Image Designer Archive

Thread: ThunderHeart posted how to write a Community Vision document...

KeyTokikoMima
Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:48 am
#1

Right here:


http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=85333#M85333.


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Smuggler Revamp Community Vision Doc


Overview

1-2 Paragraphs about the vision of the smuggler profession. This is a short, concise overview and is a summary. The first paragraph should be a clear mission statement and the second should clearly state the vision of the final smuggler “vision”.


Salient Details


In one or two paragraphs, identify the key challenges, such as defining the essence of PvE and PvP smuggling in a virtual environment. Then list the elements of those details:

Smuggler / BH visibility
Bullet List
Bullet List


The Good and the Bad

Make a short list of what’s good and what’s bad, objectively stated. This is so we don’t throw away the baby with the bathwater. 2 lists with maybe a sentence or two for clarification.


Skill Tree Changes


Here is a list of the skill trees. We should make a list of bullet points of changes and/or activities for each tree. Don’t focus on the numbers; focus on the quintessential statement of the change.


Underworld: (example)

Goal Statement: 1 sentence.

Specialized Delivery missions that provide PvE encounters during the travel portion. These encounters can come in the form of direct combat, threatened combat in exchange for the smuggled item, or non-combat encounters seeking to bribe or convince the PC to give up the item.
Rewards
Immediate Travel Tokens
(This, for the record is extremely complicated)

Equipment buff programs
Datadiscs to further adventure
Ethical decisions that effect the smugglers reputation.
City and travel combat.
· PvP smuggling whereby a player can contract another player to take a shipment from point a to point b.

(Just as an example, this is a great statement of a single sentence that probably amounts to months of work by multiple teams. Some challenges are, “where do they take it from and to? How is it registered? How is it discovered? How do you prevent it from being exploited by a player with two accounts?” etc…)

Spices:

Goal Statement: 1 sentence.


· Redoing unused or superceded spices.

· Adding new spices.

Slicing:

Goal Statement: 1 sentence.


· Adding a vehicle durability slice.

Dirty Fighting: (example)

Goal Statement: 1 sentence.

· Increasing melee bonuses and abilities.

o Eye gouge: Melee blind attack.

o Trip: Melee Knockdown attack.


Details

Here, we should have a basic 1-2 sentence describing the focus that defines the key details of “the big picture”. Then list the details.

Update/fix Smuggler skill box descriptions
Bullet List
Bullet List


Pool of Wishlist Items

Finally, lets make a list of things to choose from so in the event that something in the core document turns out to be problematic, we have a list of things the devs can choose from as an alternative.

Bullet List
Bullet List
Bullet List


Notes:


Try to keep in mind how things work in the SWG environment. The farther away we get from what is existing, the more raw code there is. The more we use what is existing in new exciting ways, the more we can get into the revamp.
Be forewarned, we need to minimize new art assets so what we do ask for should be vital.
Please, no UI requests. That team is pretty much booked through space. I’m looking into any possibility of the ID window being re-used to some extent, but my guess is that slim left town.



Process:


1. The community should compose and have a majority endorsement of the plan. Kick around the ideas and then pull it together into a rough draft. I will lurk and pop in as needed. It’s helpful if there is one official correspondent thread. This way, SC can email me the link and I can drag it to my desktop.


2. Appoint some “devil’s advocates” to tear apart the plan and poke holes through it so we can firm it up and make it a better plan. Again, I will lurk and pop in as needed.


3. Smuggler_Caylin will take the rough draft and email it to me.


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This is for smugglers, true. But you could easily rework this into applying to any profession, as KStarfire pointed out in the thread I *cough* stolethisideafrom. Is this something the Devs would like to see from us, Kwee?
Kwee
Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:44 am
#2
No, since we just got our "revamp".


I'm busy enough working on revising FAQ's, revising my guide, writing up our new top 20 document, our new State of the Profession, and my quarterly report. Not to mention I have other things going on in the background and my Warcry responsibilities. I'm pretty close to burnt out honestly and won't be doing a single thing more than I have to




Kwee Glitterwing of Starsider
Ex Image Designer Correspondent ~ Elder Tailor
& Kwee-kwee ~ Master Image Designer
Gamer Girl Columnist ~ swg.warcry.com
Ivory & Topaz of TC ~ Elder Dancers, IDs, Musicians

Just_Bri
Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:51 am
#3




Kwee wrote:

No, since we just got our "revamp".




Honestly, I hope not. A new UI doesn't make for a solid revamp when there are still so many other issues with the profession. If we keep going down that road and we will end up like those poor Smugglers...



In fact, there are already similarities. We both need help from the player base to get to a point where we are useful. Us with our grinding, and them with their locked containers and then terminals.





____________________________________________________________
"V E E L A" S A I D - Retired Master Smuggler, cancelled 7/27/2005. SOE, think about every non-Jedi "cancelled" signature you've seen, and remember that there will be more as you forget the communities that makes this game's heart and soul. Entertainers, Crafters, Hybrids, Non-Jedi Combats, and Smugglers. When you are closing shop on SWG, remember that you ignored the REAL community to cater to an alpha class that assured this game would never be "balanced."

*Veela encourages you to adopt this sig
Serae
Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:34 am
#4




Just_Bri wrote:

A new UI doesn't make for a solid revamp






How about:


A new User Interface

A new Client interface

100's of new hair colors

100's of new eye colors

100's of new skin colors

New Tatoo colors

New fur colors

Lots of new colors in general

Hair color bug fixed

Eye angle added

Holo Emotes

Image designer tents (which are currently being decorated)

The ability to migrate someones stats in 10 minutes where it used to take days


Theres probably a lot more i missed.

It amazes me how some of you can trivialize what in my opinion one of the hardest working corespondents has accomplished for her profession and dismiss it with a wave of your hand.


Yes the image designer profession stillneeds a fewtweaks but from what i see/read Kwee and the devs know about them/are working on solutions and are not simply resting on their laurels.

Ciberbuddy
Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:39 am
#5
What about

Reduce all timers to half


Char Name: Saxifrage Russel
Syzygy-Gorath
Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:47 am
#6




Serae wrote:




Just_Bri wrote:

A new UI doesn't make for a solid revamp






How about:


A new User Interface

A new Client interface

100's of new hair colors

100's of new eye colors

100's of new skin colors

New Tatoo colors

New fur colors

Lots of new colors in general

Hair color bug fixed

Eye angle added

Holo Emotes

Image designer tents (which are currently being decorated)

The ability to migrate someones stats in 10 minutes where it used to take days


Theres probably a lot more i missed.

It amazes me how some of you can trivialize what in my opinion one of the hardest working corespondents has accomplished for her profession and dismiss it with a wave of your hand.


Yes the image designer profession stillneeds a fewtweaks but from what i see/read Kwee and the devs know about them/are working on solutions and are not simply resting on their laurels.



The vast majority of us have not and will not trivialize or disparage Kwee—quite the opposite. Our problem is that we were flat-out lied to by Runesabre (I'll go dig up the quotes again if you really want proof) and have found that, on the whole, the negatives far outweigh the positives of this "enhancement." We feel, and rightfully so, that we were sold down the river simply to further Runesabre's draconian views on forced socialization and to further the devs' reliance on timesinks as a replacement for content.


Many of the recent changes have made it quite clear that the current leadership of the SWG team feels it more worthwhile to make what little there is to do in-game take longer to complete, rather than adding new things to do and increasing the immersiveness of the environment. This is, to say the least, a troubling trend.






œ Slone Varnillian œ Eicia Obai œ Panda-Sy œ
Most of the universe's problems can be solved by the application of a brick to the side of the right head.
The problem is if you don't have a big enough brick or can't find the right head. The devil is in the details.
œ Galena Varnillian œ Ammon œ Gwrtheyrn œ

Serae
Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:21 am
#7

'The negatives far outweigh the positives'
Syzygy, you dont actually say what the negatives are so i'll take the liberty of assuming that you mean the timers and slow leveling.


I've already seen several reports from the fanfest where the devs admited that the experience gain needed to be looked into so at least thats an acknowledgment of the problem.



'Further the devs' relience on timesinks'

Or maybe timers were added so people couldn't master the image designer profession in under 2 hours thus trivialising the title 'master image designer' Theres always more than one way to look at things.


'As a replacement for content'


Correct me if im wrong but in a profession thats main purpose is to alter the way avatars look, wouldn't all the different colors added etc be classed as new 'content'? These alone must give vurtually thousands of different combinations of looks you can create.



'Runesabre's draconian views on forced socialisation'


Or to give it another name 'class interdependancy'


Again i'll assume that your talking stat migration as you don't specify, sorry if i'm wrong. How exactleywould you see image designers being 'needed' without something like this implimented? Or infact any class that is left out of the 'class interdependancy loop' Everyone likes to feel 'needed'



Im not attacking you here Syzygy, just offering a different perspective hopefully.


Regards





.



Message Edited by Serae on 06-09-2004 05:24 AM

Syzygy-Gorath
Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:10 am
#8




Serae wrote:


'The negatives far outweigh the positives'
Syzygy, you dont actually say what the negatives are so i'll take the liberty of assuming that you mean the timers and slow leveling.


I've already seen several reports from the fanfest where the devs admited that the experience gain needed to be looked into so at least thats an acknowledgment of the problem.



'Further the devs' relience on timesinks'

Or maybe timers were added so people couldn't master the image designer profession in under 2 hours thus trivialising the title 'master image designer' Theres always more than one way to look at things.


'As a replacement for content'


Correct me if im wrong but in a profession thats main purpose is to alter the way avatars look, wouldn't all the different colors added etc be classed as new 'content'? These alone must give vurtually thousands of different combinations of looks you can create.



'Runesabre's draconian views on forced socialisation'


Or to give it another name 'class interdependancy'


Again i'll assume that your talking stat migration as you don't specify, sorry if i'm wrong. How exactleywould you see image designers being 'needed' without something like this implimented? Or infact any class that is left out of the 'class interdependancy loop' Everyone likes to feel 'needed'



Im not attacking you here Syzygy, just offering a different perspective hopefully.


Regards



I apreciate the attempt at positivity, but I'll be honest, I've considered all of that, and I'm still not convinced. Let me be a bit more verbose:


'The negatives far outweigh the positives'


Yes, timers and slow XP gain are part of the negatives, and while they concern me to a great degree, they are not what I feel to be the largest negative. The largest negative is, in fact, stat migration. This "critical function" has wholly changed the tone of our profession, and has not only brought us into contact with terrible clients we'd otherwise never have seen, but has given cause for scorn and abuse to be heaped on our profession. The further emphasis placed on stat migrations via the XP gain boost is most troubling to me, as it further reinforces the idea that stat migrations is the end-all be-all of Image Design, and this is not and should not be the case.


'Further the devs' relience on timesinks'


I'm afraid timers are a cop out. There have been many other workable, less irritating suggestions for slowing leveling. However, ID is not the only thing which is being slowed down. In general, the most recent changes have gone further and further from adding interactive, mutable, immersive world to a continued static world in which what little content there is merely takes longer to complete.


'As a replacement for content'


Yes and no. That isn't exactly what I mean by content—the easiest way to explain it is to say this. In order for an environment to be immersive it must be mutable. Players must feel that their actions have some consequence in the game world, else they are simply observers and not functioning parts of the world. On the whole, we can do very little to influence the world in which we play. While in the strictest sense colors are content for us, they are not content in the sense of overall immersive play. This is really not an issue pertaining to Image Designers in specific, or even in general, merely an observation of the game as a whole.


'Runesabre's draconian views on forced socialisation'


There is a difference between enforced socialization and interprofessional dependencies. Armorsmiths rely on tailors for synthetic cloths and reinforced fiber planels, but an armorsmith never has to speak with a tailor—they can simply visit a vendor. Everyone relies on entertainers to heal their battle fatigue, but both the entertainers and the audience can be AFK during the entire process. We are, as far as I know of, the only profession in which there has been such a concerted effort to force socialization, and this is disturbing to me.


As far as wanting to be needed, I'll leave you with Bri's words: we don't want to be needed. We need to be wanted.



œ Slone Varnillian œ Eicia Obai œ Panda-Sy œ
Most of the universe's problems can be solved by the application of a brick to the side of the right head.
The problem is if you don't have a big enough brick or can't find the right head. The devil is in the details.
œ Galena Varnillian œ Ammon œ Gwrtheyrn œ

TarakAbolai
Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:23 am
#9

Serae wrote:

'The negatives far outweigh the positives'
Syzygy, you dont actually say what the negatives are so i'll take the liberty of assuming that you mean the timers and slow leveling.

I've already seen several reports from the fanfest where the devs admited that the experience gain needed to be looked into so at least thats an acknowledgment of the problem.

There's also the fact that Stat Migration's were so ungracefully forced upon us, causing a general feeling of loathing towards our profession and forcing people who didn't want our services to us them, which isn't good. And the fact that to "address" the exp issues, they decided to make Stat Migrations the primary source of exp after pub9, reinforcing the opinion that the devs are more concerned with giving us a critical function (read: Turning us into walking Stat Terminals) rather than enhancing the side of the profession that we signed up for, the image designing.

'Further the devs' relience on timesinks'
Or maybe timers were added so people couldn't master the image designer profession in under 2 hours thus trivialising the title 'master image designer' Theres always more than one way to look at things.

True, but there are other ways to de-trivialise our profession. Timers just make it painful, and are terrible design. How about only being able to get so many boxes in a 24 hour period? Or offering exp for running ID "quests" rather than forcing the novice ID to sit in a tent for hours on end, clicking ever 2 minutes, waiting, clicking, waiting, with no creativity, no involvement and ultimately lacking in the most important element of any computer game: Fun! This next comment may sound like a flame, but honestly, it's just curiousity. Have you tried levelling ID since the patch? If so, can you honestly say it was fun?

'As a replacement for content'

Correct me if im wrong but in a profession thats main purpose is to alter the way avatars look, wouldn't all the different colors added etc be classed as new 'content'? These alone must give vurtually thousands of different combinations of looks you can create.


Colours are a bit of a cop-out in terms of content, as they take little time to add and weren't what we asked for. They're an addition to existing content, not new content...I'd constitute new content as something that had to be modelled/extensively programmed - eg. hair styles. Not colours which most likely just involved extending the pallete size with code replicated from the old palletes (not much work considering that they were reprogramming the UI anyway).

'Runesabre's draconian views on forced socialisation'

Or to give it another name 'class interdependancy'

Again i'll assume that your talking stat migration as you don't specify, sorry if i'm wrong. How exactley would you see image designers being 'needed' without something like this implimented? Or infact any class that is left out of the 'class interdependancy loop' Everyone likes to feel 'needed'

Im not attacking you here Syzygy, just offering a different perspective hopefully.


There's a difference between class interdependacy" and "forced socialisation". A marksman is dependant on a weaponsmith, however, there is no forced socialisation. Does a marksman have to sit with a weaponsmith for 10 minutes to get his gun? No, more often than not he never even talks to the WS, just goes to his vendor. I get the impression that most Image Designers would rather be "wanted" than "needed". Those who "need" us come grudgingly, angry that they have to see us and pay for what was once free to them. I'd rather have 1 cheerful, poorly paying customer who wants a makeover than 10 angry, well-paying-because-i-set-a-price who need stats migrating, and I think many feel similarly.

A positive view is great, but I'd rather kick up a fuss until it's fixed
Just_Bri
Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:01 am
#10




Serae wrote:




Just_Bri wrote:

A new UI doesn't make for a solid revamp






How about:


A new User Interface

A new Client interface


{{{Yes, these are very nice, but I wouldn't list them seperatly.}}}


100's of new hair colors

100's of new eye colors

100's of new skin colors

New Tatoo colors

New fur colors

Lots of new colors in general


{{{All of this could have just been put into the last line. "Lot of new colors in general"}}}


Hair color bug fixed

Eye angle added


{{{Both of these are bug fixes. Nothing new here. This is the type of thing any profession would rightfully expect on an ongoing basis.}}}


Holo Emotes


{{{Mixed reaction from the player base about these. I won't further comment on it.}}}


Image designer tents (which are currently being decorated)


{{{These were put in solely to justify the following point...}}}


The ability to migrate someones stats in 10 minutes where it used to take days


{{{I HATE THIS WITH A PASSION! Not because we now have something solid that we can use for revinue, but for the half @$$ed way they implimented it.}}}



Theres probably a lot more i missed.


{{{No, there isn't.}}}


It amazes me how some of you can trivialize what in my opinion one of the hardest working corespondents has accomplished for her profession and dismiss it with a wave of your hand.


{{{What I said has nothing whatsoever to do with Kwee. Please do not jump to the conclusion that I do not appreciate Kwee. You would be incorrect.}}}


Yes the image designer profession stillneeds a fewtweaks but from what i see/read Kwee and the devs know about them/are working on solutions and are not simply resting on their laurels.



{{{Yes, Kwee has made the Devs aware of our issues, but they are showing no inclination to further develop our profession nor are they showing any inclination to revise some of the glaring problems with it that have existed since launch. The nuts and bolts behind what we do may not be horibly broken, but they are hardly in top-notch condition.}}}








____________________________________________________________
"V E E L A" S A I D - Retired Master Smuggler, cancelled 7/27/2005. SOE, think about every non-Jedi "cancelled" signature you've seen, and remember that there will be more as you forget the communities that makes this game's heart and soul. Entertainers, Crafters, Hybrids, Non-Jedi Combats, and Smugglers. When you are closing shop on SWG, remember that you ignored the REAL community to cater to an alpha class that assured this game would never be "balanced."

*Veela encourages you to adopt this sig
Serae
Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:58 am
#11
Please allow me to retort.





Everyone relies on entertainers to heal their battle fatigue, but both the entertainers and the audience can be AFK during the entire process. We are, as far as I know of, the only profession in which there has been such a concerted effort to force socialization, and this is disturbing to me.




All of the Entertainer professions are supposed to be 'social' its how they were intended and the fact that dancers/musicians can be AFK during the entire process is, in my humble opinion the largest flaw in their design. I cannot seem to get my head around why as an image designer you are disturbed by having to socialize?


The dancer and musician professions are pretty much in tatters due to afk macroers and are currently looking for ways to 'force socialisation' (read - make an at the keyboard entertainer more desirable than an AFK entertainer)


Be careful what you wish for.






-As far as wanting to be needed, I'll leave you with Bri's words: we don't want to be needed. We need to be wanted-


-The largest negative is, in fact, stat migration-


-Those who "need" us come grudgingly, angry that they have to see us and pay for what was once free to them-


-I HATE THIS WITH A PASSION! Not because we now have something solid that we can use for revinue, but for the half @$$ed way they implimented it-





Well i for one would rather spend ten minutes withan image designerand pay to get my stats altered than 3 or 4 days waiting with the old system. Im sure many players feel the same way, that should make you feel wanted yet it seems to me that stat migration is the biggest concern to most imagedesigners.


Also taking into consideration the ammount of players i see running around with the new hair/skin/eye/fur/tatoo colors (sorry Just_Bri if i upset your sensibilities by listing them all seperatly) then i would say again you ARE pretty much wanted as a profession. What exactley are the differences (apart from the obvious 2 minutes) of having to sit watching a dancer or musician for 8 minutes to get a mind buff or sitting 10 minutes with an image designer to get your stats altered? Both classes will be pretty tied up for the duration of the buff/migration, although ofcourse now most peoplewould ratheruse Brandy than sit watching a dancer who may or maynot be AFK.






What I said has nothing whatsoever to do with Kwee. Please do not jump to the conclusion that I do not appreciate Kwee. You would be incorrect





Trivialize and appreciate are two completley different things.


I did not jump to any conclusion, sayingand i quote: -A new UI doesn't make for a solid revamp- IS in my opinion trivializing the image designer makeover and the work that your correspondant put into it, simply because it was far more than a new UI.


Thankyou.


Syzygy-Gorath
Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:46 am
#12




Serae wrote:

Please allow me to retort.





Everyone relies on entertainers to heal their battle fatigue, but both the entertainers and the audience can be AFK during the entire process. We are, as far as I know of, the only profession in which there has been such a concerted effort to force socialization, and this is disturbing to me.




All of the Entertainer professions are supposed to be 'social' its how they were intended and the fact that dancers/musicians can be AFK during the entire process is, in my humble opinion the largest flaw in their design. I cannot seem to get my head around why as an image designer you are disturbed by having to socialize?


The dancer and musician professions are pretty much in tatters due to afk macroers and are currently looking for ways to 'force socialisation' (read - make an at the keyboard entertainer more desirable than an AFK entertainer)


Be careful what you wish for.


I agree that entertainer professions should not under any circumstances be AFKable…but the fact is they are. And even were they not, simply sitting in a cantina will lower your BF. Sitting in a med center will heal wounds. Granted, both do it very slowly, but there is still that underlying choice—do I want it to take forever? Or shall I interact and make it faster? With the new ID system there is no such option, and that's what I most object to. There is no issue of choice anymore, and that rankles me.




œ Slone Varnillian œ Eicia Obai œ Panda-Sy œ
Most of the universe's problems can be solved by the application of a brick to the side of the right head.
The problem is if you don't have a big enough brick or can't find the right head. The devil is in the details.
œ Galena Varnillian œ Ammon œ Gwrtheyrn œ

TarakAbolai
Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:49 am
#13
"I cannot seem to get my head around why as an image designer you are disturbed by having to socialize?"

You seem to miss the point slightly. I think it's not that we don't want to be forced to socialize. It's that we don't want those who don't want to socialise with us to be forced to, because in general they don't. Instead they go afk (often for longer than the 10minutes) leaving us alone for that time and if not that, they don't want to talk, they just want it over with. And unlike entertainers, if we get a client like this, we have a big UI in our way to stop us from being able to chat to our friends over /tells etc.

"Well i for one would rather spend ten minutes with an image designer and pay to get my stats altered than 3 or 4 days waiting with the old system. Im sure many players feel the same way, that should make you feel wanted yet it seems to me that stat migration is the biggest concern to most imagedesigners."

I'm sorry, it's a gross generalisation to think that just because you feel it's an improvement, most other people do too. Sure, some people do, but many others hate having to find us, hate having to pay us, have the dependancy they now have on us. Look around the forums, you'll see some of what we put up with. We feel wanted by those who appreciate the new system, but not by those who resent us for it. If they'd just left an extended self-migration system in, making our role in stat migration a luxury (after all, we're a luxury profession) we'd largely be happy, I think, because then only those who want us, not need us, will come. You really need to see how the difference between being wanted and needed is important to this profession.
And yes, some people want the new colours etc. but that's not the issue - we know there are many people who want us, we just don't want to have to deal with those who need us but resent that.

As for people around here trivializing Kwee, that's rubbish. Showing our discontent at many of the areas of the "revamp" (although even the devs called it and "enchancement" at the end) is not trivializing her work, because ultimately the final decision was not up to her, Kwee was the voice of the communitt, a voice which was largely ignored. From what I've seen, Kwee isn't happy with these changes either.
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