Image Designer Archive

---

SWG-Runesabre wrote:

We knew we needed to limit how often Stats could be migrated because we didn't want people changing their stats instantly whenever and whereever they wanted.

---

---

SWG-Runesabre wrote:

In my6 years as an MMO developer I've seen the extremes players will go to in trying to avoid interacting with other players. In many cases, it is these same self-sufficient players that later quit because they got bored with the game. If you ask any veteran gamer of an MMO as to why they still play their chosen game after many months (or even years!) invariably the answer is "because of the people I know in the game and play with".

---

I really hope you take this in the spirit in which it was written - I honestly think you guys forget about players who play for these reasons sometimes, and aren't just here for virtual chit-chat. That can be nice and all, when you feel like it - but for it to be the driving force of the game is just going to drive people away.

---

AudioOrgana wrote:

---

SWG-Runesabre wrote:

We knew we needed to limit how often Stats could be migrated because we didn't want people changing their stats instantly whenever and whereever they wanted.

---

And this is the key that you guys have seemed to ignore - it already took DAYS to do a major stat change in the old system.

It was far from instant, and now instead of days it takes 10 minutes.

I have to say that the elimination of the old system just to give ID's something "essential" to do is one of the most disapointing decisions I've seen yet in SWG.

As hundreds of people have said, if you wanted to give ID's EXTRA benefits, that is great - but to totally eliminate personal stat migration (hell, as we've said, make it take even LONGER than it does now) is a huge mistake.

Why ruin what was one of the most dynamic, realistic systems in the game?

AO

---

I usually agree with your posts, Audio, but your stance on this has me confused. If you are against this change purely on principle (an ability every player has should never, ever be removed), I can understand it. It's a little unrealistic given the nature of the game, but I would understand your position.

But if we get past the principle and look at the reality of the change, look at what you just said. It used to take days, now it takes 10 minutes. Isn't that a good thing? You do go to the major cities once in a while, right? You stop by the ID tent, chat for 10 minutes (granted that can and hopefully will be reduced a tad), and you are done! Isn't that better of than waiting for days? Heck, I go to Theed or Coronet every day to get buffed. Sometimes both! Waiting in line for the buff in Coronet can easily take 10 minutes, not to mention the wait for the shuttle after.

Do you truly believe that an ID will be that hard to find? If that is so, go to the ID forum and write down the names of some of the IDs on your server. Make them your friends and start the tells! You've got to get a hit before the 2 days it would have taken you to migrate the old way.

I can't believe you are this set against player interaction. I'm also puzzled why you would call a couple of clicks and waiting for days "dynamic" and "realistic".

One last question for you, since you have made me really really curious. About how often do you migrate your stats???

---

AudioOrgana wrote:

---

SWG-Runesabre wrote:

In my6 years as an MMO developer I've seen the extremes players will go to in trying to avoid interacting with other players. In many cases, it is these same self-sufficient players that later quit because they got bored with the game. If you ask any veteran gamer of an MMO as to why they still play their chosen game after many months (or even years!) invariably the answer is "because of the people I know in the game and play with".

---

I don't think you will find this the case here.

Most people are here for STAR WARS, plain and simple.

I guess I really just disagree with this whole line of thinking. If I just wanted to chat with people and interact I'd be over at Yahoo! Chat - it's free. I am here to play a dynamic, exciting game in the company of other people,not with them being my only life-line to having fun or getting something done in-galaxy.

I think it's very telling that you say that self-sufficent behavior is human nature - why try to go against human nature? Why frustrate people by force-feeding them something that is against their nature as a species and obviously not desired? This isn't social reconditioning, it's a video game.

If your goal is to create a virtual chat room with a game around it, then I guess this is the way to go and eventually when we can't even secure trade with someone without being a merchant I have a feeling those few that would be left in such a game won't be caring much about stat migration. /shrug

If you are trying to create an exciting, dynamic game that has the added benefit of being able to be played with other people (which I think most players want) you really need to start weighing the issues with a little moreconcern for how people actually play SWG.

This is the heart of the matter - most people see the social aspects as an addition to the game, not the game itself.

Perhaps people played EQ or UO in the old days (you know, half a decade ago) just to interact with people - but I think you will find the vast majority of people who play Star Wars are here for the Star Wars experience and the game itself first - any social benefit is ancillary.

I can be very social in and out of SWG on my own, without being forced to do so, but I can't play a massive, persistentonline game in the Star Wars universe without SWG. Personally I am looking for SOE to fill the latter role - I think players already have the former under control.

I am sure just as many people have quit out of frustration at being at the mercy of another player's whims (between CTD, LD, different time zones,different real world enviornments - kids, etc.) every time they play the game than we simply "bored" because they didn't talk to anyone.

I really hope you take this in the spirit in which it was written - I honestly think you guys forget about players who play for these reasons sometimes, and aren't just here for virtual chit-chat. That can be nice and all, when you feel like it - but for it to be the driving force of the game is just going to drive people away.

AO

---

i would like to say: DITTTTTTTOOOOOOOO!!!!!

i agree with what you said 1000%.

i come to SWG to be solo when i feel like it and socialize when i feel like it. when i am FORCED or even if i have a perception of being forced to do something i automatically resent that effort. the main reason i beta'd EQ and never bought the game was the forced gameplay mentality that exists in EQ. to do anything beyound killing a simple rat you have to group with 6 dozen people.

i played UO for 7 years because i could go and solo that hard stuff and group when i wanted to but as soon as the game became forced grouping i quit and moved over to SWG. it will be a VERY sad day if SWG decides to force grouping to do anything in the game.

now on the other foot i dont mind finding other people to get the things i need its kind of fun. what isnt fun is the perception of being FORCED to do it. i am against the stat migration idea as how it is now. they should have left the ability available to anyone and gave the ID folks the ability to do it in 10 minutes. that perk alone would have people flocking to ID to avoid the massive wait to do it the slow way. its just human nature.

but couple the massive grind time ID have now 60+ straight hours compaired to the 14 needed to master weaponsmith and we approach insanity in grinding. who wants to be a ID when you have to grind for 60+ hours. not even bounty hunters at the worst of their grind took that much time. in the time it takes to master ID one can master merchant then 3 more crafting professions. or 5 crafting professions. or bounty hunter 3 times and a good start on #4.

in that time one can possibly achieve jedi guardian and at the least jedi knight.

withthe shrinking ID population if these changes to the XP over time is kept there will only be a few ID per server left in a profession that is already more rare to find than a jedi.

ok ill stop ranting. but i cant stand being forced to do something.

---

Deckard_the_Smuggler wrote:

Barb Said...

"i come to SWG to be solo when i feel like it and socialize when i feel like it."

So get your stats migrated when you're in your "I wanna socialize mood", and don't when you're in your "I wanna solo mood."

Easy fix.

---

---

jfang wrote:

I wanted to post that I appreciate and approve of the transparency of the devs in describing the reasoning behind their decisions, and hope they continue to do this.SOEis taking a large risk by exposingits decision making processes (and saying candid things like "due to time constraints, we did not look at adding a perk for master image designers"), which I am not convinced everybody here realizes.

Those who are critizing Runesaber whenhe or she isbeing evasive, or does not answer a specific question (for political reasons, or because they really don't know) are not helping and encouraging this behavior. I think it is enough for the devs to answer what they can. I foronewould prefer half an answer to a two-part question than no answer at all. I also think this is a good thing to do, as explaining of the reasoning behind decisions will hopefully allow the player base to provide better suggestions on to how to improve the game, as well as challenge assumptions which the developers might have made.

Thank you for the information, Runesaber.I like to hear the reasoning behind the decisions made (even when I don't agree with them), I appreciate the time and risk SOE is taking to discuss the decisions and vision for the class, and hope that you and the other devs continue this kind of corresponance with the general forum in the future (as opposed to just with the correspondents behind closed doors).

Not everybody is looking at your posts with cynicism and criticism...

---

I hate to do this, but it seems like the right place at the right time. I consider myself a casual player. Being that, I suspected that in three-five months time after the game went live, I would have done enough work to Master a profession. Now I'm sitting on close to a year on the same server and have not one single professions. I find the very notion that someone would want to further reduce the time it takes to gather XP preposterous. I've started a new character on Starsider. I spend a bit of time each time I log on to RP for some time or visit some sites and take a few missions. I consider this casual play. I play for 2-4 hours a night and since February, I am up to 3232 Scout and 3433 marksman. My goal is to be a NOVICE Bounty Hunter by the end of summer and the beginning of SE. I hope to be there before the end of June, but if the XP rate is changed for the worse drastically, I'll have left SWG behind long before I could possibly spend enough time to master BH. I don't expect to master this profession in a month or three, I just expect to make some REAL progress in terms of skills and perks for the professions that I have chosen. I think that the metric for casual players leveling into a master level hybrid profession should be based on actual casual play and not average play. What is sounds like just from what little I have read in these posts is that you are catering to the flighty folks and trying to get them to stay interested all the while loosing the interest of folks like me that would like to make some sort of progress, but have neither the time nor the patience to "grind." It just seems that you, RS, seem to be making this game be on par with the (forgive me for this transgression) L337 d3wd5 level and time of play. I personally would like to see myself master a skill box a week per profession that I am working on. So for me to master, say Marksman, it would take 16 weeks, or four months. I may be on par with this in the amount of time that it will take me to complete 4444 marksman, but scout will be far longer. On eclipse, I have been playing Carbineer/Medic/ Creature Handler. I have nearly mastered medic in six month, but If I returned to my regular play schedule on eclipse, it would takeme at the very least until the end of the year to master either Carbineer or CH but not both. But if I were one of these grinding fools, I could have mastered every profession by the time that it would normally take a casual player to master one, using myself as a metric. That’s offmy chest now, and I hope you take some time to read this, and at least prove my points invalid or tell me a good reason why, RS

/rant off

/bow4

And I appoligize to the IDs for using their space to rant, I really do! Spelling corrected in EDIT

Message Edited by DarthHossith on 05-12-2004 05:24 PM

---

Aucob wrote:

But if we get past the principle and look at the reality of the change, look at what you just said. It used to take days, now it takes 10 minutes. Isn't that a good thing? You do go to the major cities once in a while, right? You stop by the ID tent, chat for 10 minutes (granted that can and hopefully will be reduced a tad), and you are done! Isn't that better of than waiting for days? Heck, I go to Theed or Coronet every day to get buffed. Sometimes both! Waiting in line for the buff in Coronet can easily take 10 minutes, not to mention the wait for the shuttle after.

Yes, adding this feature to ID's is a GREAT thing - added ON to the existing system, not replacing it.

ID's should be when you need that quick fix, and seeking one out and spending 10 minutes is not too much to ask at all when you want a stat migration ASAP for whatever reason.

Do you truly believe that an ID will be that hard to find? If that is so, go to the ID forum and write down the names of some of the IDs on your server. Make them your friends and start the tells! You've got to get a hit before the 2 days it would have taken you to migrate the old way.

This isn't the point - I never have said it will be hard to find an ID. That's other people - and they may or may not be right.

When I want an instant, drive-through style "Yeah, give me +100 STR, -50 Mind, -50 Action" I will have no problem finding an ID.

I can't believe you are this set against player interaction.

I am not "this set" against it. I just disagree that it is the driving force behind the game. My reasons for not liking the stat-migration issue in particular are less about player interaction and more about the mini-game of stat migration, but Runesabre brought up some thoughts that are just very different from the ones I hold and relate to many of the complaints others have expressed in this thread.

I'm also puzzled why you would call a couple of clicks and waiting for days "dynamic" and "realistic".

This is the core of the issue - for many of us, it was a very fun mini-game. It was dynamic because you could adjust as you play, experimenting and figuring as youwent. Now, this would have been bad if it was instant - but since stat migration is(was ) such a slow process you could use the stat migration screen as sort of a "HAM plan" - adjusting every single stat until you got the "perfect" combination (which usually isn't a round number).

It was dynamic because it wasn't a one-time choice - you just seem to think of stat migration as something different than I do. It wasn't about, "click click wait", it was about "click...wait a day...see...click again...wait...click back...optimize...new variable (armor/weapon)...rinse...repeat." It wasn't about a singular numerical goal but an on-going, never-ending process. One of the very few ways to be truly unique in SWG aside from avatar customization.

Now it's got to be done with fast-foodmentality. You have to order up a full meal by number and hope it's what you want. This is also what made it realistic - if you wanted to get smarter at the expense of your physical stamina in real life, it would take some time. This point is pretty irrelevant, since as we know reality is the last in the line of "checks" in MMO's, way after game play and everything else, but nonethless it was an added bit of realism that was fun. Many of us treated it like a mini-game, and it's to me one of the coolest features of SWG.

I actually liked that it wasn't instant, but I recognize the need for some players to have that. The old system wasn't satisfactory to some people because they wanted it "now" - and this change gives them that. This is all awesome - except for the fact that my prefered way is gone.

One last question for you, since you have made me really really curious. About how often do you migrate your stats???

This is the point of the mini-game, it never ends. When I am in combat mode (I tend to craft for a week, combat for a week, back and forth) I play with my stat migration at least once every play session. Many times I don't commit a change, I just want to see what it would look like according to the numbers if I did make a major change. I'd say that about every three or four days I make minor adjustments and commit them.

This was the beauty of the old system - and where it was dynamic. It wasn't about a "goal", it was about "evolving".

Now, stat migration is a "thing" and not a "process".

It's just something I have enjoyed since beta, and if it weren't for the fact that most people rely so heavily on Doctor buffs it would be something many more people might enjoy.

Again, I think it's great to give IDers this new function - and even I would use one when I bought a new suit of armor minutes before going up in the Corvette, or some other time-sensitive reason. But I don't see the need to take the "old" way out of the game, especially since the ID version has it's own intrinsic value in speed.

I don't think keeping personal stat migration would hurt IDers at all - people who want a quick fix would go either way. People like me, however, have just lost a really fun mini-game (and one of the reasons I don't mind waiting at Starports...).

Some of us are number geeks and get off on the optimization and micromanagment of systems, and this was a greatpart of SWG thatwe will sorely miss.

AO

---

a) Why was this decision made?
b) Would you consider slowing down the current method of doing stat migration (a frequently voiced suggestion) to increase incentive to visit an ID instead of removing it completely?