Jedi Archive

Thread: the thing that most people dont understand about saber damage....

MasterSheep
Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:04 pm
#1


re slicing and pups - correct - however the pistol i chose is damage capped. yes i havnt considered critical hits etc but the point still stands that a dam capped pistol is equivelent to saber in damage output in high end content


ill run the numbers for an HLR now - however as i stated - yes they do have higher mins - but also fire slower - pretty sure it balances out


will post again in a min with the numbers







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AriasImmortal
Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:04 pm
#2

Good post... I always thought (having a swordsman toon with an overcap PH, and a BH toon with a capped carbine in addition to my knight) that the whines about saber's being worse that other weapons were a bit too much... I kill people just as fast (usually faster) with my saber than I do with my PH. for comparison, My Jedi toon is MLS, but no FS melee speed or any extra speed mods... 120 speed, using a 706 max 703 DPS saber. My swordsman toon has 155 speed, using a 1388 (with powerup) PH, thats about 550 DPS. While the PH hits moderately harder (roughly 800-1k damage (before elemental) on the saber per Imp headhit with AB, depending on the targets defense and armor, while the PH goes for about 1.2k-1.3k), Saber has the elemental damage added, which can be a good bonus, not to mention the fact that my modded saber speed is about 1.2, and after I stick Imp FSpeed on I can hit about once every 1.5-2 seconds alternating headhit/leghit. While I do use Imp adrenal boost on my swordsman toon, the modded speed on the PH is like 1.9 speed.

Sabers are a ton better than everyone thinks...



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Phaelyn
Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:09 pm
#3






AriasImmortal wrote:
Good post... I always thought (having a swordsman toon with an overcap PH, and a BH toon with a capped carbine in addition to my knight) that the whines about saber's being worse that other weapons were a bit too much... I kill people just as fast (usually faster) with my saber than I do with my PH. for comparison, My Jedi toon is MLS, but no FS melee speed or any extra speed mods... 120 speed, using a 706 max 703 DPS saber. My swordsman toon has 155 speed, using a 1388 (with powerup) PH, thats about 550 DPS. While the PH hits moderately harder (roughly 800-1k damage (before elemental) on the saber per Imp headhit with AB, depending on the targets defense and armor, while the PH goes for about 1.2k-1.3k), Saber has the elemental damage added, which can be a good bonus, not to mention the fact that my modded saber speed is about 1.2, and after I stick Imp FSpeed on I can hit about once every 1.5-2 seconds alternating headhit/leghit. While I do use Imp adrenal boost on my swordsman toon, the modded speed on the PH is like 1.9 speed.

Sabers are a ton better than everyone thinks...




YOUR saber is better. MINE isn't. 397 DPS, and I consider myself LUCKY to have the highest DPS of all teh Jedi I know and group with. This Saber is a product of non-ending looting for crystals and pearls, and tuning - So please don't pull the "lazy" comment.


Sabers are great when they are close to perfect. Too bad many of us don't HAVE Perfect.





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MasterSheep
Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:10 pm
#4



ok lets do this for a typical dmaage capped krayted rifle


damage: 450-1140

elemental of 40


typical krayt Heavy lightening rifle - master BH cert


targets - all with adv critical


CL70 pve


1126 - nice and high as it should be - outclasses my mediocre saber


CL 100 PvE


445 - again less than the saber by almost 100 points - high end PvP the saber is by far the best weapon


PvP vs master def with aura


372 - slightly up on saber but slow cycle time (master rifle is much slower than a saber master)


PvP vs a poor defended carbineer (as above)


556 - again higher than saber but speed comes into it again


Also bear in mind that rifles have higher sac costs than pistols


Still vs this out mediocre test saber is fairly well balanced






Message Edited by MasterSheep on 08-31-2005 09:13 PM

Message Edited by MasterSheep on 08-31-2005 09:20 PM



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KeeferKman
Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:11 pm
#5

Lots of good information, very informative even to experienced players I think.


The problem with statistics and theories is that they don't always mean much in the "real world"


In the real world, what matters is how do you die, or loose. Well, barring Ganks, where its just a numbers game, you die in two ways:


1) You get outdamaged to quickly where you cannot heal it up - too much offense on you (i.e. a MLS against an ABroken Mdef)


2) The fight prolongs and your run out of mind or action or force


With the uber healing these days, number one is really a secondary way of dying. Most of the time now, you die by the second method.


So...in the "Real world" what matters most is SAC costs FC... Since Jedi are hindered by FC and elites arenot, that is a clear advantage in an "uber healing world". Second key variable: SAC costs....quite simple, an FWG5 can have SAC costs under 70, a saber barely under 100 (maybe 95?)...THIS IS HUGE !!! People think that the difference in SAC between 75 and 95 is not that significant WAY WRONG, IT IS HUGE...because with food/spice you can REGEN everything on a 75 sac pistol, while on a 95 sac saber you can not, much less a 100 to 110 saber.


I need not say more, the point it...


While your notions are many they don't add up to a penny (in the real world)





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MasterSheep
Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:17 pm
#6

your correct on sac costs on weapons HOWEVER - something people dont realise is the sac multiplyers on saber specials are lower than high end ranged player sac multiplyers - even with a sac capped carbine for example a human player without doc buffed will get tired fairly quickly - a jedi will occasionally run out of action yes but its not as bi gan issue as people think - the sac costs on all malee weapons are higher than ranged sac costs but the speccial multipliers are lower


- yes force cost is the decider in the end often and healing is a seperate issue - however to claim the "sabers are rubbish weapons - and need to be improved" is just not true - ive demonstrated that through the stats above



A'ru





Force Sensitive Crafting Master
Master Freelance Pilot
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Guns n Roses Weaponry @ -2971 +0147 on Naboo
Don_T_Shoot
Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:18 pm
#7

Interesting.
Why is it that my alt with a damage sliced, SAC pupped, ADK'd Proton Carbine (note the 90 elemental) always out damages my MLS in PvE?

Going after Krayts with the jedi is fun, but if I just need to mow down as many as possible in the shortest time, it is just foolish. The MBH is more effective period.

I have never seen the damage numbers pop out of creatures with my Jedi that the MBH can do. Never.

Message Edited by Don_T_Shoot on 08-31-2005 04:19 PM








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MasterSheep
Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:21 pm
#8



throw me the saber stats and the rifle stats please - ill crunch them and tell you whats going on


and also it depends what sort of krayt - sabers start to get really good from CL88 upwards.. so juvie krayts the rifle should win hands down


Also remember if you kite it you dont have to waste time healing

Message Edited by MasterSheep on 08-31-2005 09:22 PM



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Don_T_Shoot
Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:22 pm
#9

Can do when I get home.








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SWG RIP
Killed by NGE, any questions?


MasterSheep
Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:24 pm
#10

also throw me your acc stats if you can will help me fine ytune the predicted numbers rather than just guessing them



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antares_Kauri
Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:28 pm
#11

Nice post. People get wrapped up looking at DPS and DPS alone, the same goes for the higher SAC without realizing the action costs of specials are generally lower than non-Jedi specials.

antares



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KeeferKman
Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:30 pm
#12







MasterSheep wrote:

your correct on sac costs on weapons HOWEVER - something people dont realise is the sac multiplyers on saber specials are lower than high end ranged player sac multiplyers - even with a sac capped carbine for example a human player without doc buffed will get tired fairly quickly - a jedi will occasionally run out of action yes but its not as bi gan issue as people think - the sac costs on all malee weapons are higher than ranged sac costs but the speccial multipliers are lower


- yes force cost is the decider in the end often and healing is a seperate issue - however to claim the "sabers are rubbish weapons - and need to be improved" is just not true - ive demonstrated that through the stats above



A'ru








This is very complex, as you are clearly aware of. The reason people say sabers are rubbish is because when you factor in the speed debuffs, AB75% reduction, and the otherwise equivalently DPS weapons, it seems to many that the solution lies in increasing the saber DPS to make up for the other factors. This could be a solution (i.e. Jedi should cause more damage...ala movies), or it could any combination of balancing factors. As my sig clearly implies, and I am finding out for myself first hand, a really good MBH/MCM is practically unbeatable (excluding MPowers Jedi). I know some BH's are clearly aware of this. The only limit on them killing Jedi is the fact that Jedi are UBER escapers, andthey can only play so many hours in a day (I read, but do not post...ok once, but only once...on their forums)...


OOOPS...lol...BH forums are mine too now!!! yay, I can post there and not be a troller

Message Edited by KeeferKman on 08-31-2005 06:31 PM





No Gaming Enjoyment
MasterSheep
Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:44 pm
#13


i agree - the counters to AB and the heals of a CM are powerful anti saber abilities - (but to get MCM you lose alot in weapon mod speed which isyour weakness)- and are very good at countering the jedi who just goes in with a FOTM master LS master defender template and hopes just coz they have a saber they should win.


the point of my post is to show that sabers (completely ignoring speed buffs/debuffs - and armourbreak both the + and - of using a saber) are actually well balanced (showed that with a 500-400 saber) and a 700-600 saber with 200 elemental is significantly better than anyother weapon. the solution isnt to powerup sabers to make them unbalanced the solution is for jedi to realise the battels they cant win and run.


for example a jedi with sap and cloak should be able to beat a BH/CM template and as you said master powers cuts right through energy resist armours.


The issues here are much more complex than most people appreciate and hopefully ive enlightened alot of people to this. If ive achieved that then this post is a success - and has yet to get flamed (crosses fingers).


A'ru



Message Edited by MasterSheep on 08-31-2005 09:45 PM



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