Jedi Archive
Thread: Compromise on saberblock?
Commander_Blevins wrote:Wait until Combat Balance, if it is still a problem afterwards, give the BHes a special trap that halfs Saber block for a duration, like 10 seconds for example and can only be used every 30 sec - 1 min.
hmmmm ok so for that ten seconds we will be getting hit for 600-1k dmg by crippling shot and a nice carbine.
Oss_Wilum wrote:
Personally i hate compromise, but that is the only language with which to speak to anyone nowadays, so here goes:
make saberblock 60% at master sabers
increase Toughness 15ish points
Enable Saberblock in Jedi vs Jedi Combat
15 toughness seems more than enough to cover the loss from 25% less saberblock. only concern is getting hit with Rifleman shots, but i think you guys would accept it to get less damage from melees. Rifleman is going to be massively nerfed in the CB anyway, so it's probably not going to matter in a few months. Personally i think it's stupid that sabers never block other sabers like in the movies. if you guys fight so hard for owning melee, why don't you fight just as hard for jedi to own other jedi? saberblock vs jedi seems logical imo and a decent trade off to un-gimp ranged templates against you
NO
Why is it we ALWAYS have BH's here trying and trying and trying to nerf Jedi in every way possible, just so they can have an easier time.... LAME. Yea lets nerf the only defense they have, GOOD IDEA!!!
LEAVE SABERBLOCK ALONE! YOU ARE NOT A DEVELOPER!
Look if you think its unfair that MASTER SABER has 85% saberblock, then dont hunt Jedi, simple at that. Jedi have saberblock, thats what they do...There are plenty more things you can do in this game...Or you can quit SWG...
Sorry if its a challenge to kill a Jedi, hate to make anything hard for you 
Your class has more content then anyone, so leave it at that.
Im sure noone is going to take any suggestions on changing anything to do with Jedi from a BH.
I think Ill go to the BH fourms and request that they must lie on their back every 10 seconds in a fight... Hey its a compromise.,...
Message Edited by skygod99 on 10-29-2004 06:28 AM
Haven't you played KOTOR? Not only does a high level Jedi in that game (PADAWAN) have like 90% Saber Block, they resist a good deal with toughness mods. But toughness isn't good enough. We need 50% resists and light armor.
Oss_Wilum wrote:
no, i'm not a rifleman, but no one sees a problem with an 85% saberblock against ranged BH templates? if you guys don't see that that ruins the viability of any ranged BH template, you have no right to complain about melee BHs or BH gank squads with a deck so heavily stacked against a ranged BH.
i guess this is just an exposed nerve for most jedi, but i thought i was being fair, i mean, increased toughness againsteveryone(melee in particular)and having saberblock work in jedi fights seemed pretty worth it to me.
one of the points OF my arguement was that the only justification for 85% SB is rifleman and their insane damage multipliers when combined with a T21 + speedcap. when rifleman gets hit with a nerf bat like no other, like my current swordsman will one day be hit with, there will be NO justifaction for an 85% block.
after the CB, it is my intention to go back to MBH/Mcarbines but 85% at master sabers, with master sabers being, in many jedi's view, essential, the odds are just stupidly out of my favor without major changes to ranged combat or MB abilities vs Jedi.
if not 15 toughness, how much?
A better compromise would be
60 percent saber block, same lightsaber toughness, jedi can wear armor.
I blocked 60 percent of a sith's shots yesterday. His default attacks did 400 or so damage. One stopping shot got through, 2373 damage in one hit, took full damage, dead before i hit the ground. *0-90 percent comp would have takedn that to about 400 points max, his default attacks would have hit for about 80 points max. You want to take away saber block, give us armor, im sure 99 percent of jedi would trade 85 percent saber block for 90 percent comp armor.
Message Edited by rodorion on 10-29-2004 08:40 AM
rodorion wrote:
ok heres the problem with "adding 15% toughness", LIGHTSABER TOUGHNESS DOES 0 REDUCTION AGAINST RANGED. Only jedi toughness from defender works against ranged damage.
This iscorrect and the reason why I will always oppose suggestions to lower the effectiveness of our Lightsaber Block.
Lightsaber Toughness only works against melee-based attacks.
Lightsaber Block is our only defense against ranged attackswithin the Lightsaber Discipline. Jedi Toughness (from Force Defender) is the only other thing we can havetomitigate ranged-based damage. Suggesting that we have to master both the Lightsaber and Force Defender Disciplines just to effectively defend ourselves is not aviable proposal.
Perhaps if the Defender tree was removed and absorbed into the other Jedi Disciplines or Jedi Toughness was granted from the Jedi Robes/Force Progression boxes then this may be more open to discussion...
ArianSix wrote:
I find it funny that ranged players don't realise that they actually get a better average damage output attacking Jedi with 85% saber block than they do attacking a non-Jedi with armor that is 90% resistant to their damage type.
Now throw stacked defenses onto the guy with 90% armor and their damage to the Jedi is actually godly in comparison to what they'll be doing to the non-Jedi.
1) 85% block means you have an 85% chance for each shot to block. In a 30 second fight assuming the ranged player isn't KD'd and shots one shot each second it is not out of the norm to have all 30 shots blocks. 85% saber block is not an average it's a probability. Probabilities fluctuate.
2) 90% composite is not a given. Not all PvPers havea full suit of 90% composite.
3) The Stun state lowers primary defenses, the Intimidate lowers secondary defenses except for Jedi. applying these states to a stacker makes them very hit-able.
4) The stacker is now open to DOT attacks like bleeds, fire and so forth and since she is hit-able, open to other states.
5) The stacker is often a poor healer, hence the term "stacking". In any regard she is not healing mind for 1500 damage.
6) The stacker is using weapons that armor can resist.
A ranged player, if played correctly, can beat a stacker.
A ranged player despite her actions can not reduce the effectiveness of a Jedi's block. It is more a matter of luck.
Jedi feel this with those random big hits that come through.
Ranged feel feel this with those seemingly 100% block encounters.
So everyone has a beef with it when it affects them.
Does it need to be addressed? Lets examine the SWG PvP scene to gauge the answer. Ask yourself, Is ranged an equal cross section of PvPers? In my experience non-Jedi PvPers are mostly Melee and those are ranged are either holding some exceptional rare weapon or are Riflemen with rare, uber gear.
The game speaks for it self. We need not debate. When a majority of the playerbase gravitates towards a profession, or template, then there is obviously a balance issue.
RanShino wrote:1) 85% block means you have an 85% chance for each shot to block. In a 30 second fight assuming the ranged player isn't KD'd and shots one shot each second it is not out of the norm to have all 30 shots blocks. 85% saber block is not an average it's a probability. Probabilities fluctuate.
I think you're a bit off on your "norm" range for block results.
100% block for 30 shots is just out of the norm (with a 0.7% chance of happening). 73-97% was the 3-sigma range I calculated from a simulation. Also note that 100% block should occur about as often as 70% block.
As you hinted at later on in your post, Saberblock is about control of its variance. 1v1, Jedi has the control (for several reasons), and should win. Get enough ranged on the same Jedi and they will control the variance, and the fight.
SonGouki wrote:
rodorion wrote:ok heres the problem with "adding 15% toughness", LIGHTSABER TOUGHNESS DOES 0 REDUCTION AGAINST RANGED. Only jedi toughness from defender works against ranged damage.This iscorrect and the reason why I will always oppose suggestions to lower the effectiveness of our Lightsaber Block.
Lightsaber Toughness only works against melee-based attacks.
Lightsaber Block is our only defense against ranged attackswithin the Lightsaber Discipline. Jedi Toughness (from Force Defender) is the only other thing we can havetomitigate ranged-based damage. Suggesting that we have to master both the Lightsaber and Force Defender Disciplines just to effectively defend ourselves is not aviable proposal.
Perhaps if the Defender tree was removed and absorbed into the other Jedi Disciplines or Jedi Toughness was granted from the Jedi Robes/Force Progression boxes then this may be more open to discussion...
I would love to see the Force Defender tree merge into the other tree. For the life of me I don't understand why they did this. The only purpose I can see for creating a Force defender tree was a Skill Point sink hole.
Honestly, if we have to spend all these points you would think are defense would be sronger then a Fencer or TKM.
Didn't the dev's already create a sink hole for us with the 24 FS skill we have to spend to become Jedi.
RanShino wrote:
1) 85% block means you have an 85% chance for each shot to block. In a 30 second fight assuming the ranged player isn't KD'd and shots one shot each second it is not out of the norm to have all 30 shots blocks. 85% saber block is not an average it's a probability. Probabilities fluctuate.
2) 90% composite is not a given. Not all PvPers havea full suit of 90% composite.
3) The Stun state lowers primary defenses, the Intimidate lowers secondary defenses except for Jedi. applying these states to a stacker makes them very hit-able.
4) The stacker is now open to DOT attacks like bleeds, fire and so forth and since she is hit-able, open to other states.
5) The stacker is often a poor healer, hence the term "stacking". In any regard she is not healing mind for 1500 damage.
6) The stacker is using weapons that armor can resist.
A ranged player, if played correctly, can beat a stacker.
A ranged player despite her actions can not reduce the effectiveness of a Jedi's block. It is more a matter of luck.
Jedi feel this with those random big hits that come through.
Ranged feel feel this with those seemingly 100% block encounters.
So everyone has a beef with it when it affects them.
Does it need to be addressed? Lets examine the SWG PvP scene to gauge the answer. Ask yourself, Is ranged an equal cross section of PvPers? In my experience non-Jedi PvPers are mostly Melee and those are ranged are either holding some exceptional rare weapon or are Riflemen with rare, uber gear.
The game speaks for it self. We need not debate. When a majority of the playerbase gravitates towards a profession, or template, then there is obviously a balance issue.
We did these tests early on when the new Jedi stats were released and found that Jedi consistantly average 85% overall for blocked shots.
See, each time a shot is made, there is a 85% chance that the shot is blocked. This doesn't mean that it is 85% / encounter, but will most likely average out to 85% overall. If you're not lucky, I may block 100% of your shots, but on the flipside, in my next encounter, I can theoretically block 0% of the shots. It is about luck, but isn't that what stats are all about?
As for not having a chance, I've had plenty of close calls from ranged players one-on-one... BHs included - and we're not talking super weapons here.
I've been brought down 2/3 (buffed) with a Geoblaster in a matter of seconds. Had the guy been smart enough to not attack me at the Emperor's Retreat in the middle of a whole bunch of Imp NPCs (he was reb) the outcome of the fight would have been more interesting. In practice duels, I've also had Rifleman/CM templates really wreak havok, too.
Don't forget that Jedi defenses and damage mitigation really sucks. When those shots do manage to go through we take pretty much the whole brunt of the force.
As for state defenses, I thought it was previously shown that when stunned and intimidated a Jedi's defenses do decrease? I know I usually end up dead when this happens, but I usually have a gank squad of mixed templates on me at the time too so it's hard to see who's doing what.
In general, though, ranged will not win against a 85%-block-Jedi one-on-one, but they're not supposed to either. Remember 85% is Master LS and that's not a newb Jedi, it's actually a pretty high level one.
Melee on the other hand is another story, but it generally is the consensus that they're overpowered so I won't get into that then.
-- A6