Image Designer Archive
Thread: Image Designer RIP-OFF
Youna wrote:
Tapa wrote:
So many colors it gets confusing.. but the point is in that 10 mins Im migrating your stats I could have done 4 janta missions (just hitting the poles) for 120K, I could have waited on my shuttle and traveled, or I could have fought a PVP battle, hopefully winning. Many things can be done in that 10 minutes, so I think charging 50K is VERY reasonable.
It only takes you 10 minutes to run and finish 4 Janta missions? That sounds like an over exaggeration to me. You might think it is only 10 minutes because time really flys by. But considering that you can only take 2 missions at a time and the amount of time spent driving back and forth between the mission terminals and the mission waypoints, it will take way more than 10 minutes to run and finish 4 Janta missions.
As forthe argumentthat it is taking so long to get to master ID, many of you IDers have already mastered the profession before the mini patch, where you were able to use your macro and master it in 2 hours. Very little time in investment, and absolutely zero costs in resources.
Also, you IDers are not the only one wasting your precious 10 minutes of your time being bored. We non-IDers are also investing and wasting our precious 10 minutes of our time, if not more, looking for an IDer initially and then waiting out the same 10 minutes as you do during the migration process.
We could have waited for our shuttles, we could have run missions, we could have done any other non-boring things just as you claim so. We used to be able to migrate our own stats, no matter how slow it was, at least we were able to do it ourselves. For you to tell us that you IDers are the only ones investing your precious 10 minutes to be bored to death and feel the need to be rewarded seems unjustified.
The playerbase has a legitimate reason to complain about the stat migration prices. Just like you IDers think that you have the legitimate reason behind the prices you are charging. Some players are rude, yes, but also many IDers are rude and greedy as well. It is those people on both sides that are making a huge negative impressions, making matters worse.
Devs, please restore the old way of migrating stats, so this kinda nonsense comes to an end.
Luti0n wrote:
We (ID'ers) can do as we please and don't have to do your migration if we don't want too so be careful how much you complain about our prices or you may be looking for a long-long time.
-Lution
It is this kind of attitude that ruins a community. You can do as you please? You are certainly giving a bad impression of the IDers right now. Please do not ruin their already-unfairly-tarnished image. Thank you.
Syzygy-Gorath wrote:
There is one very, very big difference between the time you've spent finding an ID and getting migrated and the time I spend migrating you—you're getting a beneficial service from me. Meanwhile, I'm sitting at my computer, staring at a blue UI, wishing to god Runesabre had never been born. The only benefit I get from doing migrations is credits, so yeah, I'm entitled to charge what my time is worth. And I've already gone through those calculations more than enough times. If you can't afford me, go find somebody else.
P.S. I had my stats migrated on TestCenter yesterday and I paid 20K for it. Keeping in mind that, on average, the TC economy is about half that of a Live server, that's a fair bit of change and you know what? Didn't bother me at all—because like I said, that's about what I make in 10 minutes, so I see no reason that the ID that had to stare at the UI to help me shouldn't make about the same for his ten minutes.
Players used to migrate their own stats before. They didn't need to have to find you to migrate their stats. They didn't have to spend time looking for you. They also sit in front of their monitor, staring at a blue UI just like you do. They didn't have to do that before. Do you see where I am coming from? It isn't all about you, the image designer. It is also about the people that need the stat migration, your customers too.
You make it seem like the IDers are the ones to suffer for doing this stat migration service. Actually the rest of the playerbase also suffer because of this. Yet, it just seems to sound like too much of "Me Me Me" attitude.
It doesn't matter how much you charge. What bothers is me is this constant arguments from many IDers that they can charge and do whatever they want because they believe that they are the only one who are suffering, having to wait out the boring 10 minutes staring at a blue Ui... or that they can charge whatever they want, because they now pretty much have a monopoly on something that is pretty important part of the game.
I am just hoping that you can try to understand from a customer's point of view.
Luti0n wrote:
From Youna:I
What macro? I mastered ID when SWG first came out. There was no macro and no spice/food to let me finish in 2 hours. It took me 3 weeks of steady play to master ID and then I still had to run missions out of bestine with my novice pistoleer skills to make enough credits to pay for my training.
Good for you. But that is you. Many others have mastered the profession the easy way. You are only one out of many many IDers across all galaxies.
You CHOOSE to migrate your stats, just like we CHOOSE to allow YOU to spend 10 minutes of our time so you can change them. You could live with your stats the way they are, nothings forcing you to use our service. The more you gripe about the cost and berate existing ID'ers for charging what they deem fair for stat migration, the harder it is going to be for you to find someone to do it for you because we'll all go private and only work for our guildies or give up the skill. Then what are you going to do? Grind to novice ID yourself? Go for it if 15k is too much for you.
I have never once said anywhere that 15k is too much. I have never even said that you IDers are charging too much. What I am trying to tell you is that your attitude is so much about spending 10 minutes of your time, but not much about the people who need the migration done, spending their share of time looking and getting a service that they used to be able to do by themselves. It is not all about you.
And if that hypothetical day comes, then that's the day IDers lose the sole ability to do stat migration. Do you really think that the playerbase won't whine enough about it to have the devs change the system by then? And do you know who will lose out in the end? Image designers more than the customers. So before you give me a warning with your hypothetical example, be aware that many business practices done by IDers right now might eventually result in losing out the sole ability to migrate stats, thus losing your content and your good money maker.
And what pray tell is your profession and how many credits are you sitting on? If I hadn't dedicated my lots to mining operations I'd be lucky to have a 100k in credits from my ID work pre-update. It costs us credits for our homes, travelling, etc. just like it does you.
Like I said, I am not saying you should provide your services for free. I am not saying you are charging too much. Never said any of these things. I just sense a major change of tone from the ID community, thereby giving a false impression to many people that you are price gouging. Which is truly sad.
Leave it alone and let the markets settle. Once the Jedi grind goesaway, so does the majority of the need for this service.
That is true. Since there will be no need to change professions with the disappearance of holo grind, once everyone settles in with their professions, stat migration won't be sought after too often.
Youna wrote:
Syzygy-Gorath wrote:
There is one very, very big difference between the time you've spent finding an ID and getting migrated and the time I spend migrating you—you're getting a beneficial service from me. Meanwhile, I'm sitting at my computer, staring at a blue UI, wishing to god Runesabre had never been born. The only benefit I get from doing migrations is credits, so yeah, I'm entitled to charge what my time is worth. And I've already gone through those calculations more than enough times. If you can't afford me, go find somebody else.
P.S. I had my stats migrated on TestCenter yesterday and I paid 20K for it. Keeping in mind that, on average, the TC economy is about half that of a Live server, that's a fair bit of change and you know what? Didn't bother me at all—because like I said, that's about what I make in 10 minutes, so I see no reason that the ID that had to stare at the UI to help me shouldn't make about the same for his ten minutes.
Players used to migrate their own stats before. They didn't need to have to find you to migrate their stats. They didn't have to spend time looking for you. They also sit in front of their monitor, staring at a blue UI just like you do. They didn't have to do that before. Do you see where I am coming from? It isn't all about you, the image designer. It is also about the people that need the stat migration, your customers too.
You make it seem like the IDers are the ones to suffer for doing this stat migration service. Actually the rest of the playerbase also suffer because of this. Yet, it just seems to sound like too much of "Me Me Me" attitude.
It doesn't matter how much you charge. What bothers is me is this constant arguments from many IDers that they can charge and do whatever they want because they believe that they are the only one who are suffering, having to wait out the boring 10 minutes staring at a blue Ui... or that they can charge whatever they want, because they now pretty much have a monopoly on something that is pretty important part of the game.
I am just hoping that you can try to understand from a customer's point of view.
Great. Just remember that people, human beings,are inherently selfish. That's true of everyone except possibly Mother Teresa, and even then I doubt she was perfectly unselfish all the time. She was human, after all.
I can see what you're saying, and I empathize with my customers, but I look at it from a perspective of'I play a profession that is now hideously boring and a huge pain, and if I'm expected to do anything involving more boredom or pain, I am going to charge for it.' Because I don't particular care for money, having no house, and mostly walking if I must travel I can save up quite a bit from just a few sales. Credits are the easiest form of payment, but I insist on conversation.
And my customers come to me, and ask me if I would be willing to migrate their stats. It's a service I do for them, and if it's terribly inconvenient for them to stick around in one place, then they need to talk to the Devs because there's nothing I can do but feel sorry for them.
Bottomline: This Migration change is not going away, and the faster you suck it up and get used to it, the happier you will be in the end.
It is great that IDers have some important purpose in the game now. I am happy to see that. But it is terrible to see many IDers' attitudes change overnight as I have witnessed across the galaxies.
Before this mini patch went live, when someone wanted a makeover to their character, didn't you all use to put up way much more time than 10 minutes? I didn't see anyone arguing so much, so viciously about valuing their time and such It was all about fun and making people and yourself happy. Stat migration doesn't even involve the intricacy and the effort put into changing someone's appearance at all. It is a very simple process, involving no effort besides time, which every image designing process is involved with.
The intricacy and the effort is the fun part!! I would much rather do that than sit there and put no effort forward.
Like they say: It's not the fall that bothers you, it's the sudden stop at the end. It's not the button clicks that kill Image Design, it's the 10 minute waitin between them.
Of course, one can only assume that IDers are now trying to cash in as much as possible because they now have a monopoly on stat migration, which is much more vital part of the game than simple makeovers. Thus, we start to see all these arguments about being bored to death for those 10 minutes, or losing the opportunity to make much more credits by running missions, and etc. I didn't see so many IDers back then arguing this same thing so ademently while spending much more than 10 minutes giving someone a makeover with even less profit. So I ask... why now?
Because doing thingsthe old way as actually visually accomplising something.. it was interacting on a person to person on a level that sitting around for 10 minutes in a tent is not. This is enforced socialization by proximity, and it doesn't work. Doing something fun is always easier to charge less for than something not fun.
Before it was all about having fun. Now you make it sound like being an ID is painful, boring, and a time that could have been spent better running missions. All to justify your new pricing in providing stat migration..... Thus why I am saying that I have sensed a tremendous change in tone from the ID community.
True! This is a big shift for us. Drugery has been injected into a formerly non-drugery profession. We and the playerbase we serve are dealing with it. I sometimes wonder if this isn't a social experiment by the Developers.
Youna wrote:
Players used to migrate their own stats before. They didn't need to have to find you to migrate their stats. They didn't have to spend time looking for you. They also sit in front of their monitor, staring at a blue UI just like you do. They didn't have to do that before. Do you see where I am coming from? It isn't all about you, the image designer. It is also about the people that need the stat migration, your customers too.
You're right, they didn't. But again, while they are sadled with a hardship they did not previously face, they are also receiving a tangible benefit from the interaction—I am not. It may frustrate you to be forced to look for an ID, but at the end of that search and interaction you have something intrisic to show for it—in the case of my migration, I can now don my composite unbuffed. That, to me, is worth the search. The ID that helped me by migrating my stats, on the other hand, received no intrinsic benefit in our echange. To account for that I compensated him with an amount that I could have made in that time. That, to me, is only fair. I hold others to that standard, and I hold myself to it.
You make it seem like the IDers are the ones to suffer for doing this stat migration service. Actually the rest of the playerbase also suffer because of this. Yet, it just seems to sound like too much of "Me Me Me" attitude.
Again, we both suffer under the new system—however, you recieve an inherent benefit. I do not. For that reason I must advocate for myself, otherwise I will truly receive nothing.
It doesn't matter how much you charge. What bothers is me is this constant arguments from many IDers that they can charge and do whatever they want because they believe that they are the only one who are suffering, having to wait out the boring 10 minutes staring at a blue Ui... or that they can charge whatever they want, because they now pretty much have a monopoly on something that is pretty important part of the game.
It has nothing to do with suffering. The argument that we're suffering is a counterpoint to the "it should be free because it's a PitA to find an ID, and it used to be free" mentality. It is the other side of the same argument you yourself are now voicing. We both suffer. Only one of us benefits—how do we equalize the interaction? We chanrge.
I am just hoping that you can try to understand from a customer's point of view.
I do. That's why I mentioned that I had my stats migrated and paid well for the service. In the time that Ispent between setting my stats to be migrated and finally finding an ID to migrate them I could have used to old system three times over—did I let that embitter me to the process and take it out on the ID that ended up helping me? Quite the opposite.
It is great that IDers have some important purpose in the game now. I am happy to see that. But it is terrible to see many IDers' attitudes change overnight as I have witnessed across the galaxies.
Our attitudes haven't changed. Most of us still wantthe same thing we always wanted—to make people look and feel better. What's changed is our clientele. We are now forced to interact with people that neither want nor value our help, and treat us in a manner that clearly displays that—what you now see is the backlash to that mistreatment from people we would otherwise not have come into contact with.
Before this mini patch went live, when someone wanted a makeover to their character, didn't you all use to put up way much more time than 10 minutes? I didn't see anyone arguing so much, so viciously about valuing their time and such It was all about fun and making people and yourself happy. Stat migration doesn't even involve the intricacy and the effort put into changing someone's appearance at all. It is a very simple process, involving no effort besides time, which every image designing process is involved with.
Exactly. It was fun. It was interactive. It was what we got into this profession to do. Stat migration, for the most part, is not fun. It is not interactive. It is not what we got into the profession to do. What does that leave us with in terms of something to show for our time? Before we had satisfaction…now we don't. All we have is credits.
Of course, one can only assume that IDers are now trying to cash in as much as possible because they now have a monopoly on stat migration, which is much more vital part of the game than simple makeovers. Thus, we start to see all these arguments about being bored to death for those 10 minutes, or losing the opportunity to make much more credits by running missions, and etc. I didn't see so many IDers back then arguing this same thing so ademently while spending much more than 10 minutes giving someone a makeover with even less profit. So I ask... why now?
For the same reasons I listed in the last paragraph. Because it's not what we want to be doing. If I'm expected to do something I have little to no interest in, I expect to be compensated apropriately. If you want a full body makeover I'll spend half an hour to an hour with you getting it just right and I won't set a price—tip whatever you want. But ask me to sit in place for 10 minutes waiting for a timer to tick down while you AFK, and damn right I'm going to set a price.
Before it was all about having fun. Now you make it sound like being an ID is painful, boring, and a time that could have been spent better running missions. All to justify your new pricing in providing stat migration..... Thus why I am saying that I have sensed a tremendous change in tone from the ID community.
See above. Before it was fun. Stat migration is not. That makes all the difference in the world. Like I said—you want a full body makeover? No problem! Pay whatever you want, take as long as you want. But you want just a migration? Cash on the barrelhead, as JuJutsu said.
That would be the happiest day of my life. I don't think anyone got into ID for the money—and if they did they're not very bright. WSes make money. ASes make money. Combat classes make money. IDs make pretty. And as far as I'm concerned, that's how it should be.
Youna wrote:
Luti0n wrote:
From Youna:I
You CHOOSE to migrate your stats, just like we CHOOSE to allow YOU to spend 10 minutes of our time so you can change them. You could live with your stats the way they are, nothings forcing you to use our service. The more you gripe about the cost and berate existing ID'ers for charging what they deem fair for stat migration, the harder it is going to be for you to find someone to do it for you because we'll all go private and only work for our guildies or give up the skill. Then what are you going to do? Grind to novice ID yourself? Go for it if 15k is too much for you.
I have never once said anywhere that 15k is too much. I have never even said that you IDers are charging too much. What I am trying to tell you is that your attitude is so much about spending 10 minutes of your time, but not much about the people who need the migration done, spending their share of time looking and getting a service that they used to be able to do by themselves. It is not all about you.
And if that hypothetical day comes, then that's the day IDers lose the sole ability to do stat migration. Do you really think that the playerbase won't whine enough about it to have the devs change the system by then? And do you know who will lose out in the end? Image designers more than the customers. So before you give me a warning with your hypothetical example, be aware that many business practices done by IDers right now might eventually result in losing out the sole ability to migrate stats, thus losing your content and your good money maker.
Youna wrote:
Before this mini patch went live, when someone wanted a makeover to their character, didn't you all use to put up way much more time than 10 minutes? I didn't see anyone arguing so much, so viciously about valuing their time and such It was all about fun and making people and yourself happy. Stat migration doesn't even involve the intricacy and the effort put into changing someone's appearance at all. It is a very simple process, involving no effort besides time, which every image designing process is involved with.Of course, one can only assume that IDers are now trying to cash in as much as possible because they now have a monopoly on stat migration, which is much more vital part of the game than simple makeovers. Thus, we start to see all these arguments about being bored to death for those 10 minutes, or losing the opportunity to make much more credits by running missions, and etc. I didn't see so many IDers back then arguing this same thing so ademently while spending much more than 10 minutes giving someone a makeover with even less profit. So I ask... why now?Before it was all about having fun. Now you make it sound like being an ID is painful, boring, and a time that could have been spent better running missions. All to justify your new pricing in providing stat migration..... Thus why I am saying that I have sensed a tremendous change in tone from the ID community.
I don't think you quite understand how much you contradict yourself here. "It was all about fun and making people and yourself happy" - exactly....but Stat Migration ISN'T fun. It's boring. It's 10 minutes of my life that could be spent on something fun. The reason no one kicked up a fuss about makeovers is because that's what we chose this profession to do! We get to be creative and enjoy ourselves in those 10 minutes, we get to have conversations with clients, work out how they want to look. For a stat migration we sit there. Bored. It's not just about time, it's about time that could be spend doing something better, like hunting or giving someone a makeover, something that would be fun. For a lot of IDs, the prices are there to stop someone having a stat migration from them. If you can afford what my time's worth, you can have the migration, if you can't then I'll go enjoy those 10 minutes. Of course, for most this isn't the be all and end all, friendly people or those who can't afford it often get freebies or discounts from me, but in general, it takes a lot for me to give up my time.
"Before it was all about having fun. Now you make it sound like being an ID is painful, boring, and a time that could have been spent better running missions."
CONGRATULATIONS! You understand?! It IS painful and boring! We sit around doing nothing for 10 minutes, customer after customer. You realised that 6 customers will take me an hour at best. You want to try sitting around doing nothing for an hour? No, then don't critise us for demanding a lot to do so.