Jedi Archive
Thread: 80-85% Armor or 60-85% Lightsaber block, What do you prefer?
mochloD wrote:
obiwan137 wrote:
mochloD wrote:
Since the revamp and the removal of the Jedi's ability wear armor, we have all seen are Lightsaber blocking ability against ranged attacks increased. Many people (mostly ranged classes) feel that this makes us way overpowered (melee classes however arent minding it at all).
So my question to my fellow Jedi is this-
Would you rather have your 80-85% resist Composite Armor back or are you happy with Lightsaber block?
How about they give us what they promised and let us have resistant robes.
Message Edited by obiwan137 on 09-02-200408:42 AM
I really wanted resists in the robes too but the problem is, I really hate the robes. We went from Composite Clone Jedi to Bright-White-Padawan-Robe Jedi, not a huge improvement.
IdrisTychomentioed that Guardians pre-patch had the same saber block and they could wear armor. That is true but the majority of the Jedi were not Guardians and even at Padawan (old system) i'm pretty sure I didnt have +60 saberblock or anwhere close to it (i think it was +15 but ive spelt since then). The day the revamp hit i received +60 Lightsaber block. I guess i was speaking about my (and other low level jedi's) revamp gains and not every single Jedi as a whole. The majority of the Jedi before the revamp were not Guardians (or even Knights) and didnt have access to the amount of saber block that they have now.
Message Edited by mochloD on 09-02-2004 10:50 AM
EVERY current Knight is the equivalent of 'old Guardian'. The old Guardian had a couple flaws- no state defences, and a lightsaber that did Kinetic damage. If those were fixed, the old Guardian would have been 'uber' and the class was designed with permadeath in mind - that would have been fine.
The Devs made a choice to make Jedi common. That choice will have a price to pay in power for all jedi players. Since it's 'just another profession' and most players can have one, they cannot make Jedi super powerful. Armor AND Block was super powerful. Add the ability to self heal damage, and force run, and you have 'Gods' running around out there vastly superior to regular classes.
Other clases are going to be 'nerfed' in the combat balance too. The armor certifications is one part of this. My understanding is, not all players can use composite, and existing armor stats will change dramatically. In this regard, Jedi are already 'powerful' in comparison to what will be coming the combat balance.
Our saber block in live was a result of the community asking for robes, not armor, and the community asking for 'saber block/reflect' to match the Jedi lore. What I think is the main problem is we have no block/dodge/posture defences against melee classes, which does not follow the canon in the least. For 'balance', I'd say 75% ranged and melee block would be fine for our class- 75% of attacks are flat out stopped, then we have our toughness to act as 'armor'. Other classes can have dodge , armor and toughness as well, so this seems 'fair'. In game terms I'd look as Jedi as 'Fencers Plus' with a few different and specific force powers as a reward for the Jedi grind, large XP requirements and the fact we are hunted/majorly inconvenienced from 'regular' play.
Ren
Message Edited by MericCarew on 09-02-2004 10:19 AM
MericCarew wrote:As it stands at the moment with the current hit rate it is actually equlivent to Composite. Composite may be 80% Kinetic or Lightning resist but Blast resists is still 60%. This being said a 1K hit will be reduced to 400 + additional resistances against Composite whereas the Jedi would take the full or most of the 1000 damage unless they used Force armor which would kill their Force pool.I think your thinking here is flawed. As things stand now the guy getting hit for 400 every 1 or 2 seconds is in the worse position, because he is always taking atleast some damage. Where the Jedi has an 85% chance to block every shot sent his way.You also didn't take into account that there is no saber resistant armor. So where the Jedi still has his 85% chance to block every shot the person he is fighting has no protection against a hit.I have stood at my ideal range for my weapon and fired for 5 minutes at a Jedi, who I managed to hit 10 times out of 96 shots. I guess then the Jedi got tired of the show and hit me 6 times to finish me off. That right there should speak some kind of imbalance in the system.Message Edited by MericCarew on 09-02-2004 10:19 AM
At 85% block 10 in 96 is about 1 in 10. If they reduce it to 50% it would be about 4 in 10. Typically in PvP with situations not 1 on 1 it would not go in favor of the Jedi.
Based on numbers:
100% = 0 hits in 10 shots
85% = 1.5 hits in 10 shots
75% = 2.5 hit in 10 shots
70% = 3.0 hit in 10 shots
60% = 4.0 hit in 10 shots
50% = 5.0 hit in 10 shots
So where should the line be drawn? This does not take into account of increased firing rate for Pistols and Carbines. Pistoleers using Eye Shot @ a shot every 1 second would probably own a Jedi at 50%. With lagg being what it is a pistoleer could get off 10 shots before the Jedi knew what hit him. Another 5 seconds to react. Then 8 seconds to heal his mind back. If the Jedi was caught on a speeder it would be instant death.
I think a reduction to 85% or 80% would be acceptable in a large group situation but One on one would be no contest for the Jedi. Anything less would in a large group setting would be difficult for the Jedi to maintain any healing. Even with Jedi Toughness and PvP damage reduction it is still impossible One on One which seem that is how it should be. A small group would have a difficult time. A large group would win 95% of the time. This is all assuming the jedi is solo. If the Jedi is not solo then it is as it is with any profession. One vs. 5 anyone would and should loose.
JutMan wrote:
MericCarew wrote:
As it stands at the moment with the current hit rate it is actually equlivent to Composite. Composite may be 80% Kinetic or Lightning resist but Blast resists is still 60%. This being said a 1K hit will be reduced to 400 + additional resistances against Composite whereas the Jedi would take the full or most of the 1000 damage unless they used Force armor which would kill their Force pool.
I think your thinking here is flawed. As things stand now the guy getting hit for 400 every 1 or 2 seconds is in the worse position, because he is always taking atleast some damage. Where the Jedi has an 85% chance to block every shot sent his way.
You also didn't take into account that there is no saber resistant armor. So where the Jedi still has his 85% chance to block every shot the person he is fighting has no protection against a hit.
I have stood at my ideal range for my weapon and fired for 5 minutes at a Jedi, who I managed to hit 10 times out of 96 shots. I guess then the Jedi got tired of the show and hit me 6 times to finish me off. That right there should speak some kind of imbalance in the system.
Message Edited by MericCarew on 09-02-2004 10:19 AM
At 85% block 10 in 96 is about 1 in 10. If they reduce it to 50% it would be about 4 in 10. Typically in PvP with situations not 1 on 1 it would not go in favor of the Jedi.
Based on numbers:
100% = 0 hits in 10 shots
85% = 1.5 hits in 10 shots
75% = 2.5 hit in 10 shots
70% = 3.0 hit in 10 shots
60% = 4.0 hit in 10 shots
50% = 5.0 hit in 10 shots
So where should the line be drawn? This does not take into account of increased firing rate for Pistols and Carbines. Pistoleers using Eye Shot @ a shot every 1 second would probably own a Jedi at 50%. With lagg being what it is a pistoleer could get off 10 shots before the Jedi knew what hit him. Another 5 seconds to react. Then 8 seconds to heal his mind back. If the Jedi was caught on a speeder it would be instant death.
I think a reduction to 85% or 80% would be acceptable in a large group situation but One on one would be no contest for the Jedi. Anything less would in a large group setting would be difficult for the Jedi to maintain any healing. Even with Jedi Toughness and PvP damage reduction it is still impossible One on One which seem that is how it should be. A small group would have a difficult time. A large group would win 95% of the time. This is all assuming the jedi is solo. If the Jedi is not solo then it is as it is with any profession. One vs. 5 anyone would and should loose.
An 85% chance to block every shot is just entirely too high. Yes I am a Bounty Hunter and I feel a Knight should be powerful, but not so powerful that they can do anything they please.
Why not place a 60-65% chance to block ranged attacks in the Master Saber Box. Then place a 60-65% chance to block melee attacks in the Master Defender Box. This may make a Jedi hittable but doesn't make them a pushover either. Force Armor can be picked up to negate some of the damage. Healing powers are another option. Would force Jedi to become more diverse in what skills the choose as well as make them beatable because if Jedi aren't going to be rare they need to be balanced better to fit the system.
MericCarew wrote:
Why not place a 60-65% chance to block ranged attacks in the Master Saber Box. Then place a 60-65% chance to block melee attacks in the Master Defender Box. This may make a Jedi hittable but doesn't make them a pushover either. Force Armor can be picked up to negate some of the damage. Healing powers are another option. Would force Jedi to become more diverse in what skills the choose as well as make them beatable because if Jedi aren't going to be rare they need to be balanced better to fit the system.
No ****
obiwan137 wrote:
mochloD wrote:
Since the revamp and the removal of the Jedi's ability wear armor, we have all seen are Lightsaber blocking ability against ranged attacks increased. Many people (mostly ranged classes) feel that this makes us way overpowered (melee classes however arent minding it at all).
So my question to my fellow Jedi is this-
Would you rather have your 80-85% resist Composite Armor back or are you happy with Lightsaber block?
How about they give us what they promised and let us have resistant robes.
Message Edited by obiwan137 on 09-02-2004 08:42 AM
Renairdor wrote:
mochloD wrote:
obiwan137 wrote:
mochloD wrote:
Since the revamp and the removal of the Jedi's ability wear armor, we have all seen are Lightsaber blocking ability against ranged attacks increased. Many people (mostly ranged classes) feel that this makes us way overpowered (melee classes however arent minding it at all).
So my question to my fellow Jedi is this-
Would you rather have your 80-85% resist Composite Armor back or are you happy with Lightsaber block?
How about they give us what they promised and let us have resistant robes.
Message Edited by obiwan137 on 09-02-200408:42 AM
I really wanted resists in the robes too but the problem is, I really hate the robes. We went from Composite Clone Jedi to Bright-White-Padawan-Robe Jedi, not a huge improvement.
IdrisTychomentioed that Guardians pre-patch had the same saber block and they could wear armor. That is true but the majority of the Jedi were not Guardians and even at Padawan (old system) i'm pretty sure I didnt have +60 saberblock or anwhere close to it (i think it was +15 but ive spelt since then). The day the revamp hit i received +60 Lightsaber block. I guess i was speaking about my (and other low level jedi's) revamp gains and not every single Jedi as a whole. The majority of the Jedi before the revamp were not Guardians (or even Knights) and didnt have access to the amount of saber block that they have now.
Message Edited by mochloD on 09-02-2004 10:50 AM
EVERY current Knight is the equivalent of 'old Guardian'. The old Guardian had a couple flaws- no state defences, and a lightsaber that did Kinetic damage. If those were fixed, the old Guardian would have been 'uber' and the class was designed with permadeath in mind - that would have been fine.
The Devs made a choice to make Jedi common. That choice will have a price to pay in power for all jedi players. Since it's 'just another profession' and most players can have one, they cannot make Jedi super powerful. Armor AND Block was super powerful. Add the ability to self heal damage, and force run, and you have 'Gods' running around out there vastly superior to regular classes.
Other clases are going to be 'nerfed' in the combat balance too. The armor certifications is one part of this. My understanding is, not all players can use composite, and existing armor stats will change dramatically. In this regard, Jedi are already 'powerful' in comparison to what will be coming the combat balance.
Our saber block in live was a result of the community asking for robes, not armor, and the community asking for 'saber block/reflect' to match the Jedi lore. What I think is the main problem is we have no block/dodge/posture defences against melee classes, which does not follow the canon in the least. For 'balance', I'd say 75% ranged and melee block would be fine for our class- 75% of attacks are flat out stopped, then we have our toughness to act as 'armor'. Other classes can have dodge , armor and toughness as well, so this seems 'fair'. In game terms I'd look as Jedi as 'Fencers Plus' with a few different and specific force powers as a reward for the Jedi grind, large XP requirements and the fact we are hunted/majorly inconvenienced from 'regular' play.
Ren
MericCarew wrote:
As it stands at the moment with the current hit rate it is actually equlivent to Composite. Composite may be 80% Kinetic or Lightning resist but Blast resists is still 60%. This being said a 1K hit will be reduced to 400 + additional resistances against Composite whereas the Jedi would take the full or most of the 1000 damage unless they used Force armor which would kill their Force pool.
I think your thinking here is flawed. As things stand now the guy getting hit for 400 every 1 or 2 seconds is in the worse position, because he is always taking atleast some damage. Where the Jedi has an 85% chance to block every shot sent his way.
You also didn't take into account that there is no saber resistant armor. So where the Jedi still has his 85% chance to block every shot the person he is fighting has no protection against a hit.
I have stood at my ideal range for my weapon and fired for 5 minutes at a Jedi, who I managed to hit 10 times out of96 shots. I guess then the Jedi got tired of the show and hit me 6 times to finish me off. That right there should speak some kind of imbalance in the system.
Message Edited by MericCarew on 09-02-2004 10:19 AM
Renairdor wrote:
mochloD wrote:
obiwan137 wrote:
mochloD wrote:
Since the revamp and the removal of the Jedi's ability wear armor, we have all seen are Lightsaber blocking ability against ranged attacks increased. Many people (mostly ranged classes) feel that this makes us way overpowered (melee classes however arent minding it at all).
So my question to my fellow Jedi is this-
Would you rather have your 80-85% resist Composite Armor back or are you happy with Lightsaber block?
How about they give us what they promised and let us have resistant robes.
Message Edited by obiwan137 on 09-02-200408:42 AM
I really wanted resists in the robes too but the problem is, I really hate the robes. We went from Composite Clone Jedi to Bright-White-Padawan-Robe Jedi, not a huge improvement.
IdrisTychomentioed that Guardians pre-patch had the same saber block and they could wear armor. That is true but the majority of the Jedi were not Guardians and even at Padawan (old system) i'm pretty sure I didnt have +60 saberblock or anwhere close to it (i think it was +15 but ive spelt since then). The day the revamp hit i received +60 Lightsaber block. I guess i was speaking about my (and other low level jedi's) revamp gains and not every single Jedi as a whole. The majority of the Jedi before the revamp were not Guardians (or even Knights) and didnt have access to the amount of saber block that they have now.
Message Edited by mochloD on 09-02-2004 10:50 AM
EVERY current Knight is the equivalent of 'old Guardian'. The old Guardian had a couple flaws- no state defences, and a lightsaber that did Kinetic damage. If those were fixed, the old Guardian would have been 'uber' and the class was designed with permadeath in mind - that would have been fine.
The Devs made a choice to make Jedi common. That choice will have a price to pay in power for all jedi players. Since it's 'just another profession' and most players can have one, they cannot make Jedi super powerful. Armor AND Block was super powerful. Add the ability to self heal damage, and force run, and you have 'Gods' running around out there vastly superior to regular classes.
Other clases are going to be 'nerfed' in the combat balance too. The armor certifications is one part of this. My understanding is, not all players can use composite, and existing armor stats will change dramatically. In this regard, Jedi are already 'powerful' in comparison to what will be coming the combat balance.
Our saber block in live was a result of the community asking for robes, not armor, and the community asking for 'saber block/reflect' to match the Jedi lore. What I think is the main problem is we have no block/dodge/posture defences against melee classes, which does not follow the canon in the least. For 'balance', I'd say 75% ranged and melee block would be fine for our class- 75% of attacks are flat out stopped, then we have our toughness to act as 'armor'. Other classes can have dodge , armor and toughness as well, so this seems 'fair'. In game terms I'd look as Jedi as 'Fencers Plus' with a few different and specific force powers as a reward for the Jedi grind, large XP requirements and the fact we are hunted/majorly inconvenienced from 'regular' play.
Ren
I would say that 70% would be appropriate for Jedi that arent Master Defenders and put the 85% for the few that decide to master Defender.
Also I feel that Saber block shouldnt be a Lightsaber skill but it should be a skill that all Jedi should enjoy no matter what template they possess as long as they have maxed out their template. One way to do this would be to sprinkle saberblock through all the trees much like force regen is done now.
Doing it that way will make a lower level Jedi less powerfull since he isnt as attuned to the force but a full Jedi template will have the power he deserves.