Image Designer Archive
Thread: Let's talk about: Image Design skill gain
We've talked this to death so I wanted to try to narrow our focus in this discussion. Here is whatwe're hearing so far:
Peopleeither feel that:
- ID should not be able to be ground out inless than 24 (my arbitrarynumber)hours.
- It doesn't matter how fast ID is ground out.
Group 1feelsthe minimum amount of time taken for mastering ID should be raised because:
- Image Design mastery is not respected by those who know it can be done in two hours and/or
- Image Design mastery does not give one a feeling of satisfaction if done quickly and/or
- Image Design mastery was not intended to be doable so fast by SOE
It appears themajority of players wouldlike to see ID (as well as many other professions) made tonot be masterable in the1 1/2to4 hour range with the following terms:
- The progression ofcasual players(whether they be so b/c ofinclination or playtime) should not be slowed down
- The use of macros (used in a non-expoitative manner)should not be impeded
The extremely fast ID skill gain seems to happen when focus and willpower are buffed to insane numbers, with reports as high as 2000+. Focus controlling how much mind an ID action takes, and willpower how fast your mind regenerates. The insane buffing is brought about by use of food/drink, spices, and entertainer buffs (with master dancer/musician ones being most efficient of course). Food and drink should be left alone in my opinion, it already is limited by how much you can stuff into your body before you are full. So in this thread I would like to hear specific suggestions regarding the use of spices and entertainer buffs in ID skill gain. (Do keep in mind thateven without the use of those, ID can be mastered in under 12 hours...)
So, right now focus and willpower can be brought up to such heights that macro users do not even have to use pauses to allow mind to regenerate... What suggestions do you havefor hinderingthe ability of someone to keep their mind regenerating at phenomenal rates (via high willpower), and having tiny mind costs per ID change (via high focus)?
Kwee wrote:
The extremely fast ID skill gain seems to happen when focus and willpower are buffed to insane numbers, with reports as high as 2000+. Focus controlling how much mind an ID action takes, and willpower how fast your mind regenerates. The insane buffing is brought about by use of food/drink, spices, and entertainer buffs (with master dancer/musician ones being most efficient of course). Food and drink should be left alone in my opinion, it already is limited by how much you can stuff into your body before you are full. So in this thread I would like to hear specific suggestions regarding the use of spices and entertainer buffs in ID skill gain. (Do keep in mind thateven without the use of those, ID can be mastered in under 12 hours...)
So, right now focus and willpower can be brought up to such heights that macro users do not even have to use pauses to allow mind to regenerate... What suggestions do you havefor hinderingthe ability of someone to keep their mind regenerating at phenomenal rates (via high willpower), and having tiny mind costs per ID change (via high focus)?
Awesome summaryof our discussions over the last few months!
I'm not sure that this is directly on point, but it's a suggestion I've made before, and it may pertain to the spice issue.
The mind-to-xp ratio as it is now rewards small repetative changes (i.e. 43 mind for 50 xp) , and penalizes the use of higher level changes (i.e. 450 mind for 350 xp or something around there). Rather, my suggestion envisions a system where if a change that gains 50 experience costs 60 mind, then a change that gains 300 experience will cost 360 mind.
The current "ramp up"system for the mind-to-xp ratio seems to be counter to most professions. While we seem to be better off using the novice entertainer skills over and over again,in many professions the higher level gun you get, the better creatures you can kill, the more experience per kill etc. The current system is comparable to a pistoleer gaining experience faster killing womp-rats with a CDEF than rancors with a... fbghx (whatever the heck they use).
If the mind-to-xp ratio were constant, I believe the following would occur:
- The lower level changes would deplete the mind bar faster, even with spices, forcing thepowergamer to take breaks.
- The image designer in training would have incentive (or at least no disincentive) to use higher level customizations as he/she got them, encouraging knowledge about the new features of the profession while going up the skill tree, rather than doingthe first "tests" after hitting master.
I'm not exactly sure whether making the mind-to-xp ratio the same for every change would make much of a dent in this problem, but perhaps it might help in eliminating the phenomenon of the mind pool "catching up" completely after every change is made.
I realize, however, in implementation, this system may cause problems by effectively allowing people to level even faster than they do now by using higher level designs at a lower cost. For this reason, I don't propose that we lower the mind cost of high-end designs but rather raise the mind cost of the low level designs in order to equalize this ratio.
Thanks for reading, I hope this makes sense.
biwan:You know. I always thought that ID exp did come too fast... If it were any other profession.
But we are not.
Trying to do a weight change takes 300+ mind and if you are not using buffs and food and spice, that can hack a good deal of your mind in no time. But how do you get around that? Use the Hair change since last I checked it still took no mind (and left some poor wookie and Calamari with exploited hair due to command line issues for those grinding exp with the no mind drain bug)
That would make someone be able to master in no time. But using something that isn't hair... sure, it's a little fast.
Tailors grind too. But it takes time to go gather resources. Or buy them. But it can still be done quickly. However most Tailors like to sped some time playing with their new clothing desgns before grinding some more.
What do we have to play with?
If the image design profession had more content to it- if we had more to offer as a novice ID as opposed to basic character creation (or at least as a 2222 ID- with the exception of things like skin color which should stay master ID) thenI would say that yes, the experience gain is too quick. (For those who can find someone to sit and let them grind for hours.) However, as long as the ID profession takes total mastery to get anything worth shaking a stick at, the experience gain is just fine. To have a more difficult ID experience gain with little to show for it... ::shrugs::
This issue is complicated,,with no new options and features to offer our clients, the rate of exp gain is appropriate for the profession.
****The main problem is that our profession is under-developed, there fore we have one of the lowest populated professions and that is a direct result of a lack of options that we have to offer.****
Lets assume (withan emphasis on assume) that suddenly its announced that we can now offer tatoos, scars, vendor image services,55 new hair styles for all races, neon colors for all races and even a temporary (24 hour) species/gender change, I wouldguess that within 7 days of announcement of the new capabilities our ranks would grow at least three fold maybe more. So with new options, if and when they are ever added, I feel that greater experience points are necessary to add balance to our profession.
The most ideal solution is to just raise the points per box to a higher level without changing the buff effects or the mind costs per change, Then, when the exp required is increased, shortly thereafter there should be new and meaningful options added to create a new interest in our profession and bring it up to a level on par with other profession.
I am convinced that with the new spawns near meatlump/thug locations near cities that were once favorite afk spots, the developers recognize the problem with afk gaining and how negative that has been for the game in general. These new spawns are specifically designed to stop afking those areas and already I have begun to see afk corpses, So the problems we face and the solutions are just part of the overall ongoing attempt to correct the issues that have plagued the game since launch and right now other elements of the game take precedence, Eventually the developers will get to our profession, its only a matter of time when it happens and how many of us will be here to see it.
I dont have much confidence that many new meaningful changes will occur in the near time frame and as long as we present long lists of wishes and hopes, all we do is confuse the issue to the point that nothing gets done. So the solution is to significantly increase the exp requirements first,,its easy,,quick and then we can start complaining that the exp requirement is too hard for the benefit and justify having more options. So its the age old question, which comes first ,,the chicken or the egg,,and in this case,,its exp that needs to be increased, because theydont have the man power to fix our profession allin one patch and we need to start somewhere.
As near asI can tell , all that was gained the last patchwas an exploit fixthat shouldnt even count as a image design issue,it was a game exploit which should be under a different category altogether.As a profession we were totally ignored not because of our voice not being heard, but because they simply cant fix everything fast enough, And my prediction is that we will get absolutely nothing meaningful in the next patch as well, unless Kwee can perform a miracle. ( and meaningful isnt defined asa fix for the hair bug that should have been fixed long ago)
Hello all,
I just wanted to share my views of the profession real quick.
I started IDing maybe a month after release. I had mastered Entertainer, and then Musician, and had become a pistoller and went out to make a lot of money, then dropped the combat skills and took up IDing. I wanted to be a "total package" entertainer...and while I didn't really succed, since I didn't master Dancing, I am very happy with my character.
It has taken me a long time to Master ID because it was hard to find people who would click for you, and because when I had started, there was no such thing as a Mind/Focus-Willpower buff and spices were basicly nonexistant.
It took perhaps 4 -5 weeks casual play for me to get my IDing within 5 boxes of Master, and then I took a break for a while and came back. Tonight, I had 2 boxes left till Master. I ran thru those boxes in about 10 minutes. I had a musician buff - which had it not been a guildy, I would have had to pay for, and I had food buffs, which i had paid for with the exception of about 8 drinks that a fellow guildy gave to me.
When I had my buffs in place, and mind you, I am a Zabrek withmaxxed Mind, Focus and Willpower, I had a willpower score that was very close to 3000. I spamed ear changes on a guild member for 275 xp per change.My mind never dropped below showing full on my bars, and I just watched my xp meter fill up, likeI was pumping gasinto my car.
I would like to stress that had it not been for having money/friends this would not have been possible at all. I do not feel that any drastic change needs to be taken. It is very hard as is for a casual player to advance in the skill, rapidly, and making it cost more experience is going to hurt them, not the power gamer.
We have been blessed/cursed with a system that allowed for some very spectacular buffs via music, dance, medicines or food/spices. If any change takes place, it needs to be with the effect of the buffs. Maybe a hard cap so that even with all the buffs you can get, you would still have to spend x amount of mind to produce an ID change.
I personally am for leaving the system as is. But if a change needs to be made, I would vote for a hard cap on the buffs. That way it can actually be tested against the cap and tweaked until it was just right. I am pretty sure the majority of food/spice buffing items are sold to the combat professions, for example "Tatooine Sunburns" which by themselves raise 2 major stats by about 1200 points each.
A combat character with Doc and Spice/Food buffs can become a very deadly killing machine,far exceeding any sort of limitations put on him by game mechanics, and then they are literally xp machines at those times. I do not want to bring up a debate about combat classes vs. non combat classes, but the buffs work the same for both and it is the introduction of the buffing system that has lead to a lot of perceived problems within the game.
Iam sure that the developers are going to be doing massivechanges to the entire system over the next few months, based upon what has happened to all the animals and CHs within the game. I just hope that the changes won't be too extreme as the casual gamer is the one who is going to suffer.
Sorry for rambling, especially since I was onlygoing to speak for a moment ...hehe. Anywho...that was my opinion and I know that many folks will have differing opinions. Thats actually how the wheels of change are ever started ya know, since unless there is a perceived problem, nothing is ever changed 
Durney Kova
BABE - Lowca
Master Entertainer / Master Musician / Master Image Designer / Novice Dancer / Novice Medic
"I need more skill points!" 
Kwee wrote:So, right now focus and willpower can be brought up to such heights that macro users do not even have to use pauses to allow mind to regenerate... What suggestions do you have for hindering the ability of someone to keep their mind regenerating at phenomenal rates (via high willpower), and having tiny mind costs per ID change (via high focus)?
n'Jessi wrote:[...] perhaps it might help in eliminating the phenomenon of the mind pool "catching up" completely after every change is made.
Actually, this phenomenon work towards our benefit. (us being people who don't want to see ID doable in a few hours) It limits the value of incredibly high buffs, because whenever the mind pool is full, regeneration is wasted. Rather than hindering regeneration, might it just be easier to hinder the effectiveness - by preventing super-buffed players from using their "infinite" mind pool completely?
That being said, what are people's thoughts about an Image Design delay? This would be counted from /imagedesign to /imagedesign, without regard to the selection process, so if your customer is indecisive you wouldn't even notice the timer. I'd say 15 seconds would be a good delay. Adding a delay to image designing will put a hard cap on spam-grinding. If a person can only do 4 changes per minute, there comes a point where more focus and willpower become wasted.The use of macros (used in a non-expoitative manner) should not be impeded
Using macros for custom makeovers would be slowed, but otherwise unaffected. A complete makeover macro (thats 27 changes on a Zabrak female) with a 15 second delay would take about 7 minutes. This, to me, is quite acceptible - less time than a shuttle, and a speed even a superspy could be proud of. (A makeup change macro would be 1-2 minutes)The progression of casual players (whether they be so b/c of inclination or playtime) should not be slowed down
Without going into complex details, this will have little or no effect on players that refrain from using macros and/or buffs.
Why 15 seconds?
The absolute best speed a person can manually complete an image design is about 3 seconds, and thats assuming that all the ID windows are positioned so that the buttons can be clicked in succession without moving the mouse. (This is the way I did my first few ID boxes) This is only useful for grinding purposes; real changes require some degree of manipulation (sliders or pallettes). Most of these changes take 10+ seconds (tested on myself, and I was also hitting "accept" immediately). Only on such things as eyeshadow or min/max adjustments would a person really get caught by the timer.
"Infinite" mind
With this 15 second delay, the fastest ID could be mastered is in 6 2/3hr (that's assuming a 250xp change 4 times each minute)
Again without going into complex details, some rebalancing of the way exp is given (including the point made by n'Jessi) could increase this to 9 hours or more - without the slightest effect on casual players.
Gelondil wrote:
without the slightest effect on casual players.
- Putting a cap on how often an ID change can go through is a thought that I've tinkered with often. I can think of two potential problems:
- Some players use makeup/hair macros in combination with clothing equipping macros to do an instant outfit change. Not really realistic, but a form of roleplay nevertheless.
- Many casual players do not make use of any type of buff and just do raw clicking on a friend or (even worse) themselves. A 15 second delay would make their torturous ID skill gain journey 5 times longer. And let's face it, there is probably nothing more boring toskill upthan ID
- n'Jessi's idea could certainly help, unfortunately manypeople have been using hairstyles, which use no mind
Note: While this is something that Rilawynplanned to include in her State of the Profession post, and it is certainly a concern many ID'ers have voiced recently, it is not something that has been brought to the dev's attention. That said, I'm sure they are more than aware that many if not all of their professions can be advanced in much faster than they originally intended. My purpose for this thread was only to collect ideas for how to limit the insane stat benefits in ID skill raising. I know not everyone thinks it is too fast, and that everyone thinks we need more content, especially after four plus months of tinkering with the same things some of us have done. Please stick to specific focus/willpower suggestions in this thread, and of course that can include how upcoming HAM changes might affect our profession. I would especially enjoy hearing more aboutthe HAM changes being discussedas I have to admit my eyes have glazed over threadscovering it
Lots of good ideas and thoughts, please keep them coming
Kwee wrote:
Peopleeither feel that:
- ID should not be able to be ground out inless than 24 (my arbitrarynumber)hours.
- It doesn't matter how fast ID is ground out.
Kwee, what is the proper etiquette for those of us in group 2? Should I avoid the thread?
However, believing Group 1 is in the majority, and seeing how we have been discussing this for so long, I wanted us to discuss what if's. Ifthe devswere ever to aim to raise the minimum time taken to master ID,how might it be done withoutaffecting those casual players not making use of spices and entertainer buffs? I only plan to have this discussion up for a week or so, and have suggestions at the ready should mastery speed be discussed on the correspondent forum. I don't personally feel thatmastery speed is one of our top issues, given some of the bugs and lack of content we are dealing with. But I may be wrong
Oops, to actually answer your question, I would say given the hypothetical situation of the devs getting ready to do something about this, what would you suggest that would target specifically the insane pumping up of focus and willpower without affecting other systems negativelly, and without hampering the progression of casual players?
JuJutsu wrote:
Kwee wrote:
Peopleeither feel that:
- ID should not be able to be ground out inless than 24 (my arbitrarynumber)hours.
- It doesn't matter how fast ID is ground out.
Kwee, what is the proper etiquette for those of us in group 2? Should I avoid the thread?
Some ideas:
A) Get rid of the ability to call /im;/imagedesignsetvalue in tandem within user defined macros. Maybe make it so the client keeps track of how frequently this combination is used; if it is used 4-5 times in a row, prevent it from working for another 5 minutes. Casual use is ok; in some cases, it is the only way to get rid of image bugs (for example, removing freckles on a zabrak that should not have freckles), but the primarily it is used to grind out image design.
B) Set a minimum mind cost per ability, that no amount of focus can reduce.
C) Add a focus debuff that slowly heals over time. Say, for example, set the focus to 1, and then let it gain back +25 to +50 points every second. Meditative focus kind of works this way.
D) Add a recast timer for image design abilies, similar to that used when healing players. This would slow down the rate of gain, regardless of how much focus or mind they have, and what sort of macro is being used. (Of course, if you are going to do this, I would request that the designee be able to preview changes just as easily as the designer, otherwise this could get very annoying when you have 5-6 customers lined up, and the first one wants to sample a dozen or more changes.)
Gelondil wrote:
Why 15 seconds?
The absolute best speed a person can manually complete an image design is about 3 seconds, and thats assuming that all the ID windows are positioned so that the buttons can be clicked in succession without moving the mouse. (This is the way I did my first few ID boxes) This is only useful for grinding purposes; real changes require some degree of manipulation (sliders or pallettes). Most of these changes take 10+ seconds (tested on myself, and I was also hitting "accept" immediately). Only on such things as eyeshadow or min/max adjustments would a person really get caught by the timer.
"Infinite" mind
With this 15 second delay, the fastest ID could be mastered is in 6 2/3hr (that's assuming a 250xp change 4 times each minute)
Again without going into complex details, some rebalancing of the way exp is given (including the point made by n'Jessi) could increase this to 9 hours or more - without the slightest effect on casual players.
I like the 15 seconds rule - because it does slow things down.I think, however, that in practice,it will favor the macroing even more than the current system already does. When you macro you can put in a set pause (i.e. 15 seconds). If you line up the boxes and click quickly, however, you'll get an error that says "you must wait.... before...." ARGH you say, and have to go through it again. So we slow down the macrogrinder, but we slow down the casual player more.
How does the no-mind hair bug fit into this equation? Are we assuming a system where this bug is fixed, or not? That will definitely have an impact on the proposed solution. Under my proposed system, hair changes would cost more like 30 mind for 25 xp, rather than the 6 mind that it cost when I was grinding (I seem to at least remember these changes taking some tiny bit of mind - does the no-mind bug only show up when using the text command?)
We're definitely on the right track here.