Jedi Archive
Thread: -40 Combat Speed Debuff. Does It Need a Nerf? Hard Numbers Inside.
I know only a few things...
1) Axob is constantly trolling these forums with anti-Jedi rhetoric. He got smart enough to post some stats in an attempt to lend some credibility (/clap). However, his bias has and always will be anti-Jedi (Of course, until he completes the village grind, that is. Then he will become the biggest Jedi advocate ever).
antares_Kauri wrote:
Look who's dodging! I said "the Jedi effects that are unresistable" isn't that clear enough? Obviously not since you included effects that are resisted currently in your list...
I was talking about any Jedi state effect that isn't resisted, whether you personally think it's useless or not, doesn't matter. You want to make pikeman's primary effects half as useable as they are now, and resisted, then I asked you if you thought it fair that jedi get all of their effects resisted. I wasn't talking about ones already resisted like blind, clearly.
So, still doubt the existance of diminishing returns somehow?
antares
I believe diminishing returns does exist but I fail to see how it affects debuffs and buffs. +20 buff does not add +20 speed and it does not base a % from your already 120 speed. I believe it gives you a 20% increase in speed, so if your speed is 1.5 it will now be 1.2. If you speed is hit by a 40% decrease in speed, it changes to 2.1. **If this assumption is wrong, there should have been absolutely NO WAY a non-MLS Jedi could hit once a second with both speed buffs when you have dimishing returns there....I know for a fact a non-MLS could hit once a second with +40 and +25 speed buffs**
The test he ran is deceptive. No matter what he says it decreases your modified speed by 40%. No matter what he says you can only increase your speed by 25 or 20%. Calculating how many times a person hits another player has NOTHING to do with those facts. If he wants to argue that it only gives a 26% reduction in Attacks, lol fine. I could make the same EXACT arguement for the speed buffs but the devs still nerfed it didn't they.
I'm all for the debuff to be more powerful but not at the current level. Devs will decide if it's too good or not.
Message Edited by WookieOgre on 08-18-2005 11:38 AM
antares_Kauri wrote:
mauvros wrote:
Im very aware they exist. The point is we dont have exact data on how they work thus you cant come up with a 100% number on how it effects combat other than from ingame data that is not 100% accurate due to many factors.
antares_Kauri wrote:
No, point not proven. You didn't even look at the link. Approximate because it's a 3rd order polynomial derived from test data. What is your problem? Diminishing returns has been talked about for a very long time.
antares
But you can very easily say that a -40 decrease at 140 speed will have a very different effect that a -40 decrease at 100 speed, or 80 speed, etc.
And as a "CS major" you should understand that good approximations are useable and in some cases all you can get or need to do what has to be done.
antares
Message Edited by antares_Kauri on 08-18-2005 09:24 AM
Im sure there are variations. Id love to get my hands on the code to get exacting numbers. But when the OP states that the -40 speed is a constant -26% no matter the speed he is not correct.
His test was crude and to many variables apply for him to extract that number and feel so confident about it.
Yes, Approximation are used in the absence of hard numbers, but they are always stated as such. The OP is trying to make his calculations a concrete number and not an approximation even though there is an absence of data.
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As far as the other post I gave you examples on every special and if they were or were not resistible. I also added comments on how detrimental these effects were. Intimidate is the only special that you can say is un-resistible and detrimental to the target because it can be applied in secession. Pikeman has this abilityso the point is moot.
Name a Jedi special that is not resistible that is as detrimental in combat as Warcry or any other slow ability.That is thequestion posed to you.
WookieOgre wrote:
antares_Kauri wrote:
Look who's dodging! I said "the Jedi effects that are unresistable" isn't that clear enough? Obviously not since you included effects that are resisted currently in your list...
I was talking about any Jedi state effect that isn't resisted, whether you personally think it's useless or not, doesn't matter. You want to make pikeman's primary effects half as useable as they are now, and resisted, then I asked you if you thought it fair that jedi get all of their effects resisted. I wasn't talking about ones already resisted like blind, clearly.
So, still doubt the existance of diminishing returns somehow?
antares
I believe diminishing returns does exist but I fail to see how it affects debuffs and buffs. +20 buff does not add +20 speed and it does not base a % from your already 120 speed. I believe it gives you a 20% increase in speed, so if your speed is 1.5 it will now be 1.2. If you speed is hit by a 40% decrease in speed, it changes to 2.1. **If this assumption is wrong, there should have been absolutely NO WAY a non-MLS Jedi could hit once a second with both speed buffs when you have dimishing returns there....I know for a fact a non-MLS could hit once a second with +40 and +25 speed buffs**
The test he ran is deceptive. No matter what he says it decreases your modified speed by 40%. No matter what he says you can only increase your speed by 25 or 20%. Calculating how many times a person hits another player has NOTHING to do with those facts. If he wants to argue that it only gives a 26% reduction in Attacks, lol fine. I could make the same EXACT arguement for the speed buffs but the devs still nerfed it didn't they.
I'm all for the debuff to be more powerful but not at the current level. Devs will decide if it's too good or not.
Message Edited by WookieOgre on 08-18-2005 11:38 AM
WookieOgre wrote:
I believe diminishing returns does exist but I fail to see how it affects debuffs and buffs. +20 buff does not add +20 speed and it does not base a % from your already 120 speed. I believe it gives you a 20% increase in speed, so if your speed is 1.5 it will now be 1.2. If you speed is hit by a 40% decrease in speed, it changes to 2.1. **If this assumption is wrong, there should have been absolutely NO WAY a non-MLS Jedi could hit once a second with both speed buffs when you have dimishing returns there....I know for a fact a non-MLS could hit once a second with +40 and +25 speed buffs**The test he ran is deceptive. No matter what he says it decreases your modified speed by 40%.
Since when does -40 = -40%?
And I fully expect every single Jedi to try until they nerf every single special that they don't have or that has the smallest tiny effect in their lives. Warcry has very little effect in PvE. If it is too powerful in PvP and the devs (i.e. Jedi) decide the same, and it gets rebalanced, if it's fair, that's fine, but most Jedi have no interest in that.
The original post has issues and hasn't been tested out with good procedures, in my opinion, but the fact that the debuff will have a different effect for varying levels of speed is clear.
antares
mauvros wrote:As far as the other post I gave you examples on every special and if they were or were not resistible. I also added comments on how detrimental these effects were. Intimidate is the only special that you can say is un-resistible and detrimental to the target because it can be applied in secession. Pikeman has this ability so the point is moot.
Name a Jedi special that is not resistible that is as detrimental in combat as Warcry or any other slow ability. That is the question posed to you.
So you just want to nerf pikeman's primary skills and none of Jedi's unresistable effects because you deem them not important enough? I'm not surprised.
antares
antares_Kauri wrote:
mauvros wrote:
As far as the other post I gave you examples on every special and if they were or were not resistible. I also added comments on how detrimental these effects were. Intimidate is the only special that you can say is un-resistible and detrimental to the target because it can be applied in secession. Pikeman has this ability so the point is moot.
Name a Jedi special that is not resistible that is as detrimental in combat as Warcry or any other slow ability. That is the question posed to you.
So you just want to nerf pikeman's primary skills and none of Jedi's unresistable effects because you deem them not important enough? I'm not surprised.
antares
Dont dodge the question with another question. Answer it.
Answering a question with a question is a sign of an inept intellect.
mauvros wrote:
WookieOgre wrote:
antares_Kauri wrote:
Look who's dodging! I said "the Jedi effects that are unresistable" isn't that clear enough? Obviously not since you included effects that are resisted currently in your list...
I was talking about any Jedi state effect that isn't resisted, whether you personally think it's useless or not, doesn't matter. You want to make pikeman's primary effects half as useable as they are now, and resisted, then I asked you if you thought it fair that jedi get all of their effects resisted. I wasn't talking about ones already resisted like blind, clearly.
So, still doubt the existance of diminishing returns somehow?
antares
I believe diminishing returns does exist but I fail to see how it affects debuffs and buffs. +20 buff does not add +20 speed and it does not base a % from your already 120 speed. I believe it gives you a 20% increase in speed, so if your speed is 1.5 it will now be 1.2. If you speed is hit by a 40% decrease in speed, it changes to 2.1. **If this assumption is wrong, there should have been absolutely NO WAY a non-MLS Jedi could hit once a second with both speed buffs when you have dimishing returns there....I know for a fact a non-MLS could hit once a second with +40 and +25 speed buffs**
The test he ran is deceptive. No matter what he says it decreases your modified speed by 40%. No matter what he says you can only increase your speed by 25 or 20%. Calculating how many times a person hits another player has NOTHING to do with those facts. If he wants to argue that it only gives a 26% reduction in Attacks, lol fine. I could make the same EXACT arguement for the speed buffs but the devs still nerfed it didn't they.
I'm all for the debuff to be more powerful but not at the current level. Devs will decide if it's too good or not.
Message Edited by WookieOgre on 08-18-200511:38 AM
I appreciate you being on my side but your facts are not entirely correct. -40 speed does not translate to 40%. Its 40 points off your modified speed.
+20 or +25 speed from Doc buff or Improved Force speed is also not a percentage. Its points +20 or +25 points add to your modified speed.
I answered this above. It has also been stated multiple times. That is why the speed buffs were so unbalanced when they could stack, you had Jedi getting a 40% increase in speed then stacking it with a 25% increase. It made Jedi hit the speed cap (once a second) even if they were not MLS.
antares_Kauri wrote:
WookieOgre wrote:
I believe diminishing returns does exist but I fail to see how it affects debuffs and buffs. +20 buff does not add +20 speed and it does not base a % from your already 120 speed. I believe it gives you a 20% increase in speed, so if your speed is 1.5 it will now be 1.2. If you speed is hit by a 40% decrease in speed, it changes to 2.1. **If this assumption is wrong, there should have been absolutely NO WAY a non-MLS Jedi could hit once a second with both speed buffs when you have dimishing returns there....I know for a fact a non-MLS could hit once a second with +40 and +25 speed buffs**
The test he ran is deceptive. No matter what he says it decreases your modified speed by 40%.
Since when does -40 = -40%?
mauvros wrote:
Dont dodge the question with another question. Answer it.Answering a question with a question is a sign of an inept intellect.
I asked you a question as well. Do you have to be such a jerk all the time? I don't have the numbers so I can't say, but I already told you that it didn't matter how useless you thought the Jedi skills were.
antares
Message Edited by antares_Kauri on 08-18-2005 09:56 AM
antares
Message Edited by antares_Kauri on 08-18-2005 10:10 AM
antares_Kauri wrote:
Your question was pretty rhetorical as well. I had already referred to it before anyway. The point of this is it's just Jedi looking for their next nerf target. Warcry and intimidate were designed to be unresistable.
antares
Message Edited by antares_Kauri on 08-18-2005 10:10 AM
My question was not rhetorical at all. I asked you to tell me what Jedi special is as detrimental in combat, that isnt resistible, and that can be applied constantly throughout the fight.
The problem is you dont know. You argue your side of the profession without knowing the other. You say "Jedi are just looking for another nerf" to compensate for your lack of knowledge of the Jedi profession.
Go read up on the Jedi profession and the cans and can nots and get back to me when your ready to debate.
Message Edited by mauvros on 08-18-2005 11:29 AM