Jedi Archive
Thread: A cure for the Jedi 'problem' ?
6. Create a zone within the game that does not add to vis, where dualists can feel free to do their thing. I envision a star port sized structure in an out of the way location (one of the static cities of Rori?), where players can feel free to show off their PvP skills without worry of adding to their vis, and with out hurting the game play of those who don’t wish to see the Jedi in action.
Va-Mei wrote:
No matter where you go in game or on the forums, there are complaints of “too many Jedi” “Jedi are ruining the game” and “Jedi has been nerfed again !?!” Well, the two are tied together.
Are there too many Jedi? No. For one simple reason; this is a game and everyone deserves a shot at having the most powerful thing going. The problem is that there are too many powerful Jedi, they are not afraid to wield their power, and their combined strength is overwhelming the game in an all too visible way. So far, the way SOE has handled the problem is to continuously nerf the Jedi profession, while taking all the risk away. I have a Jedi, and I for one would be more than happy to see additional risk and restrictions, if there was a real reward for taking that risk. Hear me out before you flame me to death...
So, if the number of visible full template Jedi is the problem, how should SOE go about fixing that problem? If I were SOE, these are the steps I would take.
1. Remove XP gain from areas where BHs cannot track Jedi. Providing game content where a Jedi is safe from a BH is one thing, we don’t all like to be hunted 24/7 while we play, but allowing the security to grind an Alpha class safely while actually AFK is way over the line.
2. Reintroduce box loss. While you stand in the cloner wondering what happened, if you are in xp debt, you should be forced to surrender a Jedi skill box to re-pay that debt. If the real problem isn’t the number of Jedi, but the number of high level Jedi willing to die, then this would be a deterrent to dieing. With the threat of loosing his skills, a Jedi that is low on xp is going to be very careful about how they go about their gaming. To keep the chance open to actually get back into things, a player that surrenders their last novice box would have any remaining debt forgiven.
3. Re-introduce XP loss on all deaths. Allowing Jedi to die under any circumstance other than BH has made the Jedi too bold and too visible. The number of BHs able willing and able to kill a full template Jedi is not enough to deter most Jedi from getting on the terminals and staying there. For that matter, the threat of BHs isn’t enough to deter many incomplete Jedi from staying on the terminals.
4. Tie a Jedi’s strength directly to his vis. Everything that a Jedi can do in game that has caused issues within the game adds to his vis. GCW, loot whoring, public dueling, etc. I would introduce 2 new multipliers to the Jedi profession, one that willmodify the force cost of specials, and another that willmodify damage output of Jedi attacks. These two variables would be tied directly to a Jedi’s vis and their values displayed on our character sheet. I don’t know how far the numbers should be allowed to go, but if today’s average (active) Jedi vis were taken as a baseline, then as a Jedi’s vis drops to near zero, damage output might be doubled, tripled, or quadrupled and force cost might be cut in half or more. If his visibility continues to climb, then his effectiveness would continue to fall from what we see today.
If a Jedi can show the restraint to have his vis fall to zero, he should be a very powerful foe when he does unleash his strengths. A Jedi that is careless in his use of the Force, should be… less impressive.
5. Jedi should not gain vis from each other. 1st off, a Jedi players game experience isn’t going to be negatively impacted by seeing another Jedi. 2nd, if there ever is another FRS, no Jedi should be deterred from participating, so long as there is some discretion. A Light and Dark Master fighting their fight in the foot hills of Naboo… Neither of them is going to tell the tail, so if no one saw them, where does the vis come from?
6. Create a zone within the game that does not add to vis, where dualists can feel free to do their thing. I envision a star port sized structure in an out of the way location (one of the static cities of Rori?), where players can feel free to show off their PvP skills without worry of adding to their vis, and with out hurting the game play of those who don’t wish to see the Jedi in action.
If you've read this far, flame away...
WarriorCode wrote:
Basically another BH crying that THEY want to be the most powerful thing int he SWG universe....waaaaa....not someone else
Why should anyone be most powerful? No other game would do that not without something to balance it. The balance is coming and yes it means reduce the power of the Jedi. But they aren't by any means weak. Most Jedi tell me that they have not been beat by a non Jedi in months. Jedi exist in such high numbers that diminishing their power is the only option.
I also took a poll on the Jedi forum about Jedi's records against BH. Half of them were undefeated, almost all of them had only 1 or 2 losses with dozens of wins.
WarriorCode wrote:
Well interesting, but if you are gonna nerf Jedi to this extreme ...
...Well BH community you cannot have it both ways....
I'm not sure where you got the impression that I'm a BH, because I'm not, or why you think these suggestions would be nerfs to Jedi.
Item 1 Should never have happened in the 1st place. The ability of our peers to grind AFK only cheepened our own accomplishments.
Items 2 and 3 do not affect the strength of a Jedi player. They only serve to pursuade them to consider their actions and the risks that they entail.
If item 4 was implemented as I suggest, a Jedi who was careful about his vis would quickly find himself twice as powerful as an average Jedi, and far more powerful than one that actively chose to add to his visability. A BH that ran into a Jedi with a low vis rating would find himself slaughtered.
Item 5 is another no brainer that does nothing to harm Jedi (although possibly not very easy to code)
Item 6 Gives a place for the dualists to do their thing with out wory of vis.
Where is the nerf?
The nerf comes in the form of LOSS of anything attained when nobody else in the game loses anything. I have no problem with jedi losing skill boxes, xp or anything else but we are talking of balance right??? If that is the case, one of two things must happen:
1) jedi become much more powerful then they are today, given the fact that every time you log in, you risk losing skills you took weeks or months to obtain
(or)
2) Those that have the opportunity to hunt jedi and kill them must also in turn feel the "pain" of dying in the form of skill loss and xp loss.
If we want to use the Star Wars movie genre as a basis for the arguement fine, make jedi extremely powerful, damage dealing and healing.
If you wanna use a "balanced" MMORPG as a basis for the arguement, fine as well. Make BH lose xp, and skill boxes each time they fail a mission.
You cannot use both arguements when it is convenient, so please, for the 4 billionth time, take one side or the other and stick to it!!!!
The justification that "Jedi are so much more UBER then everyone else" is a myth these days. Those who believe that have not played this game in months, or have no idea how to survive in the Post-CU era of SWG II. This being the case, there is no reason why jedi should have such penalties levied against them just for playing the game. Too often BH get a mission, run a mission, get another without any fear of losing anything save a few creds on the droids they need to buy. Why should jedi lose skill boxes and xp for playing the same game by the same rules as everyone else.
CONCLUSION: Penalizing jedi for dying will be fine once DEVS make them uber again like they were in the past. Until that time comes...jedi are "just another combat profession" and should be treated as such...no skill box loss, no xp loss on death...(unless of course every other profession is willing to accept the same parameters). The arguement "hey you chose to be a jedi and this is part of it" DOES NOT HOLD WATER ANY MORE SINCE THE JEDI HAVE BEEN NERFED TO A NORMAL ELITE COMBAT PROFESSION.
Va-Mei wrote:
WarriorCode wrote:
Well interesting, but if you are gonna nerf Jedi to this extreme ...
...Well BH community you cannot have it both ways....
I'm not sure where you got the impression that I'm a BH, because I'm not, or why you think these suggestions would be nerfs to Jedi.
Item 1 Should never have happened in the 1st place. The ability of our peers to grind AFK only cheepened our own accomplishments.
Items 2 and 3 do not affect the strength of a Jedi player. They only serve to pursuade them to consider their actions and the risks that they entail.
If item 4 was implemented as I suggest, a Jedi who was careful about his vis would quickly find himself twice as powerful as an average Jedi, and far more powerful than one that actively chose to add to his visability. A BH that ran into a Jedi with a low vis rating would find himself slaughtered.
Item 5 is another no brainer that does nothing to harm Jedi (although possibly not very easy to code)
Item 6 Gives a place for the dualists to do their thing with out wory of vis.
Where is the nerf?
I think your ideas are just more stupid attempts to limit our enjoyment of the game. This isn't a direct nerf to our profession in terms of it's strength (which really isn't a ton to brag about) but it is a nerf to our play style which most of us just play like normal players. If the developers want to make us less visible, then the only really acceptable way to do that in my opinion is to give us somewhere else to be. Not just some stupid dueling arena, because we're not going to hang out in arena all day for one thing, and dueling is just small pvp anyway. The answer isn't to punish us for playing a certain way, it is to reward us for playing a different way. You suggested something like that in number 4, but i don't think that'll work either because it would completely unbalance jedi vs. jedi pvp, and if they make that against the "rules" then i think there would be a lot more canceled accounts. So to sum it up, i dissagree with every one of your ideas and think that if you really want to solve this problem then you should go back to the drawing board and come up with some possitive reasons not to pvp in npc cities.
Point 1: I totally agree. enough said there.
Points 2 & 3: kinda go together I think. Both good options, if Jedi actually had something to lose, they may stay in hiding more. These are the ways originally intended to control Jedi population anyway, nothing wrong with them in the least. Except for all the screaming players that will come in the aftermath of such changes. BH kill xp loss is nothing. So many Jedi cry about it, and then go make it back in a matter of a couple hours tops. There should be xp loss for every death for sure. Used to be that way, whynot make it so again? As much as I agree with the idea ofpermadeath, I don't think it's truly reasonable. If a Jedi Knight lost his template, he'd quit. He'd be so gone. So that's not viable for SOE, losing customers and all. But there needs to be risk. I agree that BHs should lose something as well, besides a few points of pvp rating and some pride. But I alsothink that every combat profession should lose something in death so what's my opinion worth 
Point 4: that's kinda cool actually. An interesting idea.
Point 5: Dark jedi should give Light jedi vis, and vice versa. They're supposed to be against each other, not helping each other. I see the point you're trying to make, all jedi together etc... plus players don't necessarily discriminate in such ways in game. A dark jedi may have a whole bunch of light friends. But as far as SW goes, they should be killing each other, not protecting one another. But perhaps same faction players shouldn't give vis to same faction jedi. Those two groups are supposed to be helping each other. Sort of anyway. Until they figure it out and give jedi their own factions.
Point 6: Battlefields anyone? Oh yeah... those are broken... still 
Message Edited by Lumby_man on 10-10-2005 01:15 AM