Jedi Archive
Thread: Melee stackers your opinions..
acmtalk wrote:
HarlequinMK19 wrote:
Rafian wrote:
Kinda makes me wonder if balance is even possible when this game allows us to dabble in numerous professions. Maybe a defensive hard cap could fix this but then that would negate skill tapes, buffs and other things. Nerfing them isn't the answer, I used to stack pre-Cu and whenever they changed it, it wasn't hard to find another good mix to change my template to. Honestly I don't think it can be fixed, or truly balanced.
I completely agree with you. While I am not a fan of WoW at all, I honestly have come to embrace the traditional "role-based" system of it and other MMO's. While proverbial "freedom" is sacrificed in a system like that, players at least know their role and have a dedicated "job" assigned to them. In that respect there is a naturally generated balance in that only certain classes can do certain things exceptionally well. Is it limiting, yeah, but it works in its own right.
A defensive hard cap as you say would likely work, but how well...who knows.
well, But think about it... If they did that, Jedi would be the same... So you would have to choose between healing/ dealing damage/ etc....
Oh yeah, I hear you loud and clear, and I wasn't advocating this game be switched to "WoW-style" professions, I was just stating that I don't think balance can truly exist in the system we have. It never truly exists anywhere, but other games have come closer to it. While it's not an MMO, Dawn of War, which is an RTS game had great game balance. How did this happen? Each army in the game is very distinct, as are the units within them. By making many things be distinctly different, a balance was achieved.
However, you do give me an idea. I'm the last person to think that Jedi should be uber-1337-pwnz0r-gods among men, however.....if "regular" professions were relegated to distinct roles like the classes of other games, Jedi could be made into a multi-role class...healing, damage potential, tanking, rangednuking,etc. That in turn would make them a truealpha class, but one that could be countered by the right mix of regular professions. Just my thoughts is all.
Rafian wrote:
HarlequinMK19 wrote:
Rafian wrote:
Kinda makes me wonder if balance is even possible when this game allows us to dabble in numerous professions. Maybe a defensive hard cap could fix this but then that would negate skill tapes, buffs and other things. Nerfing them isn't the answer, I used to stack pre-Cu and whenever they changed it, it wasn't hard to find another good mix to change my template to. Honestly I don't think it can be fixed, or truly balanced.
I completely agree with you. While I am not a fan of WoW at all, I honestly have come to embrace the traditional "role-based" system of it and other MMO's. While proverbial "freedom" is sacrificed in a system like that, players at least know their role and have a dedicated "job" assigned to them. In that respect there is a naturally generated balance in that only certain classes can do certain things exceptionally well. Is it limiting, yeah, but it works in its own right.
A defensive hard cap as you say would likely work, but how well...who knows.
I also play Guild Wars, it is a very restricted engine in comparison to SwG but it promotes class mixing just like this game ie: Warrior/monk, monk/necro, necro/mesmer etc. Every so often you get a Fotm template just like here but it is never impossible to bring em down if you PvP alot and know your build and skills. One can argu that all class mixtures in that game is balanced and warrants skill vs bugs and glitches to be dominant. This makes me think that the problems delve even deeper for SwG since most likely the game engine with the calculations in class, skill, skill tapes, buffs and whatever else may be fubared to the point where it wouldn't even be worth it to them to recode it all. Either that or a post-Cu-Cu which is unlikely being that it took 2 years for us to get a Cu in the first place. I also agree on WoW being a bit more balanced... aside from those nasty Shamans lol.
Earth and Beyond was my first MMO, and that too had the conventional class-based system. There were "pure" classes, and "hybrid" ones. Every class had a use though, and if you had a good group with a mix of classes, you could do just about anything.
Again, I think you have a good point. I too think the problems run deeper. Mind you I'm not a programmer, nor am I terribly computer savvy, but when you consider how many things don't work properly, it seems to suggest thatsomething is wrong at the veryfoundation. And yeah, I don't see another CU in the near future, as always, I make do with what's in front of me.
Message Edited by HarlequinMK19 on 10-04-2005 04:56 PM
En-Sabah-Nur wrote:
Let me point out that people look at some rare examples. What if the 4 Jedi attacking him had 400-500 dmg sabers of 1.5+ Modified Speed. If the defense stacker had eaten Vegeparsine and Pikatti and drank some Vayerbok they would miss a bit and when they would hit their dmg would be dropped further. His armor is a notch above his normal TK armor yes and the critical. But if he tanks for that long against all those jedi and they only hit for 200? I'm sorry I doubt that would happen as common if they jedi was swinging a 740dps saber. The rest of the Jedi wouldn't probalby sweat him too much but the one who swings much faster would. I've heard players say how they own Jedi but when they mentioned the Jedi they beat some of them had no defense in their templates. Every Jedi is differen't so you can't generalize it. The one to go against this template you're talking about is a MLS with a High Saber and at least 4-0-4-0 Defender, 4-0-0-0 healer.
En-Sabah-Nur wrote:
Let me point out that people look at some rare examples. What if the 4 Jedi attacking him had 400-500 dmg sabers of 1.5+ Modified Speed. If the defense stacker had eaten Vegeparsine and Pikatti and drank some Vayerbok they would miss a bit and when they would hit their dmg would be dropped further. His armor is a notch above his normal TK armor yes and the critical. But if he tanks for that long against all those jedi and they only hit for 200? I'm sorry I doubt that would happen as common if they jedi was swinging a 740dps saber. The rest of the Jedi wouldn't probalby sweat him too much but the one who swings much faster would. I've heard players say how they own Jedi but when they mentioned the Jedi they beat some of them had no defense in their templates. Every Jedi is differen't so you can't generalize it. The one to go against this template you're talking about is a MLS with a High Saber and at least 4-0-4-0 Defender, 4-0-0-0 healer.
You're very correct...no two Jedi are alike, and I firmly believe that there are more Jedi that DON'T know how to PvP than there are those who do. At any rate, I still find melee' (now heal) stacking to be an absurd game mechanic.
MrSemi wrote:
En-Sabah-Nur wrote:
Let me point out that people look at some rare examples. What if the 4 Jedi attacking him had 400-500 dmg sabers of 1.5+ Modified Speed. If the defense stacker had eaten Vegeparsine and Pikatti and drank some Vayerbok they would miss a bit and when they would hit their dmg would be dropped further. His armor is a notch above his normal TK armor yes and the critical. But if he tanks for that long against all those jedi and they only hit for 200? I'm sorry I doubt that would happen as common if they jedi was swinging a 740dps saber. The rest of the Jedi wouldn't probalby sweat him too much but the one who swings much faster would. I've heard players say how they own Jedi but when they mentioned the Jedi they beat some of them had no defense in their templates. Every Jedi is differen't so you can't generalize it. The one to go against this template you're talking about is a MLS with a High Saber and at least 4-0-4-0 Defender, 4-0-0-0 healer.
Read this thread. This guy 4 swatted me night before last and My 730 damage saber can't help that. This thread is about him whipping some of the most experienced pvpers on the server repeatedly. Try and ignore the jibberish inbetween.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Flurry&message.id=438324#M438324
Sorry only works to see pictures with the combat log to get an idea of what happened. A swordsman could four swat me if I didn't have aura going but unless I was lagged and couldn't get a heal in I would be right on him. Being "Experianced" is all relative anyway. Just saying I've seen Jedi being told by non Jedi how to use their own templates in a fight. So when I hear a player is able to tank 4 Jedi I can believe it. Not everyone truly knows how to fight as a Jedi. They just know to spam Spin and use a suppression here and there.
there's been melee stacking for ages. I was a TKM/MSwordsman/0440 Fencer and masta brawler back in pre-CU. They wanted to stop this kinda of stacking, but apparently, nothing much has changed.
Now i'm a Master Defender / Master Powers and I dueled a fencer/something or other and it was a fair fight...the only draw back is that the melee fighter doesn't have force to worry about.
SO...since we have a force pool to worry about, can't we inflict more damage than a TKM/Swordsman? We should!! I mean, we have the unfortunate force pool, but do as much or less damage than a Swordsman. Something is wrong with that.
That's all I gotsta say abouts that.
I hate to double post but wanted to reply to this
HarlequinMK19 wrote:
En-Sabah-Nur wrote:
Let me point out that people look at some rare examples. What if the 4 Jedi attacking him had 400-500 dmg sabers of 1.5+ Modified Speed. If the defense stacker had eaten Vegeparsine and Pikatti and drank some Vayerbok they would miss a bit and when they would hit their dmg would be dropped further. His armor is a notch above his normal TK armor yes and the critical. But if he tanks for that long against all those jedi and they only hit for 200? I'm sorry I doubt that would happen as common if they jedi was swinging a 740dps saber. The rest of the Jedi wouldn't probalby sweat him too much but the one who swings much faster would. I've heard players say how they own Jedi but when they mentioned the Jedi they beat some of them had no defense in their templates. Every Jedi is differen't so you can't generalize it. The one to go against this template you're talking about is a MLS with a High Saber and at least 4-0-4-0 Defender, 4-0-0-0 healer.
You're very correct...no two Jedi are alike, and I firmly believe that there are more Jedi that DON'T know how to PvP than there are those who do. At any rate, I still find melee' (now heal) stacking to be an absurd game mechanic.
The Defense stacker/Healer template is not a new thing. I had a TKM/CM in the old system. Found most wouldn't duel me or would even leave if they were overt and not in a large group. So I had him go TKM/Fencer 0-4-4-0, Doc dabble like 4-3-0-4 or something like that. Was a long time ago. The CM was TKM/CM dabble with novice doc for cure states. Both templates with a Zabrak made it pretty formidable thanks to Equilibrium. I had a 259 dmg vk that let him dish out dmg to in the old system. People hated it and called it a defense stacker and so on. Now it's still in the system as I'm sure you can see. I'm just saying it's not a new deal. But I'm sure if one jedi with a strong saber with him may have trouble depending on what food both eat and if either is buffed or buff crystal and so on. But two Jedi with high dmg sabers would be more likely to sweep him. What stops the Jedi and the defense stacker from really sealing the deal is usually action costs lol.
Ok, np. You don't have to believe it but I'm a full temp with Force Armor and Aura, and if you haven't seen it yet, you'll be seeing it soon.
Sorry only works to see pictures with the combat log to get an idea of what happened. A swordsman could four swat me if I didn't have aura going but unless I was lagged and couldn't get a heal in I would be right on him. Being "Experianced" is all relative anyway. Just saying I've seen Jedi being told by non Jedi how to use their own templates in a fight. So when I hear a player is able to tank 4 Jedi I can believe it. Not everyone truly knows how to fight as a Jedi. They just know to spam Spin and use a suppression here and there.
En-Sabah-Nur wrote:
I hate to double post but wanted to reply to this
HarlequinMK19 wrote:
En-Sabah-Nur wrote:
Let me point out that people look at some rare examples. What if the 4 Jedi attacking him had 400-500 dmg sabers of 1.5+ Modified Speed. If the defense stacker had eaten Vegeparsine and Pikatti and drank some Vayerbok they would miss a bit and when they would hit their dmg would be dropped further. His armor is a notch above his normal TK armor yes and the critical. But if he tanks for that long against all those jedi and they only hit for 200? I'm sorry I doubt that would happen as common if they jedi was swinging a 740dps saber. The rest of the Jedi wouldn't probalby sweat him too much but the one who swings much faster would. I've heard players say how they own Jedi but when they mentioned the Jedi they beat some of them had no defense in their templates. Every Jedi is differen't so you can't generalize it. The one to go against this template you're talking about is a MLS with a High Saber and at least 4-0-4-0 Defender, 4-0-0-0 healer.
You're very correct...no two Jedi are alike, and I firmly believe that there are more Jedi that DON'T know how to PvP than there are those who do. At any rate, I still find melee' (now heal) stacking to be an absurd game mechanic.
The Defense stacker/Healer template is not a new thing. I had a TKM/CM in the old system. Found most wouldn't duel me or would even leave if they were overt and not in a large group. So I had him go TKM/Fencer 0-4-4-0, Doc dabble like 4-3-0-4 or something like that. Was a long time ago. The CM was TKM/CM dabble with novice doc for cure states. Both templates with a Zabrak made it pretty formidable thanks to Equilibrium. I had a 259 dmg vk that let him dish out dmg to in the old system. People hated it and called it a defense stacker and so on. Now it's still in the system as I'm sure you can see. I'm just saying it's not a new deal. But I'm sure if one jedi with a strong saber with him may have trouble depending on what food both eat and if either is buffed or buff crystal and so on. But two Jedi with high dmg sabers would be more likely to sweep him. What stops the Jedi and the defense stacker from really sealing the deal is usually action costs lol.
In hindsight, yeah, the heal-stacker has been around for a while, it's that it's more pronounced now given the current mechanics. I kind of remember the progression on my server going something like... pure Melee' Stacker ----> Stacker/Pikeman -----> Heal Stacker (Fencer/Doc/TKM being a popular choice)
I distinctly remember people bouncing around among those three types of templates. So you're right, it's nothing new at all. Regardless, the CU basically failed at eliminating this type of thing, so I still stand by that point 
And yeah, two Jedi who have decent sabers and know what they're doing can cut down a stacker with little difficulty. The question is...should itbe like this? My opinion is that it shouldn't, but that's only me.
We have 2 kinds of PvPers now on Lowca. Jedi and Melee stackers with Master Sword or Pike.
The first and best stacker can easy tank 4 of the best jedi and kill 2 of them before he goes down. Even made a video or 2 where he shows how amazing that spec is. Add the current "exploits" duel to get out of stasi, cooldown "macro" and you have a really messed up PvP system that aint working at all.
Its nice to see templates that takes 8 hours to grind, some slice tools, and a 300++ dps pike beat the crap out of jedi that spendt months of grinding and millions and millions (or 100s of hours) to get a decent saber because of only good pearls droping.
I personally think SOE is trying to tell us something: "We made a mistake, we made jedi to common and we wish we could remove most of you. Now we have to make you all look gimped as hell and keep you bugged soo people dont wanna do jedi grinding" 
MrSemi wrote:
Ok, np. You don't have to believe it but I'm a full temp with Force Armor and Aura, and if you haven't seen it yet, you'll be seeing it soon.
Sorry only works to see pictures with the combat log to get an idea of what happened. A swordsman could four swat me if I didn't have aura going but unless I was lagged and couldn't get a heal in I would be right on him. Being "Experianced" is all relative anyway. Just saying I've seen Jedi being told by non Jedi how to use their own templates in a fight. So when I hear a player is able to tank 4 Jedi I can believe it. Not everyone truly knows how to fight as a Jedi. They just know to spam Spin and use a suppression here and there.
Just another piece of criticism. You having Force Armor just makes you that much easier to kill for him
