Jedi Archive

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Skorpios wrote:
Whats really needed is an In-game Survey, for SOE to be truthfull and do this, and not lie about the results is another thing but anyway to get the Real totals, when Logging in a Un-exitable Window will appear and ask the question, "Do you prefer CU or Pre-CU Combat system" with Pre-CU, Post-CU and Undecided or something.
Therefore every player in-game would have to cast a vote. Of course theres a few ppl that werent around pre-cu so possibly this survey would only appear for those who have been playing longer than 5 months.

Thats how you get a proper opinion from all the players, but unfortunately we cant do that, would be nice to know though...

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After the CU hit, I cancelled 4 accounts and answered the questionaire SOE provided that asked why I was quitting. CU was not an option.

I always thought that was a dinky way to conduct business...

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Dekka1 wrote:
I'm not saying a rollback is going to happen, I don't give SOE that much credit. But your reasons for not doing it are lacking, that's all I'm saying.

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No, time spent is defintely a factor. Much of the game, including the expansions as a whole were written with the CU in mind, and it is easier to balance than the old system was. The Doc's reasons are sound. The old system was too broken and impossibly imbalanced to go back to, plus everything is now geared toward the CU system of combat, especially the new expansions.

antares

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Dekka1 wrote:

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DocSavag wrote:


You quoted the whole statement but you fail to take into consideration the second part of it. I didn't say they wouldn't abandon a system they have been working on for the last 6 months. I said they wouldn't do so to return to an older version of the code that was broken to begin with. If it hadn't been broken they wouldn't have ditched it for this system to begin with because the risk they took doing it was massive.

Complain all you want but I stick to my statement. No one is going to take your complaints seriously if your solutions are as unlikely as the idea of rolling back the CU. Its not going to happen.

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No, no - I feel you, I just think the rest of your stratement was redundant. They worked on the system PreCU FAR longer than they have postCU. So obviously"time spent"wouldn't be a deciding factor in switching back. Both systems are/were broken.

I'm not saying a rollback is going to happen, I don't give SOE that much credit. But your reasons for not doing it are lacking, that's all I'm saying.

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My whole point is the comparison of the old with the new. They can't just go back. So its a waste of time talking about it. Our time would be a lot better spent talking about things we would like to see in THIS system. Even if its something they took out from the old system you have to approach it from the standpoint of moving forward not backward.

To the poster up a few who asked what was wrong with the old system:

(Just a few examples)

Armor was too powerful. It was possible through various loot drops and experimentation etc to get armor that approached 80-90% reduction of damage taken. That mean some players were nearly invulnerable.

Buffs were too powerful. The way the buffs worked you could buff your secondary stats (that don't exist any more) to the point where you didn't incur any cost to using specials.

Weapons were over powered. There were hundreds of high power DOT weapons that were looted (and had no certifications) and many weren't decaying properly. A DOT weapon like this would have a major influance on a fight.

Combat Medics had undue power in large battles. Some major confrontations would literally be decided by how many CM's you had. High powered area affect poisons would attack the unhealable mind pool and would bring a major battle to a halt while people regenerated their mind damage.

These systems caused side effects: To counteract over powered players who could take on red cons without fear they kept increasing damage output and armor resistance on mobs. High level mobs would have more than 200k in HAM and would be 60-80% resistant to all but a few attacks.

THey couldn't just tweak a few things and get it all to work. The underlying issue with armor and buffs and weapons had to do with the way the game system worked. Skill mods were stacking in a linear fashion instead of the scaled diminishing returns fashion they are doing now. It was always possible under the old system to get a higher result than was intended because the system was too complex and there weren't enough checks to prevent over powered results. This all had to change. Its the root of most of the changes in the CU.

To my mind the only changes to the CU that weren't predictable by ANYONE who was involved in the discussions about the game back then were the emergance of the overt CL level (and the modifiers involved) and the removal of the combat queue. Everything else was exactly what we had known for months. Armor and buffs had to be nerfed back to being a "bonus" to your abilities not a definition of them. Weapons had to be related to skills and not give you powers you didn't have the skill for (DOTS when you don't have a DOT skill etc )

I know why they put in the CL system the way they did even though its the source of most of my frustrations with the game now. Its a way to prevent you from soloing things they don't want you to solo. You can't solo things more than 10 levels above you because you can't take the damage they put out. (There are exceptions to this but that is the intent)

The combat queue is trickier. I don't know why they removed it other than their stated goal that it would make the game faster paced. I do think playing without the queue makes you pay more attention to what you are doing but I understand those who want it back. When we had it you just stacked everthing in there and went for a sandwich..I"m not sure how that is more challenging.

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DocSavag wrote:

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Dekka1 wrote:

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DocSavag wrote:


You quoted the whole statement but you fail to take into consideration the second part of it. I didn't say they wouldn't abandon a system they have been working on for the last 6 months. I said they wouldn't do so to return to an older version of the code that was broken to begin with. If it hadn't been broken they wouldn't have ditched it for this system to begin with because the risk they took doing it was massive.

Complain all you want but I stick to my statement. No one is going to take your complaints seriously if your solutions are as unlikely as the idea of rolling back the CU. Its not going to happen.

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No, no - I feel you, I just think the rest of your stratement was redundant. They worked on the system PreCU FAR longer than they have postCU. So obviously"time spent"wouldn't be a deciding factor in switching back. Both systems are/were broken.

I'm not saying a rollback is going to happen, I don't give SOE that much credit. But your reasons for not doing it are lacking, that's all I'm saying.

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My whole point is the comparison of the old with the new. They can't just go back. So its a waste of time talking about it. Our time would be a lot better spent talking about things we would like to see in THIS system. Even if its something they took out from the old system you have to approach it from the standpoint of moving forward not backward.

To the poster up a few who asked what was wrong with the old system:

(Just a few examples)

Armor was too powerful. It was possible through various loot drops and experimentation etc to get armor that approached 80-90% reduction of damage taken. That mean some players were nearly invulnerable.

Buffs were too powerful. The way the buffs worked you could buff your secondary stats (that don't exist any more) to the point where you didn't incur any cost to using specials.

Weapons were over powered. There were hundreds of high power DOT weapons that were looted (and had no certifications) and many weren't decaying properly. A DOT weapon like this would have a major influance on a fight.

Combat Medics had undue power in large battles. Some major confrontations would literally be decided by how many CM's you had. High powered area affect poisons would attack the unhealable mind pool and would bring a major battle to a halt while people regenerated their mind damage.

These systems caused side effects: To counteract over powered players who could take on red cons without fear they kept increasing damage output and armor resistance on mobs. High level mobs would have more than 200k in HAM and would be 60-80% resistant to all but a few attacks.

THey couldn't just tweak a few things and get it all to work. The underlying issue with armor and buffs and weapons had to do with the way the game system worked. Skill mods were stacking in a linear fashion instead of the scaled diminishing returns fashion they are doing now. It was always possible under the old system to get a higher result than was intended because the system was too complex and there weren't enough checks to prevent over powered results. This all had to change. Its the root of most of the changes in the CU.

To my mind the only changes to the CU that weren't predictable by ANYONE who was involved in the discussions about the game back then were the emergance of the overt CL level (and the modifiers involved) and the removal of the combat queue. Everything else was exactly what we had known for months. Armor and buffs had to be nerfed back to being a "bonus" to your abilities not a definition of them. Weapons had to be related to skills and not give you powers you didn't have the skill for (DOTS when you don't have a DOT skill etc )

I know why they put in the CL system the way they did even though its the source of most of my frustrations with the game now. Its a way to prevent you from soloing things they don't want you to solo. You can't solo things more than 10 levels above you because you can't take the damage they put out. (There are exceptions to this but that is the intent)

The combat queue is trickier. I don't know why they removed it other than their stated goal that it would make the game faster paced. I do think playing without the queue makes you pay more attention to what you are doing but I understand those who want it back. When we had it you just stacked everthing in there and went for a sandwich..I"m not sure how that is more challenging.

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It is no different now...you just do not have the nice queue window...(which I liked)

soloing still occurs in PvE which I do not mind so much since people enjoy playing alone...its all about healing now...and in alot of ways the mind pool is still the target...

DOT weapon removal...good move

Armor effectiveness lowering...good move (however they are slowly pushing armor back to the way it was pre-CU with slices and so forth....add healing on top of that then there you go)

Doc Buffs changes...good move..however I do not like the lengh of the current buffs...the only docs I see anymore are buff bots at starports...that is not good...

Combat Medics are just as effective now as they were pre-CU...

in many ways the more they changed...the more it stayed the same....but...I am still playing...

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antares_Kauri wrote:

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Skorpios wrote:
the old system seemed to work fine for me, I cant recall fixes to it every week because it was broken.

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I'm not sure if your forum registration date matches your game registration date, but assuming it is close, I'd say you didn't see enough, at all. Toward the end of 2004, they were working on the CU, and all requests for fixes were met with the respose, "Wait for the Combat Upgrade", and so they refused to make many fixes. Yet people complained and complained and complained about so many imbalanced things, DoTs, buffs, the mind pool, etc etc etc. So many things. I'm shocked at how many people have quickly forgotten how broken the old system was.

antares

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Ive played since December 2003. I didnt use the forums early on. I didnt complain about anything in the game myself, I was always against the CU when I heard about it from the start, I enjoyed the game as it was. DoTs etc were mainly because of PVP, and im no PVPer myself, as far as PVE was concerned it was always fun.

The system is still in-balanced though, I felt that Dots and uber weapons gave a challenge, for the rest of us to work on getting even stronger, so maybe their shouldve have been a limit on those weapons rather than just ripping them from the game, I miss looting that extra special weapon or modded clothing, even if it was just a wall display.

Also my input as someone said we should be giving rather than asking for rollback to pre-cu.
If they gave variable loots like that back it would please me. If they made it so Armour Certs were different, such as all Armour wearable but if you dont have the right prof Cert then you get no real protection from it, just like pre-cu a non-certed weapon only did a small amount of Damage. I want to wear my BH armour I worked on looting for months without having to be forced into BH or Commando etc. Change that and id probably get along fine in the CU for now.

Message Edited by Skorpios on 09-15-2005 05:03 PM

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Taborzoid2 wrote:

As a long time, returning player, all I can say is, CU combat is BORING compared to the old gameplay.

B-O-R-I-N-G

It takes alot less strategy, and although it may be more "balanced" (whatever that means), it has reduced all combat, PvE, and PvE to mind numbinly boring, point, click,and wait .

Watching televisions requires more braincells.

It's perfect for release on a console platform, but really has lost the need for playing on a PC at all.

Everything that made this game "unique" from other MMO's is gone.

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QFE

When they fix the CU ill let you know what I think of it hehehe. One plus point is the doc buffs and ent buffs that are no long nesassary to play the game.

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Kal_Choedan wrote:
When they fix the CU ill let you know what I think of it hehehe. One plus point is the doc buffs and ent buffs that are no long nesassary to play the game.

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No but if you fancy taking on something that little bit more difficult, you still have to use some Food buffs, which most only last 10 minutes. For grinding and group stuff though buffs arent needed anymore which is helpfull, but the ATK Docs who enjoyed buffing can no longer do that.

pre cu was NOT imbalanced

-1 uses were, luckily they changed it

ADK's ARE imbalanced

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TheCapn2000 wrote:

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DocSavag wrote:

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Dekka1 wrote:

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DocSavag wrote:


You quoted the whole statement but you fail to take into consideration the second part of it. I didn't say they wouldn't abandon a system they have been working on for the last 6 months. I said they wouldn't do so to return to an older version of the code that was broken to begin with. If it hadn't been broken they wouldn't have ditched it for this system to begin with because the risk they took doing it was massive.

Complain all you want but I stick to my statement. No one is going to take your complaints seriously if your solutions are as unlikely as the idea of rolling back the CU. Its not going to happen.

---

No, no - I feel you, I just think the rest of your stratement was redundant. They worked on the system PreCU FAR longer than they have postCU. So obviously"time spent"wouldn't be a deciding factor in switching back. Both systems are/were broken.

I'm not saying a rollback is going to happen, I don't give SOE that much credit. But your reasons for not doing it are lacking, that's all I'm saying.

---

My whole point is the comparison of the old with the new. They can't just go back. So its a waste of time talking about it. Our time would be a lot better spent talking about things we would like to see in THIS system. Even if its something they took out from the old system you have to approach it from the standpoint of moving forward not backward.

To the poster up a few who asked what was wrong with the old system:

(Just a few examples)

Armor was too powerful. It was possible through various loot drops and experimentation etc to get armor that approached 80-90% reduction of damage taken. That mean some players were nearly invulnerable.

Buffs were too powerful. The way the buffs worked you could buff your secondary stats (that don't exist any more) to the point where you didn't incur any cost to using specials.

Weapons were over powered. There were hundreds of high power DOT weapons that were looted (and had no certifications) and many weren't decaying properly. A DOT weapon like this would have a major influance on a fight.

Combat Medics had undue power in large battles. Some major confrontations would literally be decided by how many CM's you had. High powered area affect poisons would attack the unhealable mind pool and would bring a major battle to a halt while people regenerated their mind damage.

These systems caused side effects: To counteract over powered players who could take on red cons without fear they kept increasing damage output and armor resistance on mobs. High level mobs would have more than 200k in HAM and would be 60-80% resistant to all but a few attacks.

THey couldn't just tweak a few things and get it all to work. The underlying issue with armor and buffs and weapons had to do with the way the game system worked. Skill mods were stacking in a linear fashion instead of the scaled diminishing returns fashion they are doing now. It was always possible under the old system to get a higher result than was intended because the system was too complex and there weren't enough checks to prevent over powered results. This all had to change. Its the root of most of the changes in the CU.

To my mind the only changes to the CU that weren't predictable by ANYONE who was involved in the discussions about the game back then were the emergance of the overt CL level (and the modifiers involved) and the removal of the combat queue. Everything else was exactly what we had known for months. Armor and buffs had to be nerfed back to being a "bonus" to your abilities not a definition of them. Weapons had to be related to skills and not give you powers you didn't have the skill for (DOTS when you don't have a DOT skill etc )

I know why they put in the CL system the way they did even though its the source of most of my frustrations with the game now. Its a way to prevent you from soloing things they don't want you to solo. You can't solo things more than 10 levels above you because you can't take the damage they put out. (There are exceptions to this but that is the intent)

The combat queue is trickier. I don't know why they removed it other than their stated goal that it would make the game faster paced. I do think playing without the queue makes you pay more attention to what you are doing but I understand those who want it back. When we had it you just stacked everthing in there and went for a sandwich..I"m not sure how that is more challenging.

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It is no different now...you just do not have the nice queue window...(which I liked)

soloing still occurs in PvE which I do not mind so much since people enjoy playing alone...its all about healing now...and in alot of ways the mind pool is still the target...

DOT weapon removal...good move

Armor effectiveness lowering...good move (however they are slowly pushing armor back to the way it was pre-CU with slices and so forth....add healing on top of that then there you go)

Doc Buffs changes...good move..however I do not like the lengh of the current buffs...the only docs I see anymore are buff bots at starports...that is not good...

Combat Medics are just as effective now as they were pre-CU...

in many ways the more they changed...the more it stayed the same....but...I am still playing...

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I agree with the buff time limitations btw I think they need to be a lot longer. The idea was that you needed to have a doctor with you in a group. In practice its just not as practical as all that.

But the armor isn't creeping back. That is the point of the way the new system works. No matter what you do to your armor you cannot exceed a 60% damage mitigation because of the way the calculations work.

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antares_Kauri wrote:

No, time spent is defintely a factor. Much of the game, including the expansions as a whole were written with the CU in mind, and it is easier to balance than the old system was. The Doc's reasons are sound. The old system was too broken and impossibly imbalanced to go back to, plus everything is now geared toward the CU system of combat, especially the new expansions.

antares

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Nothing about the expansions are incomaptible with any certain type of combat system. JTL is PreCU and nothing since that release, including it, could not work in the old system - or any skill based system. Nothing about the expansions exclude DOT'd pikes or 90% armor or require buffless combat, etc., etc., etc., etc. ALL ofthe expansions' contentcould fit seamlessly within the older system.

Time spent is not a factor. SOE has proved that.

If you want a change that propels us forward and not backward, I would push forward for a change to the PreCU combat system.

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Taborzoid2 wrote:

As a long time, returning player, all I can say is, CU combat is BORING compared to the old gameplay.

B-O-R-I-N-G

It takes alot less strategy, and although it may be more "balanced" (whatever that means), it has reduced all combat, PvE, and PvE to mind numbinly boring, point, click,and wait .

Watching televisions requires more braincells.

It's perfect for release on a console platform, but really has lost the need for playing on a PC at all.

Everything that made this game "unique" from other MMO's is gone.

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