find a way to measure boththe position and momentum at the same time. So, can we really say that the indeterminism of quantum theory is actually the way the universe works or just what we know of it so far? Hell, according bosonic string theory the universe exists in26 dimensions, ponder that one for a while...
My point being, if you create a random number generator and give me the formula and seed, I guarantee that I will be able to predict every random number in order to infinity given infinite time.
Xader_Vartec wrote:
Lowca_Fatal wrote:
4+X is just a guess. It is a theory, just like 4+1.
Only difference is 4+1 was disproved, 4+X has not been.
4+X is still very generic, meaning it would take a lot to disprove it. I'm not suggesting 4+X as a solution to everyone's problem either, just a similar theory that has not been disproven.
4+1 cannot be disproved by one instance. Because that one instance could be a bug with the character. Lord knows there are other bugs with just single characters.
Also, there has been no proof of this instance.
Thank you Xader, you said it for me 
It doesn't even need to be a bug either, nobody has any proof that this Combat Medic story is even true. The major reason to doubt the story: it wasn't told by the person it happened to. Yes, that's always the easiest way to start rumors folks! I read that post, and the poster was talking about a "friend" that this happened to, which is how the vast majority of false-rumor threads start.
I would love it if ithe 4+1 theory wasn't true, but one incident does not prove anything. If this occurs more than once (like, 5 times, let's say) then it will be of significant importance. Right now, however, the story is pretty much just unsubstantiated rumor.
Lowca_Fatal wrote:
Xader_Vartec wrote:
Exterminans77 wrote:
As far as the patterns go. Do we know for a fact a pattern doesn't exist? No.
Wrong. Your "belief" is not dependent on mathematics. The truth of the matter is that my friend (a graduate level math student) and I have run numbers on information posted to these boards and determined that it IS random.
Whether you believe in it or not does not change the fact that it is fact. You might not believe that the earth is round but that doesn't make it flat.
STATISTICS DON'T PROVE, THEY ANALYZE
If your friend was a REAL graduate level math student, he would not be that stupid.
Just because you analyze and find no pattern, does NOT mean you haven't tried a model that may work yet.
Did your friend get his degree of one of those TV do-it-yourself infomercials?
You sir, are an idiot. It is obvious that you don't know what your talking about
Xader_Vartec wrote:
Lowca_Fatal wrote:
That is enough to disprove it. If people are mastering 5 professions (ALL of which they needed) and not unlocking, then 4+1 doesn't add up buddy.
And you know that your mastering all 5 how? Um.......you know the 1 "silent" profession?
If you refering to the "master" post where a bunch of people posted what their holocrons said then both instances were suspect. One instance the guy admited that his character was bugged because he could use skills from professions that he had surrendered. The second instance the poster was syntactically unclear in his post because he was posting about 2 different accounts and even other posters in the thread asked him to clarify and he never did.
I have never seen another post besides those two. Your welcome to base your understanding on those posts but based on your (lack of) understanding of mathimatical modeling I hope you'll understand if I don't trust you on it.
Are you reading anything??
1 holocron - mastered
0 + 1 = 1
2nd holocron, mastered
1+1 =2
3rd holocron, mastered
2+1 = 3
4th holocron = Profession ABC
So this person has mastered 3 he needed, and he knows ABC.
He then mastered random professions, tries another holocron, and its silent.
So, he already mastered 3 he needed, and he MUST have mastered another one he needed, thats 4
3+1 = 4 for the mathematically challenged
4+ABC profession = 5.
When these people mastered the ABC, there was no FSCS
So, 4+1 is disproven
I can't explain it to you any simpler.
Katmer wrote:
Riddix wrote:You are proving randomness in nature, and that is exactly not what Albion was talking about. In computers, programming, etc... random number generators MUST start with a given string. You cannot get nothing from nothing, as computers can't think for themselves. They only do what we tell them to do. That given, they are not technically random... but they can provide enormous odds that make guessing seem impossible.. therefore given a "random" feel. So, you are correct in your particle example, as Albion is correct in his own example. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are comparing apples to hotdog buns.
Thummp wrote:
Albion. You could not be more wrong. Take a physics class and study how subatomic particles behave. Examine what happens when you try to determine the EXACT position of an electron at a certain point in time. Do a search on heisenberg.
A random number generator that seeds off of fan noise is pretty damned random. Or do you think you can predict fan noise? Besides, usually we use the term 'sufficiently random'. Which means you can mimin the fan noise with forum posts, but it still won't reliably tell you how to unlock the slot.
--ThummpSorry, Riddix, but you apparently haven't been keeping up to speed on the world of random number generators.
Please see http://www.intel.com/design/security/rng/rnghow.htm
The Intel 810 and later chipsets (starting with Celeron, IIRC) provide access to a thermal noise random number generator.
This meets all practical tests for "random", and is not algorithmically driven to produce its results (the results aren't dependent on a "seed"). Hence, it is precisely the sort of real-world example of randomness referenced earlier.
Hope this helps.
Well put.
I'm real tempted to talk about stuff I studied years ago about the nature of the universe and chaos theory, but I think I will spare you all. If you want to assume the universe is an ordered place, that all events can be predicted provided one has all the variables, well have at it. I can't imagine why one would would believe this given the state of the world. At any rate, that predictability does NOT mean that you would be able to glean a pattern from a random number generator. No, if there is a pattern to the professions, that would imply that the devs coded it that way. And while Lowca correctly states that there is no way for us to prove that this is not the case, as a software engineer myself, I can personally attest that this is HIGHLY improbable. Why the heck would a dev use patterns, which could be learned and defeated when a random number would solve the problem perfectly? The devs most likely used random numbers because it is easy to code and guarantees that there will not be too many Jedi.
--Thummp
Lowca_Fatal wrote:
There has been at least 3 threads by this guy. I'm not going to do your research for you, if you checked these boards often you would have seen it.
Why did we not see this before?? BECAUSE ALL THE PREVIOUS JEDI NEVER MASTERED ANYTHING ELSE IN BETWEEN HOLOCRONS THAT WAS THEIR HIDDEN PROFESSION.
Everyone to grind Jedi master 4 holocrons, then random professions. This is why there are only 2 reported instances.
If everyone mastered 3 holocron professions, saw the 4th, mastered everything but it, and tried the holocron again.... IT WOULD BE SILENT.
This disproves 4+1
So in other words, you can't show me anything.
Sure, if your theory actually happened it would disprove the 4+1 theory. But it hasn't happened.
Thummp wrote:
Well put.
I'm real tempted to talk about stuff I studied years ago about the nature of the universe and chaos theory, but I think I will spare you all. If you want to assume the universe is an ordered place, that all events can be predicted provided one has all the variables, well have at it. I can't imagine why one would would believe this given the state of the world. At any rate, that predictability does NOT mean that you would be able to glean a pattern from a random number generator. No, if there is a pattern to the professions, that would imply that the devs coded it that way. And while Lowca correctly states that there is no way for us to prove that this is not the case, as a software engineer myself, I can personally attest that this is HIGHLY improbable. Why the heck would a dev use patterns, which could be learned and defeated when a random number would solve the problem perfectly? The devs most likely used random numbers because it is easy to code and guarantees that there will not be too many Jedi.
--Thummp
Why??
Because being a Jedi is NOT a random thing, it is a mental achievement.
There very well be enough clues in game for you to discover your last profession. Dev's may have thought how stupid random professions would be, and implemented a highly complex system independant for each character on how to discover the final profession intellectually.
Heorot wrote:
So in other words, you can't show me anything.
Sure, if your theory actually happened it would disprove the 4+1 theory. But it hasn't happened.
It has happened TWICE.
Have you read anything?? Just because you haven't seen screenshots doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Are you really that nieve?
Albion_DeCrappa wrote:
Hell, according bosonic string theory the universe exists in26 dimensions, ponder that one for a while...
My point being, if you create a random number generator and give me the formula and seed, I guarantee that I will be able to predict every random number in order to infinity given infinite time.
2 comments:
1. Regarding random numbers; the problem is that we're only given (at the most) 4 numbers (aka professions), so predicting a pattern with such a tiny bit of data is a bit silly. You might need the first 200 numbers to even be able to have a clue as to where the pattern is going, so with just 4 numbers you're up crapo-creek without a paddle (or a calculator haha). I'm not saying it's impossible, just that things become far more difficult due to our having such a small amount of data per player.
2. Reganding universal theories: I don't know the name of it (or if it even has a name) but there was an interesting theory I read about a while ago that suggests that Gravity exists in its own dimension. The theory came about, because they were trying to figure out just exactly what Gravity is and why it doesn't quite fit right with our other theories and laws. Pretty interesting stuff, wish I still had the article on it.
Lowca_Fatal wrote:
Xader_Vartec wrote:
Lowca_Fatal wrote:That is enough to disprove it. If people are mastering 5 professions (ALL of which they needed) and not unlocking, then 4+1 doesn't add up buddy.
And you know that your mastering all 5 how? Um.......you know the 1 "silent" profession?
If you refering to the "master" post where a bunch of people posted what their holocrons said then both instances were suspect. One instance the guy admited that his character was bugged because he could use skills from professions that he had surrendered. The second instance the poster was syntactically unclear in his post because he was posting about 2 different accounts and even other posters in the thread asked him to clarify and he never did.
I have never seen another post besides those two. Your welcome to base your understanding on those posts but based on your (lack of) understanding of mathimatical modeling I hope you'll understand if I don't trust you on it.
Are you reading anything??1 holocron - mastered
0 + 1 = 1
2nd holocron, mastered
1+1 =2
3rd holocron, mastered
2+1 = 3
4th holocron = Profession ABC
So this person has mastered 3 he needed, and he knows ABC.
He then mastered random professions, tries another holocron, and its silent.
So, he already mastered 3 he needed, and he MUST have mastered another one he needed, thats 4
3+1 = 4 for the mathematically challenged
4+ABC profession = 5.
When these people mastered the ABC, there was no FSCS
So, 4+1 is disproven
I can't explain it to you any simpler.
If this did indeed happen (which we have no proof of, except a spotty second-hand account), all this proves is something was bugged. You kill me, you're taking one account to be concrete proof of the destruction of a theory that we've got ample evidence to support.
Let this thread die in to obscurity. There's nothing to see here folks...
reminded of the age-old usenet quote - arguing on the internet is like the winning in the special olympics - no matter what happens, you're still retarded
Lowca_Fatal wrote:
Lowca_Fatal,
Let me put this in very simple terms for you:
If you want to waste your time looking for patterns you are welcome to. But be warned that signifcant mathematical minds, ones that are better than mine and I know their creditials so I trust them, have looked at this with the available data and determined that IT IS RANDOM.
Lowca_Fatal wrote:
Thummp wrote:
Well put.
I'm real tempted to talk about stuff I studied years ago about the nature of the universe and chaos theory, but I think I will spare you all. If you want to assume the universe is an ordered place, that all events can be predicted provided one has all the variables, well have at it. I can't imagine why one would would believe this given the state of the world. At any rate, that predictability does NOT mean that you would be able to glean a pattern from a random number generator. No, if there is a pattern to the professions, that would imply that the devs coded it that way. And while Lowca correctly states that there is no way for us to prove that this is not the case, as a software engineer myself, I can personally attest that this is HIGHLY improbable. Why the heck would a dev use patterns, which could be learned and defeated when a random number would solve the problem perfectly? The devs most likely used random numbers because it is easy to code and guarantees that there will not be too many Jedi.
--ThummpWhy??
Because being a Jedi is NOT a random thing, it is a mental achievement.
There very well be enough clues in game for you to discover your last profession. Dev's may have thought how stupid random professions would be, and implemented a highly complex system independant for each character on how to discover the final profession intellectually.
Riiiiiiight. OK. Someone has never designed software under a deadline.
Lowca you gonna answer my question? Did you even read it?
--Thummp