Image Designer Archive

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VooDooK wrote:

You people just don't get it do you? Image Designining was FUN!!! It was great to change people's looks. People asking to make them "Fat" for awhile because it was a funny joke. People wanting to try out a whole bunch of different hairstyles. The fact you could change your own looks whenever you wanted!

Now... it's hella boring. If you're smart, do the math.

For Image Design IV it takes 15000 Experience. WIth only Image Design III at your disposal, you can change your own hair for 150 xp a change. It takes 5 minutes per change, 15000xp / 150xp = 100 times you have to grind ID. 5 mins x 100 = 500 mins. 500 mins / 60 mins = 8.33 HOURS!!!!! 8.33 HOURS just to get Image Design IV !!! And it gets worst as you progress through Novice ID.

Okay okay, let's just go back to the 100 times you gotta ID someone. Either you sit in front of your PC for 8.33 hours clicking Commit every 5 minutes. Or you have to find 100 people that are willing to have their hair or eyes changed. Hairchange forget it since the hairstyles you get at ID III suck. And if you manage to find 100 people that need their eye changes within a week, you're one hell of a lucky @#$%^& !!!

The result is GRINDING! We sit our lazy @sses for 8.33 hours just to raise 1 skill slot. What does SOE all think we don't have any lives or something?

Oh wait of course, Image Design was supose to be a SOCIALIZING Profession now. All I can see from this are LOST CUSTOMERS!!!

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Customer: Hi can you gimme funky spiky hair and make it red?

You: No sorry, I only have Image Design II... I need to ID another 200 people before I can reach at least ID III, but within 3 months from now, I'll be able to give you spiky green hair! Add me to your friendlist!

Customer: Are you like stupid or something?

You: No, it's our profession that sucks. Sorry

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Or how about:

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Customer: Hi can you make my Eyes Blue instead of Yellow?

You: Sure!

(waiting 5 minutes)

Customer: BTW can you migrate my stats?

You: Nope

Customer: Oh, can you give me Holoemotes?

You: Nope... I need to be a NOvice. I'm still stuck with the Entertainer ID skills

A nearby Master Image Designer: "Cheap ID Session! I'm a Master ID! Only 50k for a full make-over! Will give holo-emotes & stats migrations for free too!"

Customer: Oh umm... I Know there's still 3 minutes left, but I think I'm going to go see that Master ID! Sorry

You: NOOO!!! Please wait just 3 more minutes, I need the 150 xp!!! Please!

Customer: I'm in a hurry myself, bye.

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See... any novice or entertainer will lose customers ANY DAY to a 2-hour-ID-grinder-before-publish MAster Image DEsigner!!! ANY!!!

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Also, remember, when you ID other folks, the xp gained is kinda twice what you get from self-practice, which seems to have been overlooked in your early rough math.

Hmm well, thye later complaints are the same pretty much -any- profession has with selling their services when a master is available. Most folks tend to perfer to goto the master for their weapons/armor for the best rates, especially when prices are such that it costs the same to purchase a master made item than a novice-made item.

Message Edited by Reiella on 05-22-2004 01:22 PM

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EloranStarlighter wrote:

I didn't find BH hard at all. As for ID being hard now...despite the "early rough math" it's barely any better. 8.33/2 = 4.165 or so hours per skill. PER SKILL. That's quite a gain from 40 minutes...per profession.

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The 8 hour number or so was in reference to the time it takes to advance to Image Design IV in the entertainer branch, from zero.

Just a clarification, I think I know what you meant [for the skill-line as a whole in Entertainer], an amount which is about 31,000 ID XP, [so it's roughly equal, but still less than the XP required to get Elite Profession Skill 4, and slightly more than Skill 3].

Erm, actually reading the post over, I see I misunderstood something, so will rework the math.

ID 4 takes 15,000 ID XP. @ 300 xp per change [when not self changing]. Requirse 50 changes. Each change takes 5 minutes outside of the tent. With that assumption,.. It's 250 minutes, Which is about 4hours 10 minutes. If you practice within the tent, it's only 2 and a half minutes. And ther it drops to 2 hours 5 minutes.

Doing some checking real quick, to determine if that's right or not. Because something doesn't feel like it's adding up [notably the 64 hour total doesn't feel right there].

Ah, okie, Hair is just a cosmetic change [2 minute timer when not in a Tent], and gets 50 xp [if on self, 100 if on others].

So assuming haircolor/changes. 15,000 xp @ 100 xp/hit. So 150 hair changes to level. @ 2minutes in the wild, and 1 minute in the Salon. So most simply, it's 2 and a half hours doing haircolor changes.

Eye-color changes do meet the situation described above though. 5 minute timer, 300 xp, 2.5 in a tent. So you get the above stated, 2 hours 5 minutes.

Bit curious about the hours being tossed around before though, so going to run those now .

441,000 ID XP is required to hit Master ID from nothing.

So, let's work an "optimal advancement" path.
Novice Entertainer to ID 2 : 6,000 ID XP @ 100xp/min. 1 hour.
ID 2 to Novice ID: 35,000 xp @ 300xp/2.5min(120 xp/min), roughly 5 hours [4 hours and 31/36 of an hour, or 51 minutes and change, so take 5 hours ].
Novice ID to Master ID: 400,000 xp @ 600 xp/5min (120 xp/min, same as above). 56 hours [55.5555, so 55 hours and 40 minutes, round up it's easier ]

Total comes out to 62 hours to master Image Designer right now.

Okie, got numbers justified in my head now . Sorry for the sidetrack, just wanted to get that straight in my head.

And yep, it is an increase, an increase we kinda wanted. An increase we probably don't want as high as it is right now . But that's for other threads.

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Reiella wrote:

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EloranStarlighter wrote:

I didn't find BH hard at all. As for ID being hard now...despite the "early rough math" it's barely any better. 8.33/2 = 4.165 or so hours per skill. PER SKILL. That's quite a gain from 40 minutes...per profession.

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The 8 hour number or so was in reference to the time it takes to advance to Image Design IV in the entertainer branch, from zero.

Just a clarification, I think I know what you meant [for the skill-line as a whole in Entertainer], an amount which is about 31,000 ID XP, [so it's roughly equal, but still less than the XP required to get Elite Profession Skill 4, and slightly more than Skill 3].

Erm, actually reading the post over, I see I misunderstood something, so will rework the math.

ID 4 takes 15,000 ID XP. @ 300 xp per change [when not self changing]. Requirse 50 changes. Each change takes 5 minutes outside of the tent. With that assumption,.. It's 250 minutes, Which is about 4hours 10 minutes. If you practice within the tent, it's only 2 and a half minutes. And ther it drops to 2 hours 5 minutes.

Doing some checking real quick, to determine if that's right or not. Because something doesn't feel like it's adding up [notably the 64 hour total doesn't feel right there].

Ah, okie, Hair is just a cosmetic change [2 minute timer when not in a Tent], and gets 50 xp [if on self, 100 if on others].

So assuming haircolor/changes. 15,000 xp @ 100 xp/hit. So 150 hair changes to level. @ 2minutes in the wild, and 1 minute in the Salon. So most simply, it's 2 and a half hours doing haircolor changes.

Eye-color changes do meet the situation described above though. 5 minute timer, 300 xp, 2.5 in a tent. So you get the above stated, 2 hours 5 minutes.

Bit curious about the hours being tossed around before though, so going to run those now .

441,000 ID XP is required to hit Master ID from nothing.

So, let's work an "optimal advancement" path.
Novice Entertainer to ID 2 : 6,000 ID XP @ 100xp/min. 1 hour.
ID 2 to Novice ID: 35,000 xp @ 300xp/2.5min(120 xp/min), roughly 5 hours [4 hours and 31/36 of an hour, or 51 minutes and change, so take 5 hours ].
Novice ID to Master ID: 400,000 xp @ 600 xp/5min (120 xp/min, same as above). 56 hours [55.5555, so 55 hours and 40 minutes, round up it's easier ]

Total comes out to 62 hours to master Image Designer right now.

Okie, got numbers justified in my head now . Sorry for the sidetrack, just wanted to get that straight in my head.

And yep, it is an increase, an increase we kinda wanted. An increase we probably don't want as high as it is right now . But that's for other threads.

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Let us continue this a little further, making a few "safe" assumptions about play style and available time to play.

Let us assume that the hypothetical player here spends an equal amount of time with the ID UI open as they spend with it closed. We will also assume that this player is a casual one, and only plays 1.5 hours a day on weekdays, and only 4 hours total on the weekend.

UI open = 62 hours

UI Closed = 62 hours.

Total = 124 hours.

Divided by 11.5 hours per week

At that rate, they should have obtained the nessissary ID exp by theweekend of the eleventh week.

I will not calculate it from the "grinders" stand point, as the Hologrind will be going away soon enough. I recomend that those who get ID from a holo just forget about it and wait out the changes. I know how much people love having something to brag about, but squeezing ID in before the Jedi changes isn't quite the notch you would want in your pistol grip.

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Just_Bri wrote:

I will not calculate it from the "grinders" stand point, as the Hologrind will be going away soon enough. I recomend that those who get ID from a holo just forget about it and wait out the changes. I know how much people love having something to brag about, but squeezing ID in before the Jedi changes isn't quite the notch you would want in your pistol grip.

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And therein lies a problem. Every will socialize a different amount, and different fortunes running their way. So the means for balance consideration should be 'work hours', or considering it from the grinders perspective. It doesn't matter that hologrinding is going away in 2 publishes, at least, it doesn't matter to those who aren't hologrinding . Folks will still grind a profession, even if a holo doesn't tell them to do it. Especially folks who want to play the profession and feel that they are only useful at Master in that profession [far too easy of a perception to obtain in Image Designer]. Just as there were AFK/macrotainers before holocrons and the path to Jedi became known, there will be after the method to Jedi is changed, and there are those who grind ID now, independant of any quest to ID.

And really remember Q3PO I believe it was. The game isn't balance against "sub-optimal" play.

Now, for your own personal evaluation of professions, I suppose that works out, but I don't believe it to be fair to use as the baseline. After all, even in the 'rapid-advancement' days, there were folks who took monthes to master ID...

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Reiella wrote:

And therein lies a problem. Every will socialize a different amount, and different fortunes running their way. So the means for balance consideration should be 'work hours', or considering it from the grinders perspective. It doesn't matter that hologrinding is going away in 2 publishes, at least, it doesn't matter to those who aren't hologrinding . Folks will still grind a profession, even if a holo doesn't tell them to do it. Especially folks who want to play the profession and feel that they are only useful at Master in that profession [far too easy of a perception to obtain in Image Designer]. Just as there were AFK/macrotainers before holocrons and the path to Jedi became known, there will be after the method to Jedi is changed, and there are those who grind ID now, independant of any quest to ID.

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Yeah, there will always be grinders, but when hologrinding is gone, it won't be such a big issue. One of the best things that happened for Image Designers in the revamp/mini-publish was that it's not possible to macro the profession anymore. I think that future grinders will grind, but also play the game.

AFK/macrotainers will never vanish until the DEVs take a stand against it, or code something to prevent it.

We'll see alot more unattended buff-bots and healing bots in the future.

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Reiella wrote:

Now, for your own personal evaluation of professions, I suppose that works out, but I don't believe it to be fair to use as the baseline. After all, even in the 'rapid-advancement' days, there were folks who took monthes to master ID...

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Yes, I tried to take that into account. My estimate of 11 weeks is months.

One thing the revamp doesn't take into account is Master Image Designers. I don't need any xp. I've mastered the profession. So why am I limited as to how many changes I can make and when? I often change my toon's look to match outfits/mood, yet now I can't (unless I want to wait around 2 minutes to change my hair colour.)

And I can't migrate my own stats? How crazy is that? Why is this in place?

Then there's the case (which often happens) of people who don't want to pay for ID work. Now not only do I have to persuade them that I need the cash (as I had to pay for all my ID training), but also that they'll have to wait 5 minutes whilst I finish working on this other person, then I'll get to them and they'll be down a few minutes while we work out their changes.

Frankly, SOE have completely screwed up the ID class with the timer. It's not fun. It's not player-friendly, both in terms of Image Designer and client. It serves no purpose, other than to slow the pace of the game down. Why not simply increase the xp costs per skill box? That would make much more sense. It makes ID harder to Master (which is what people seem to want), doesn't penalise those who've already Mastered it and allows non-Masters to make some sensible xp.

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MonkeyofDoom wrote:

One thing the revamp doesn't take into account is Master Image Designers. I don't need any xp. I've mastered the profession. So why am I limited as to how many changes I can make and when? I often change my toon's look to match outfits/mood, yet now I can't (unless I want to wait around 2 minutes to change my hair colour.)

And I can't migrate my own stats? How crazy is that? Why is this in place?

Then there's the case (which often happens) of people who don't want to pay for ID work. Now not only do I have to persuade them that I need the cash (as I had to pay for all my ID training), but also that they'll have to wait 5 minutes whilst I finish working on this other person, then I'll get to them and they'll be down a few minutes while we work out their changes.

Frankly, SOE have completely screwed up the ID class with the timer. It's not fun. It's not player-friendly, both in terms of Image Designer and client. It serves no purpose, other than to slow the pace of the game down. Why not simply increase the xp costs per skill box? That would make much more sense. It makes ID harder to Master (which is what people seem to want), doesn't penalise those who've already Mastered it and allows non-Masters to make some sensible xp.

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I agree Fuschia... and I think now ID is ONLY grindable and not playable at all.... sure it takes longer but that's the only way to get to Master. It's simply not possible to "play up to Master". Even the few examples I've read where people have started new characters to prove that the current system works tend to stop at 2,2,2,2 and that's with "friends helping".... or in other words grinding! I'd rather err on the side of caution... let the grinders through and get out of our way since they don't really want to play anyway, but let the rest of us actually enjoy getting to Master - remove the timers. Thanks!

The way i view the whole timer issue is that they already basically made it a non macro-able profession with the new UI changes (which btw i think rock! )

Just to let u guys know iam STILL GRINDING image design exp to get master entertainer! Some problems I have been facing getting exp:

I was in the image designer tent the other day spamming : Need to image design on someone because i need the xp, because i get more on a image designing on a person them by myself! Not to mention i don't have the skills yet to image design on myself because of my race i have no hair. I can only change eye color which I can't do yet! 30 min. has passed no answer no one helps me! I ask my guild they say screw that I have other things to do then click accept every other min! So I spam: Iwill pay u 15k if u help me get exp so I can get the skill to change eye color so I can image design on myself! 15 min. has passed I finally get a tell. The person gets me to the skill needed to change eye color pay her 15k and she loggs off lol! Well I was excited I can finally can change eye color on myself and get more exp! Well I do it then i watch the timer go from 2 min. to 5 min.? So every time i image desing on myself and change eye color... While iam in a tent i have to wait 5 min.!!!! Each time and iam only getting 150 xp! This is going to take weeks devs please fix this prof i beg u!