Jedi Archive
Thread: -40 Combat Speed Debuff. Does It Need a Nerf? Hard Numbers Inside.
mauvros wrote:
antares_Kauri wrote:
Ternque01 wrote:
Weapon-specific speed effects operate from a logarithmic scale which means diminishing returns.
This is very true. 40 points off 120 is a different decrease than 40 points off 100, etc.
antares
Correct, and that counters his argument of "No matter what speed you have the decrease is only 26.4%"
That is false information collected from a crude test with to many variables to be 100% accurate.
Do not contort the overall thing that I'm trying to portrait here. The 26.4% speed decrease is something I put much value into because it follow DIRECTLY from testing. Sure, you are going to see variations in any test, but if you take notice of the error analysis I did in this forum, you will probably find that the ACTUAL decrease you will find from a 10 minute testing of the speed debuff (which would be MORE accurate than what is needed) will vary between 24.8% and 28% of an ACTUAL speed decrease.
You may be picking my butthairs with your post, but the fact remains that the numbers obtained are accurate enough to get a very good idea of what the actual speed decrease is. Run a test yourself. I am confident that your findings will vary between 24.8% and 28%, which is, again, not unbalancing for a debuff.
mauvros wrote:
...
I answered already, you Jedi. I said, I didn't have the numbers so I couldn't say, I also repeat that it doesn't matter how weak you think they are, if they are the defining specials for a Jedi tree, and you want the definign specials for pikeman resisted, then the Jedi ones should be resisted as well. If they're so useless and pointless, then what would it matter to you anyway? Unless you are just as most Jedi want to do, just nerf others and anything and everything that might cause the slightest disturbance.
antares
Message Edited by antares_Kauri on 08-18-2005 11:43 AM
WookieOgre wrote:
Ternque01 wrote:
Go now and read the original post. The numbers show that if you face a non-Jedi with 7000 energy resist, 75% chance of armor break mitigation sliced armor that is capable of applying a -40 combat speed debuff, that using force speed 2 and applying Armor Break to them will STILL leave you doing more damage to them than if none of you were buffed, debuffed, or armor broken.
Second, the line to get Armor Break is substantially more commonly seen in Jedi templates than BH templates with the speed debuff. Every Jedi I know has the 0400 saber line.
You're not going to convince me because I took something real, observable, and recordable to reach my conclusions, yet you rely on vague blanket arguments and arguments constructed from false assumptions.
Oneof your assumptions is the very nature of the armor break slice. You say it counters Armor Break, but that is false. In truth, the slice provides a 75% CHANCE that the effects of armor break are mitigated. Armor Break is inherently stronger than the armor break slice because the slice can be applied in times of calm and peace, where Armor Break MUST be applied in combat.
Following the same pattern, a speed buff that can be applied in times of peace must be inherently weaker than a debuff that MUST be applied in combat.
They are counters to one another, both the speed and armor break variants, yet you see the counters never truly cancel out the effects. This is by design, my friend.
Again, go to the original post and read my reasons under "Counters". Open your mind and educate yourself.
For the last time, this slice is not a CHANCE, it is straight RESIST to the damage that is done due to AB. How many times do people have to tell you this? I've even quoted the Smuggler forums yet you continue to insist that it's not butjust a chance to resist which is FALSE.
I could care less of the argument anymore but at least get that part right. If you already know it's a straight resist to damage then I applogize but from the sounds of your statements you still fail to grasp that Slicing ARmor for 75% AB resists will reduce the extra damage done from AB by 75%.
Point me to your proof that it is a straight 75% resists. The actual description on the smuggler forums says "75% chance".
KeeferKman wrote:
Don't worry so much...Axob has saidhe's leaving the game, that his subscription ends in like 20 days now...Not sure why really, just frustrated that he lost to a Jedi or something, after grinding like 12 days straight.
Why are you such a jerk? When we first met ingame we were cool as hell. Now you find me on your forums making solid points that happen to challenge your beliefs and you hate my guts? C'mon dude. Life is more than about piddly crap like that.
mauvros wrote:
Ternque01 wrote:
mauvros wrote:
The buffs dont counter the de-buffs.
Someone without speed buffs is gimped (Thus making speed buff required and we know SOE hates that word)
The devs have stated that any buff/debuff that must be applied in combat WILL be stronger than any buff that can be applied in times of stillness and peace.
Get with the goddamned program.
Dont get nasty with me boy....
Yes, the devs did say this. Then the devs nerfed the buffs thus making the Debuffs stronger than they were.
Its to powerful... simple as that. If you dont know this its because you have it in your template.
It will be nerfed or "Fixed" to go along with the buffs power. You will see.....
Jediknight2k1 wrote:
Ternque01 wrote:
Jediknight2k1 wrote:
Yes it needs a nerf along with rest of MCM because its unbalanced.
The current doc speed buff is +25 and Force Speed 2 is +20.
So - 40 speed buff means you are fighting at half speed. The MCM debuff needs to lowered to -30 to come in line with current doc buff.
This would still make them uselfull without unbalancing combat(which it does).
If the devs thought that +40 was unbalaced then clearly -40 is just as unbalancing.
You can't be serious. You are telling me that the time I took out of my life to discover what the actual speed decrease is was wasted because you refuse to take the time to read what I have written and question/comprehend my conclusions or because your refuse to do testing yourself?
Do some testing yourself, bud. You will be shocked when your numbers fall very close to mine: 26.4% change in your attack speed.
READ my post, for god's sake!
I have read your post and still believe that that -40 is unbalanced.
As for testing, don't tell me to go and get results because every MBH in the last has been MBH/MCM and know exactly how it effects me.
With -40 speed you cannot outdamage a MCM because Power Attack takes 4 or 5 seconds to warm up.
You specials are hitting every 3 or 4 seconds so wasting force is pointless.
I fought an MCM/MCM to day and after 12650 force he still wasn't dead simply because of the -40 debuff on my speed, I couldn't do enough damage to keep him down. By your own admission the attacks were 4.7 seconds apart and an MCM can heal every 2 seconds.
So in the time two attacks have taken place they healed back to full health.
Secondly, are you saying that 1200 bacta toss heals, 350 poison/fire ticks, -40 combat and -50 regeneration is actually balanced ?
Stack those on a non-Jedi and will who win ? Usually the MCM because the debuffs are overpowered.
This thread was created to educate the masses about this skill. Everything I observed was directly recorded with no alterations, and then the data was analyzed.
This thread only seeks to address the ACTUAL effects of the debuff, not CM heals/poisons/other debuffs.
Get your butt to the CM forums if you want an overall nerf for them, but I'm not going to hear any "waaaaaa!!! It's overpowered!!!" arguments concerning the combat speed debuff.
This thread wasn't created for whinning. It was created to bring the truth out. If you have some truth to share regarding the combat speed debuff, please contribute.
Ternque01 wrote:
This thread was created to educate the masses about this skill. Everything I observed was directly recorded with no alterations, and then the data was analyzed.
This thread only seeks to address the ACTUAL effects of the debuff, not CM heals/poisons/other debuffs.
Get your butt to the CM forums if you want an overall nerf for them, but I'm not going to hear any "waaaaaa!!! It's overpowered!!!" arguments concerning the combat speed debuff.
This thread wasn't created for whinning. It was created to bring the truth out. If you have some truth to share regarding the combat speed debuff, please contribute.
"I fought an MCM/MCM to day and after 12650 force he still wasn't dead simply because of the -40 debuff on my speed, I couldn't do enough damage to keep him down. By your own admission the attacks were 4.7 seconds apart and an MCM can heal every 2 seconds.
So in the time two attacks have taken place they healed back to full health."
There is your truth and it is based entirely on facts.
+40 Speed was deemed by the DEVELOPERS as unbalanced. So it is obvious that -40(the exact opposite) is also unbalanced.
You cannot in all certainy balance the doctor speed buff to +25 and not balance the CM debuff at the same time. I am not asking for it be made - 25 or whatever but at present it is unbalanced.
Message Edited by FuNkO on 08-29-2005 07:25 PM
Please tell me where you see chance, thanks.
Ternque01 wrote:
Point me to your proof that it is a straight 75% resists. The actual description on the smuggler forums says "75% chance".
This slice reduces the effect of the
Armour Break ability when this armour piece is hit in combat.
Order | Reduction | Customisation rate
1 | 25% | +20%
2 | 50% | +20%
3 | 75% | +20%
The first column is the order in which the slice must be made, the second is the amount in percentage terms that the Armour Break effect is reduced, with the third column being the amount added to the piece’s customisation rating.
) then the difference will be around 4% or so, which means that a player in an Armor Broken, 75% AB sliced suit of 7000 energy resists against a Jedi with a speed buff that has Armor Break (most do) will be doing exatly the amount of default damage they would if no one had buffs, debuffs, or Armor Breaks applied. Whew!