Image Designer Archive
Thread: A rant on ID's from a non-ID
Page 4 of 4
Kohl777
Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:36 am
#40
I would like to clarify myself here.
I said I condoned offering an unwanted change in ONE situation...the customer's refusal to pay an agreed on price. I would also like to say, the change I said I condoned is not one that could be overlooked, and I said to tell the customer exactly what you were doing.
I also advocated a change that is EASY to fix, involving only one slider, and not dealing with the persons face in any way. I would never advocate changing non-visible features for revenge....your weight is always visible.
To sum up: I do NOT advocate changing features that are invisible due to wearing armor, or the armor bug. I have never said that I do. I have to say I think its justified and ironically appropriate to force a customer to either accept their stat migration with a massive weight change, or to cancel it and have their time wasted like they wasted mine. In my eyes, that becomes a consensual change, because they make that decision on their own.
If that makes me a bad person, so be it.
-Sirix
I said I condoned offering an unwanted change in ONE situation...the customer's refusal to pay an agreed on price. I would also like to say, the change I said I condoned is not one that could be overlooked, and I said to tell the customer exactly what you were doing.
I also advocated a change that is EASY to fix, involving only one slider, and not dealing with the persons face in any way. I would never advocate changing non-visible features for revenge....your weight is always visible.
To sum up: I do NOT advocate changing features that are invisible due to wearing armor, or the armor bug. I have never said that I do. I have to say I think its justified and ironically appropriate to force a customer to either accept their stat migration with a massive weight change, or to cancel it and have their time wasted like they wasted mine. In my eyes, that becomes a consensual change, because they make that decision on their own.
If that makes me a bad person, so be it.
-Sirix
Syzygy-Gorath
Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:53 am
#41
SakeO wrote:
By disagreeing with the original posters call for added checkboxes, I am in no way condoning the act of the person who victimized her or saying she deserved the grief she suffered. I feel bad for her and would have corrected them for free ifI happened upon someone in such a circumstance but, I truly believe the UI change suggested would be an unecessary waste of time that would likely lead to more problems than it would solve. Spend that dev time on the display bug and realize there are griefers all through this game that we need to watch out for.
As much as I hate to say it, we have to recognize that 8.1 irrevocably changed our profession. Our UIs, both past and present, were designed with our aesthetic abilities in mind. These are no longer the sum of our abilities. Further, when our "critical function" was added, it was done in such a way as to be a secondary focus of the UI, displaying to the customer as a yes/no boolean, as if an afterthought. We need to recognize that in some, if not many, cases this "critical function" is the primary purpose of our interactions and our UI, and we must see to it that this is reflected.
While I did suggest checkboxes in another thread, there are other ways to accomodate the same safeguards for the client without them. Another set of boolean displays listing "Cosmetic Change: Yes/No" and "Body Change: Yes/No" would work just as well to provide the customer an added safeguard. And I do believe these safeguards are warranted, maybe even necessary. I've watched the changes in this community both on the forums and on the servers, and I can't say I'm impressed by them. Where once we were a caring, conscientious, ethical profession, we are now a critical profession. Safeguards for our clients must be put into place in much the same way that safeguards to prevent doctors from rezzing other players are in place. Or in the same way that combat characters cannot attack one another without concent, be it implicit (overt) or explicit (duels.) In short, we are now no more above suspicion than any other profession, and the fact that we are capable of affecting change to every part of our client's toon at once has made it all the more difficult for our clients to effectively verify each and every change we make. Especially when the only change they expect is to their attributes.
Kyree-Sunrunner
Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:08 am
#42
When using services from people in real life, I check out the person or company from whom I am purchasing a service. When I have my nails done in the salon, I make sure they use brand new files, and I look for licenses on the wall. I get a reference from satisfied customers and I look at the certificates displayed on the wall before I use any auto mechanic. When I get a tattoo, I ask to see examples of the potential artists' work. When I am prescribed medication by my doctor, I look the drug up and check for possible side effects.
I don't think that my suggestion to protect oneself is insulting to anyone. With the possibility of innocent mistakes and just plain miscommunication that happens, it's always good to know what someone is doing with your body... here or in Real Life.
And again, the ID that messed with the original poster's appearance without their knowledge was totally unethical.
I don't think that my suggestion to protect oneself is insulting to anyone. With the possibility of innocent mistakes and just plain miscommunication that happens, it's always good to know what someone is doing with your body... here or in Real Life.
And again, the ID that messed with the original poster's appearance without their knowledge was totally unethical.
FuschiaD
Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:03 am
#43
therealzizz wrote:
oh my god, i think the sky is falling.. i agree with Fuschia and Mawie 100%.....
zizz
And in other news, snow has been reported in the fifth circle of hell... 
Seriously... this is madness. I'm pretty appalled by the turn of events in this conversation. I'm seriously, SERIOUSLY disturbed. What has happened to our community and our profession as a whole, that a potential client comes to suggest a change - based on something that happened to her personally- and it gets warped to this magnitude?
Vorpaks
Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:37 am
#44
Image design - its not just for masochists anymore? 
We now get sadists as well?
Honestly I think its not quite as bad as it seems. After finally doing ID for some long stretches at a time I ran into some of the things I've heard you all talking about. Rude behavior, bad language, sexual harrasssment. It is hard to shrug off. And when the 10 minutes of stat migration are up and the client has spilled some particularly nasty filth into the group chat window and you have the choice of either cancelling the session and loosing 10 minutes of time and potentially earning a spatial harasser or ignoring it, commiting the change, and feeling slightly dirty about it some vengeful things will cross your mind. I've indulged in a few fantasies myself, usually involving a RL slap across the face with full claws extended (human claws Rrowann, not wookiee claws) So I guess I am guilty of fantaisizing about a little unconsentual face rearrangement myself lol.
I am not saying that Magedellena did ANYTHING like this, but no doubt her story triggered some bad memories and they came spilling out. I still think the venting threads are the best place for this though - did that thread fall of the page? Maybe it should be resurrected?
From my own personal experience, even though hitting cancel seems like a waste of time and money, it really does give the most satisfaction - along with /addignore and /report. Doing nasty things to nasty people in retaliation just brings you down. Making unprovoked changes, like was done to Magdellena, is just wrong. I think most everyone here agrees on that point.
We now get sadists as well?Honestly I think its not quite as bad as it seems. After finally doing ID for some long stretches at a time I ran into some of the things I've heard you all talking about. Rude behavior, bad language, sexual harrasssment. It is hard to shrug off. And when the 10 minutes of stat migration are up and the client has spilled some particularly nasty filth into the group chat window and you have the choice of either cancelling the session and loosing 10 minutes of time and potentially earning a spatial harasser or ignoring it, commiting the change, and feeling slightly dirty about it some vengeful things will cross your mind. I've indulged in a few fantasies myself, usually involving a RL slap across the face with full claws extended (human claws Rrowann, not wookiee claws
) So I guess I am guilty of fantaisizing about a little unconsentual face rearrangement myself lol.I am not saying that Magedellena did ANYTHING like this, but no doubt her story triggered some bad memories and they came spilling out. I still think the venting threads are the best place for this though - did that thread fall of the page? Maybe it should be resurrected?
From my own personal experience, even though hitting cancel seems like a waste of time and money, it really does give the most satisfaction - along with /addignore and /report. Doing nasty things to nasty people in retaliation just brings you down. Making unprovoked changes, like was done to Magdellena, is just wrong. I think most everyone here agrees on that point.
Message Edited by Vorpaks on 09-09-2004 11:39 AM
Maisland
Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:34 pm
#45
Syzygy-Gorath wrote:
While I did suggest checkboxes in another thread, there are other ways to accomodate the same safeguards for the client without them. Another set of boolean displays listing "Cosmetic Change: Yes/No" and "Body Change: Yes/No" would work just as well to provide the customer an added safeguard. And I do believe these safeguards are warranted, maybe even necessary. I've watched the changes in this community both on the forums and on the servers, and I can't say I'm impressed by them. Where once we were a caring, conscientious, ethical profession, we are now a critical profession. Safeguards for our clients must be put into place in much the same way that safeguards to prevent doctors from rezzing other players are in place. Or in the same way that combat characters cannot attack one another without concent, be it implicit (overt) or explicit (duels.) In short, we are now no more above suspicion than any other profession, and the fact that we are capable of affecting change to every part of our client's toon at once has made it all the more difficult for our clients to effectively verify each and every change we make. Especially when the only change they expect is to their attributes.
This seems to me like the best solution. I'm actually rather bothered that we have the stat migration and holo-emote info and not cosmetic and body change info as well already. It would appear that they did a half-fast job giving us the one and not the other. Especially since holo-emotes aren't really a "change" as such and with the timer, it's pretty obvious if one is giving a stat migration. I know when grinding, I sometimes forget if I made a change or not, and there is nothing on either the ID or the customer side to indicate it if the change was something subtle.
I will say that I am appalled by any ID who would do this to a customer for any reason. They give the entire community a bad name. My characters' appearance is something that I take great pains with and the ability to make changes is a big reason why I took up ID myself... on each server where I have characters. I would certainly hate it if someone did something like this to any of my characters and would never do it to anyone else's. Even when I was grinding, if someone allowed me to practice on them, I tried to do the least damage.
Hippychick
Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:14 am
#46
FuschiaD wrote:
*rolls up sleeves*
Okay, this is getting out of hand. I am quite simply appalled at the kind of reaction this thread has gotten. This should be a NO-BRAINER. At NO TIME should we ever use our skills to exact 'revenge' on someone, or teach someone a 'lesson', or anything of the sort. At NO TIME is it EVER the client's fault if this happens. It is NOT FOR YOU, THE ID, to say what the person should or should NOT be wearing, as long as it doesn't interfere with the job you are doing on them. If they want an eye color change and they're wearing a helmet, OBVIOUSLY that is going to be a problem. If they're wanting a skin tone change and they're in head to toe armor, yeah, that might be an issue. If they're wanting their stats changed, it should not matter. PERIOD.
What is happening to this community, that this should even be a topic for debate? How can anyone say that it's just hilarious when Uber Combat Dude #4 comes to you for a stat migration and since he can't see what you're doing, it's just fine to make him look like a mutant ape? How can anyone say that because this person APPEARED to be wearing armor in the UI - a problem that is caused by a BUG! - that she deserved what she got? How can you even imply it?
These clients come to us because they trust us with their characters - an area of the game that is, for most, a REALLY personal thing. I know I wouldn't want just anyone to touch my 'toon. What possible valid reason would we EVER have for betraying that trust?
In my opinion, none whatsoever.
Do we have clients that are less than a joy to work with? Of course. That is why we have the handy-dandy cancel button. Do we have clients that want to stiff us? Yes. That's what the 'required payment' slot is for.
This client had something done to her character that she felt was a violation. She came here, to us, to discuss it with us and present what was, to her and probably other people as well, a viable, workable solution. And she got abused for it.
That bothers me.
Sweetie I agree 110%!
If someone comes to me for stats I automatically go to the STATS tab,never even touch the other stuff.
A question,do you get more xp when you do stats + customizations?
If so I bet thats what this person did,in an effort to gather more xp off the session.
As for taking your helmet off for migration,I have completely changed clothes,asked someone how I look and they see me in the clothes I had on before I changed.
I wear armor when fighting,and put my other stuff on afterwards,several times I have decided to change hair and things to match my outfits,head to the tent,hit ID and I STILL have my comp on.
Its a bug that seriously needs to be fixed,but its not very high on the list of things to be fixed,we are not Jedi so therefore we are the last in line to get any help IMO.
In all honesty,I have been TEMPTED to mess with some peoples features,but TEMPTED was as far as it got.
I take great pride in my profession,I haven'tmessed anyone up yet that I know of
Ask anyone on Tarquinas that knows me.
Its a shame that someone did this and I see no reason for it to happen.
Teras Kasi Warrioress | Master Image Designer | Master Entertaine
rVADR City,Naboo | Tarquinas
Magdallenna
Sun Sep 12, 2004 10:36 am
#47
Kyree-Sunrunner wrote:
As someone mentioned earlier, there are jerks in every profession. I'd seriously recommend that you find an ID or two that you trust and go to them exclusively for all your work. If you know people who have had ID work done, ask them who did their work and if they are satisfied with their experience. If you have to get work done by an ID you don't know, then *please* take steps to protect yourself. If you notice changes that you didn't ask for, then cancel the session and find another ID.
Most of the people I've met, who are serious IDers, would be totally appalled at what happened to you. This person was totally unethical in their actions.
I've found it inordinately amusing how much furor my simple complaint has created. You say most IDers would be appalled, but there's more than a few here that found what happened to me as very funny, or Tsk'd me for not being more careful and made it my fault. Yes, there are jerks in every profession, and it's Sony's job to reduce the damage they can do using Sony's tools in Sony's game. Besides, a jerk TK/Rifleman/Chef/Etc/Dancer/Jedi can't do anything to screwme nearly as subtly nor as invasive as an ID can. The simple "Cosmetic Changes: Yes" indicator that toggles when the ID touches any part of me would be enough to at least give us a chance to detect when we're being screwed. That, and fixing the armor bug, obviously.
The reason I posted at all is that you're an elite profession, with a very unique contribution to the game, and you're success is 100% dependant upon not only your reputation, but the reputations of every one of your peers. All the folks who want to try ID will be sitting in the "Hair Tent" wondering why no one will talk to them because EVERYONE goes to their friends who are mastersthat they know and trust. They're forced to sit and play "Barbie Head" on each other until they master, then wonder why STILL no onetalks to them. This is not fiction, this is how it is with several ID's that I know, because of the malicious reprobates like those who posted in this thread, who think it's funny to take liberties with the reputation of their peers for fun and dillute the RP in the community by doing something that, in the real world, would have them sued into oblivion for malpractice so they do it in SWG with impunity.
My apologies for disrupting your forum and community, for I am not nor will never be an ID, but this was an issue about your profession that concerned me and I felt it important enough to invade your forum and speak on it.
Humbly your,
Mags
Mawie
Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:09 pm
#48
Magdallenna wrote:
My apologies for disrupting your forum and community, for I am not nor will never be an ID, but this was an issue about your profession that concerned me and I felt it important enough to invade your forum and speak on it.
Why apologize? For every person here who belittled you and made this out to be your fault, there is another person telling them they are inane for saying that.
You didn't chose to be a victim by the ID the first time around... and you certainly should not be a victim of stupidity from posters on the ID forums now. Even innocent, innocuous posts will gather retards who feel that because they have the ability to type that they should. But, I also have the feeling some people were playing devil's advocate when they made their posts, telling you how you could have protected yourself.
Expecting Sony to protect you is both reasonable and unreasonable. OBVIOUSLY, as a paying customer they should help you out... but as we all know, SOE's customer service is lacking tremendously. Unless you log every convo you have, they cannot prove that all you wanted was a stat migration. Hence, nothing can be done.
/shrug
Anyway, you're more than welcome here. I'm a former ID and I still hang around here and annoy them. 
Kyree-Sunrunner
Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:13 pm
#49
Magdallenna wrote:
Kyree-Sunrunner wrote:
As someone mentioned earlier, there are jerks in every profession. I'd seriously recommend that you find an ID or two that you trust and go to them exclusively for all your work. If you know people who have had ID work done, ask them who did their work and if they are satisfied with their experience. If you have to get work done by an ID you don't know, then *please* take steps to protect yourself. If you notice changes that you didn't ask for, then cancel the session and find another ID.
Most of the people I've met, who are serious IDers, would be totally appalled at what happened to you. This person was totally unethical in their actions.I've found it inordinately amusing how much furor my simple complaint has created. You say most IDers would be appalled, but there's more than a few here that found what happened to me as very funny, or Tsk'd me for not being more careful and made it my fault. Yes, there are jerks in every profession, and it's Sony's job to reduce the damage they can do using Sony's tools in Sony's game. Besides, a jerk TK/Rifleman/Chef/Etc/Dancer/Jedi can't do anything to screw me nearly as subtly nor as invasive as an ID can. The simple "Cosmetic Changes: Yes" indicator that toggles when the ID touches any part of me would be enough to at least give us a chance to detect when we're being screwed. That, and fixing the armor bug, obviously.The reason I posted at all is that you're an elite profession, with a very unique contribution to the game, and you're success is 100% dependant upon not only your reputation, but the reputations of every one of your peers. All the folks who want to try ID will be sitting in the "Hair Tent" wondering why no one will talk to them because EVERYONE goes to their friends who are masters that they know and trust. They're forced to sit and play "Barbie Head" on each other until they master, then wonder why STILL no one talks to them. This is not fiction, this is how it is with several ID's that I know, because of the malicious reprobates like those who posted in this thread, who think it's funny to take liberties with the reputation of their peers for fun and dillute the RP in the community by doing something that, in the real world, would have them sued into oblivion for malpractice so they do it in SWG with impunity.My apologies for disrupting your forum and community, for I am not nor will never be an ID, but this was an issue about your profession that concerned me and I felt it important enough to invade your forum and speak on it.Humbly your,Mags
What I so obviously did not make clear is that I think any IDer who would screw with someone's appearance should be fed to the sarlacc. I also obviously did not make it clear that the victim is not to blame for the crime. I apologize if you felt that I blamed you in any way.
I tried to make suggestions that might be helpful with the current system. Eventually I will learn that people will misinterpret either tone or intentions of text based communication, no matter how helpful or polite one tries to come across.
Your apology is not necessary, and I think that you were right to bring it to this forum. Personally, I am pretty shocked to learn that anyone would do things that have been admitted to in this thread.
SakeO
Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:50 pm
#50
Magdellena,
Despite the fact that I did not agree with your solutions and my "caveat emptor" warningscan be construed as blaming the victim, I am very sorry it happened to you or happens at all and agree that you have every right to bring your issues with the communtiy here.
In other forums the posters attempt to silence those who aren't part of that profession or community and I think it is wrong. With out an outside view the forums can get one-sided and the discussion stale. How we appear to the rest of the game community matters and we should be concerned with it.
Chasing Amy - Bria
Maisland
Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:28 pm
#51
Hippychick wrote:
A question,do you get more xp when you do stats + customizations?
If so I bet thats what this person did,in an effort to gather more xp off the session.
No, you do not get more xp if you do more than one type of change during a session. You get no more xp for doing a stat migration plus total makeover than you get for doing only a stat migration... so the ID who did this doesn't even have that lame excuse for destroying Magdallena's character's appearance.
I will admit that there have been times when I have been tempted to experiment on people's faces to see what kind of effects I could get, and have considered in such cases asking their permission to do so, but I would never even THINK about messing with them if I couldn't see what I was doing, let alone doing so without their permission. As you might guess, I live for customers who want me to make them "look cool" and give me a free hand to do so.
Madam
Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:42 pm
#52
What do you mean you "gave up your right?"
Nobody has the right to make unwanted changes to a character. I realize that this is a game, but why are you trying to ruin it for everyone else?
If you are having a 'creative surge' and need to get it out of your system, then pay a friend to come sit in the tent with you or take it out on your own character.
If the customer is being a jerk and won't pay, then cancel the transaction and put them on your ignor list.
If that's really your attidude (meaning 'you gave up your right so I can do what I want to you') then perhaps you should ask yourself why you are in that profession.
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