Image Designer Archive

Thread: Creativity Does not Equal Money

Aynianu
Wed May 12, 2004 8:09 am
#14

I kinda agree with a lot of points here, including the origional poster.

However the fact is not everyone plays the same, i happen to be a fairly good artist myself, at leastwith pencil, paints and music(however it goes mostly to waste since i left college) Wouldnt say it gave me a right to dictate how i thought Image Designers should be played however

This is a game though, not real life, the economics here work a lot differently than in real life, for example food sells better than armour in real life does it not? people value things differently in game than in real life, and i think the same goes with image design, its more than art, hair salons fetch money in RL i dont see them doing it for free (except the college ones), Ever looked up the prices on beauty therepy, or plastic surgery?

Yes image design is a type of art, but do it for free? i dont think so

Message Edited by Aynianu on 05-12-2004 08:14 AM

TDLUNT
Wed May 12, 2004 8:11 am
#15




mh307 wrote:


look at the trade forums, if you want a full set of rebel marine armor, a genosian blaster, a wookie life day orb, a sith holocron, and a krayte pearl for display in your house you need some major cash


we need to make that cash somehow


-Biana







So take up a profession that has better income generating potentional, instead of relying on a novelty profession to pay you're bills. Not all professions in this game are equal, nor should they be. And nerfing 31 professions because one profession can't make enough money is hardly acceptable.









im gunna start an arrow post here and say exactly


over and above mission payouts you get loot handed to you for every couple things you kill


some items sell on the boards for hundreds of k to millions


think me doing your hair means me not killing nightsisters and not looting that +15 weapon experimentation tape


think about that


-Biana



Yes, but you *chose* to do that persons hair instead of killing those nightsisters. You chose to miss out on not having that chance to loot that exp tape. Not all things in this game have the same income generating potentional so why should ID'ing someone be automatically equated with the value ofpotentially lootinga +15 exp tape. You made the choice not to got hunting, so stop blaming you're potentional customers for supposedly inconviencing you.

Gyopi
Wed May 12, 2004 8:17 am
#16




TDLUNT wrote:

So take up a profession that has better income generating potentional, instead of relying on a novelty profession to pay you're bills. Not all professions in this game are equal, nor should they be. And nerfing 31 professions because one profession can't make enough money is hardly acceptable.





And this is why we will never agree. It is obvious that you have zero respect for image designers and think it is a waste of a profession. I disagree and the only thing that could possibly make it a profession without any "income generating potential" is that kind of attitude that it doesn't deserve to earn any income. What I do makes other people in the game really happy and enhances the way they play. Killing lairs does not affect any other people at all. There is room for both types of professions in this game.








Momoko--Master Tailor near Kaadara on Lowca--
Come to Sitateya boutique at (5083 5804) on Naboo for elegant fashions, accessories, cute outfits, uniforms or any other clothing needs.
Eimi -- Master Bioengineer - Master Image Designer on Lowca--
Eimiko--Master Image Designer on TestCenter--

Breestan
Wed May 12, 2004 8:18 am
#17

::coughs politely and stands up::


I'm an artist. No, not just an image designer. I majored in Art, I am fascinated by art and art history. I love art. I have since I was a child. I consider myself an artist, though I don't hang out in coffeeshops pondering the meaning of the color puce. I consider myself an author, though I don't sit in poetry houses quoting random things to a beat of a drum. I am an artist, and I have met many artists. We are eccentric yes, and sometimes a little bit "off our rocker" ....


However... being an artist and an author has taught me that we must value our work. (Copyright issues aside.)


Michaelangelo hated painting, did you know that? His first and only true passion was sculpture, he looked down on painting. However, his greatest works are paintings...... because of patronage. The first artists were artists because they were employed to be artists. Michaelangelo was paid to paint the Sisteen chapel Ceiling and the back wall behind the alter. He was paid to make sculptures for nobility. Shakespere was paid to write plays. Leonardo DaVincci was paid to do nearly everything he did.


Back in the day of the greatest artists. Back when art as a 'profession' was first begining to take root in Europe... to be an artist meant that you were employed. Those portraits of Royalty were not painted because the artist saw Queen Elizabeth and gasped "I must paint you!" .... it is because Elizabeth hired them to do so. They were given room and board and their supplies would be paid for in many cases. Otherwise they were given a flat fee.


Even roman sculptures of the Ceasers were hired works. The greek sculptures as well. Artists pursued art as a passion yes. (Michaelangelo rarely finished a work because a new passion would take hold.) However, to be an artist, one had to be hired. Otherwise you would be a dead artist.


Even today, we hear things like "starving artist"


Hairstylists at a salon may be passionate about their work, but once they've left Beauty school, they charge more for their time.


Artists in the MOCA Museum are being paid to allow the museum to show their work. I can not tell you how hard it is to be an artist with a passion and hold another job. At another job you can not stop and run to your studio to paint. You have to use your spare time.


If you wish to be an artist.... then you will employ yourself. Or you will starve.


We do art for the passion. But if we want to continue to pursue our passion without the constraints of another job forcing us to only pursue it when we are tired and off work, then we will make that passion profitable. This is not the independant, freelance work of a fledgeling who may use watercolor but doesn't know the first thing about charcoal.


Without money, you can not purchase supplies. You can not pay rent, or anything else. Without supplies you can not pursue the passion. In everything there is a circle. But do not suppose to know how the mind of a passionate person works. I shall not starve in the real world, nor shall I starve in a game.




Tekoa Dia'koh *** Irys Eo'Nel
Master Dancer and Image Designer
:: The Lunatic Dawn :: Redemption, Lok, Ahazi *** Mos Eisly, Starsider
And proud to be a Galaxy Girl!
Breestan
Wed May 12, 2004 8:25 am
#18

::coughs politely and stands up::


I'm an artist. No, not just an image designer. I majored in Art, I am fascinated by art and art history. I love art. I have since I was a child. I consider myself an artist, though I don't hang out in coffeeshops pondering the meaning of the color puce. I consider myself an author, though I don't sit in poetry houses quoting random things to a beat of a drum. I am an artist, and I have met many artists. We are eccentric yes, and sometimes a little bit "off our rocker" .... I am not a person who merely 'dabbles' a little in art when the mood strikes me.


However... being an artist and an author has taught me that we must value our work. (Copyright issues aside.) And as an Artist that you say you are, you should understand that.......


Michaelangelo hated painting, did you know that? His first and only true passion was sculpture, he looked down on painting. However, his greatest works are paintings...... because of patronage. The first artists were artists because they were employed to be artists. Michaelangelo was paid to paint the Sisteen chapel Ceiling and the back wall behind the alter. He was paid to make sculptures for nobility. Shakespere was paid to write plays. Leonardo DaVincci was paid to do nearly everything he did.


Back in the day of the greatest artists. Back when art as a 'profession' was first begining to take root in Europe... to be an artist meant that you were employed. Those portraits of Royalty were not painted because the artist saw Queen Elizabeth and gasped "I must paint you!" .... it is because Elizabeth hired them to do so. They were given room and board and their supplies would be paid for in many cases. Otherwise they were given a flat fee.


Even roman sculptures of the Ceasers were hired works. The greek sculptures as well. Artists pursued art as a passion yes. (Michaelangelo rarely finished a work because a new passion would take hold.) However, to be an artist, one had to be hired. Otherwise you would be a dead artist.


Even today, we hear things like "starving artist"


Hairstylists at a salon may be passionate about their work, but once they've left Beauty school, they charge more for their time.


Artists in the MOCA Museum are being paid to allow the museum to show their work. I can not tell you how hard it is to be an artist with a passion and hold another job. At another job you can not stop and run to your studio to paint. You have to use your spare time.


If you wish to be an artist.... then you will employ yourself. Or you will starve.


We do art for the passion. But if we want to continue to pursue our passion without the constraints of another job forcing us to only pursue it when we are tired and off work, then we will make that passion profitable. This is not the independant, freelance work of a fledgeling who may use watercolor but doesn't know the first thing about charcoal.


Without money, you can not purchase supplies. You can not pay rent, or anything else. Without supplies you can not pursue the passion. In everything there is a circle. But do not suppose to know how the mind of a passionate person works. I shall not starve in the real world, nor shall I starve in a game.

---


Yes, game mechanics are much different than real world.... but I suppose we lean on the old Supply and demand theory. You need to be green. I need your credits. I have the ability to make you green..... and we both can find someone else to supply our need. But you will always have to deal with the other person's price.


Creativity does not equal money. But handing my creativity to the world does. A seamstress charges for her work- even if someone else gave her the supplies.

A hairstylist charges even though all she uses is some water for a man's hair cut.

This is a trade economy in SWG


Time for money.

Time for object.

Object for money.

Object for object.


This is economy. This is trade.




Tekoa Dia'koh *** Irys Eo'Nel
Master Dancer and Image Designer
:: The Lunatic Dawn :: Redemption, Lok, Ahazi *** Mos Eisly, Starsider
And proud to be a Galaxy Girl!
Veldcath
Wed May 12, 2004 8:33 am
#19


TDLUNT wrote:

So take up a profession that has better income generating potentional, instead of relying on a novelty profession to pay you're bills. Not all professions in this game are equal, nor should they be. And nerfing 31 professions because one profession can't make enough money is hardly acceptable.


Yes, but you *chose* to do that persons hair instead of killing those nightsisters. You chose to miss out on not having that chance to loot that exp tape. Not all things in this game have the same income generating potentional so why should ID'ing someone be automatically equated with the value ofpotentially lootinga +15 exp tape. You made the choice not to got hunting, so stop blaming you're potentional customers for supposedly inconviencing you.



I became an ID for me. Because I wanted to be able to change my own style when I wanted. When I mastered, I wore the tag with pride because I HAD MASTERED SOMETHING. Wow, it had felt good, even if it was a 'worthless' profession. And then I took my tag down and went back to 'novice scout' because people kept BEGGING me to miss shuttles so they could get an ID job. And some of those people wouldn't even tip me in appreciation for my taking time out of my day at THEIR REQUEST.


If someone asks you to go gather meat, you get money TWICE - once for the mission and again for the meat. And yet people want to deny ID's their due just because there's no physical product; only time spent. Well, that's a load of bull. Of course, charging 50k for something seems like bull to me too, but while I might say that the price seems high and I wouldn't charge that much, I will NOT say "oh, just get yourself a combat prof and forget ID if you want money." Some people are here for social interaction, not slaying. Some people don't like PvP fighting. Some people don't enjoy endless lair-destroying.


If you don't like IDs charging money, fine. Don't use them. Stay looking how you are or become one yourself. But don't blame US for the Stat Migration mess - that was dumped in our laps last-moment and we had no say over it. Now WE need to travel to these five locations to do it for you. We ARE inconvenienced. And not because of something WE chose, but because of something that was thrust upon us unawares. It's only FAIR for us to be recompensed for it. Or would you rather all IDs quit and NOBODY can migrate stats any more?


No, get off your high horse and pay for services. If you don't like the fee, haggle or find a cheaper offer. But don't ever suggest we don't have a right to charge for time spent.


It's comments like this that will keep me from putting my MID tag back up and ONLY ID for my guildmates.


-V
Sir_Voor
Wed May 12, 2004 8:36 am
#20
LOL

1. there are a lot of non adults playing this game (include yourself in that )

2. there are alot of non artist ID's ( they are called holocroner and they have nothing to do with it )

3. there are alot of folks who don't understand business. ( Look up "supply and demand" and maybe you will understand business a little better )


I understand your post you simply want "something for nothing" and plan on insulting us at the same time, LOL good luck that, troll







[`M Sir VOOR N`\

TooVeeOrahno
Wed May 12, 2004 8:37 am
#21




Breestan wrote:


::coughs politely and stands up::


I'm an artist. No, not just an image designer. I majored in Art, I am fascinated by art and art history. I love art. I have since I was a child. I consider myself an artist, though I don't hang out in coffeeshops pondering the meaning of the color puce. I consider myself an author, though I don't sit in poetry houses quoting random things to a beat of a drum. I am an artist, and I have met many artists. We are eccentric yes, and sometimes a little bit "off our rocker" .... I am not a person who merely 'dabbles' a little in art when the mood strikes me.


However... being an artist and an author has taught me that we must value our work. (Copyright issues aside.) And as an Artist that you say you are, you should understand that.......


Michaelangelo hated painting, did you know that? His first and only true passion was sculpture, he looked down on painting. However, his greatest works are paintings...... because of patronage. The first artists were artists because they were employed to be artists. Michaelangelo was paid to paint the Sisteen chapel Ceiling and the back wall behind the alter. He was paid to make sculptures for nobility. Shakespere was paid to write plays. Leonardo DaVincci was paid to do nearly everything he did.


Back in the day of the greatest artists. Back when art as a 'profession' was first begining to take root in Europe... to be an artist meant that you were employed. Those portraits of Royalty were not painted because the artist saw Queen Elizabeth and gasped "I must paint you!" .... it is because Elizabeth hired them to do so. They were given room and board and their supplies would be paid for in many cases. Otherwise they were given a flat fee.


Even roman sculptures of the Ceasers were hired works. The greek sculptures as well. Artists pursued art as a passion yes. (Michaelangelo rarely finished a work because a new passion would take hold.) However, to be an artist, one had to be hired. Otherwise you would be a dead artist.


Even today, we hear things like "starving artist"


Hairstylists at a salon may be passionate about their work, but once they've left Beauty school, they charge more for their time.


Artists in the MOCA Museum are being paid to allow the museum to show their work. I can not tell you how hard it is to be an artist with a passion and hold another job. At another job you can not stop and run to your studio to paint. You have to use your spare time.


If you wish to be an artist.... then you will employ yourself. Or you will starve.


We do art for the passion. But if we want to continue to pursue our passion without the constraints of another job forcing us to only pursue it when we are tired and off work, then we will make that passion profitable. This is not the independant, freelance work of a fledgeling who may use watercolor but doesn't know the first thing about charcoal.


Without money, you can not purchase supplies. You can not pay rent, or anything else. Without supplies you can not pursue the passion. In everything there is a circle. But do not suppose to know how the mind of a passionate person works. I shall not starve in the real world, nor shall I starve in a game.

---


Yes, game mechanics are much different than real world.... but I suppose we lean on the old Supply and demand theory. You need to be green. I need your credits. I have the ability to make you green..... and we both can find someone else to supply our need. But you will always have to deal with the other person's price.


Creativity does not equal money. But handing my creativity to the world does. A seamstress charges for her work- even if someone else gave her the supplies.

A hairstylist charges even though all she uses is some water for a man's hair cut.

This is a trade economy in SWG


Time for money.

Time for object.

Object for money.

Object for object.


This is economy. This is trade.



I could not agree with this post more. I was not a business major, but I do know what supply and demand is.




__________________________________________________________

Finra Nova, Mandoviolist in RThe ForceR , Miss Lok 2004 (by default)
Owner of Novatech Furniture Designs and More! Coronet 1119 -4456
TooVee Orahno, Master Image Designer
"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house"-George Carlin
KnnOs
Wed May 12, 2004 8:53 am
#22
now hold on a second, I beleive the point of our original poster was that we should take something more than simply money from the profession, that we enjoy a job well done. I don't think that our friend is seriously suggesting we work for free, as others in this thread have. Should we get paid for our work? Beyond a doubt. Should we charge 100k every ten minutes? No chance! I charge 1k per change, 5k for every 15 minutes of consultation, and an additional 2k if you've been rude, and I think that's fair



KittyKat and Dora:
Tailoring and Salon
Proprietors: KittyKat and Dora'tilan --- Server: Ahazi --- Planet: Theed
City: Caserta---Coordinates: -579, 5559
*------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Specializing in custom orders, E-mail Dora't or KittyKat in-game for an appointment!
Image Design Available!
Myzia
Wed May 12, 2004 9:12 am
#23

OOC:


Not only am I an adult, but I am a comic book artist in Real Life with a BFA in Animation. Many people don't view those as valid art forms, but I do, so I understand your point on how art is received and compensated in Real Life.


I am not rich in Real Life. I am frugal with the money that I make so that I can pay for rent, for bills, and for food. I don't often buy new clothes unless they're on discount or I really need them. In fact, I put off buying SWG for quite some time because of the monthly fee.


That said, SWG is *not* Real Life, and I think it's silly to compare the two. The economy, for one, is completely different. The character I play is also quite different from me. She earns money more easily and spends it more freely than I ever would in reality. She owns a large house that she likes to fill with interesting, but useless, items, and she buys new clothes all the time! As she doesn't have to pay for much more than a city tax or maintenance on her house, she has the luxury of spending her money on decorations and the occasional weapon. After all, she certainly doesn't need to worry about buying groceries, about feeding or taking her pets to the vet, or saving her money for a future retirement or future family. (Not to mention paying off college loans!)


To enjoy this game for all that it offers, I pay 16 dollars a month (just like everyone else) so I feel that my character has as much right (as everyone else), to earn money to buy cool things in the game. Some people like to spend money on armor or weapons. Some spend it on buffs or player cities. What we choose to spend our in-game money on is our business. It is also our choice to charge what we want for our services. I am not willing to spend hours in a virtual tent working for tips so that my character can play a starving artist as well!


You may feel my prices are too high. That's fine. Image Design is a luxury, not a necesssity. You don't *need* a beard or green hair to enjoy the game. It simply adds to the experience. In fact, in some ways, that's not so different from Real Life after all. In New York, where I live, to get a makeover and new hairstyle it can cost anywhere from 100 to over 1000 dollars depending on where you go. You can choose to spend your money on a dramatic and fashionable new look or you can go to Cost Cutters and get a trim for 8 bucks. I'd like to think that the character I play is more an equivalent of a trendy New York Salon than a Cost Cutters. And my prices will reflect that.


(*off my soapbox*)


Myzia Zydian


Master Image Designer


Starsider


Valaxis
Wed May 12, 2004 9:35 am
#24


I'm not much of a talker, but I've been reading these forums for days trying to keep myself updated on this patch. As far as what I can read in to what our original poster was trying to say, I'm getting something like "I'm terrified to death that everyone's going to charge 100K, so I'm going to threaten the MID's so they won't do it." I don't necessarily see that he wanted us to work for nothing... Not a very good way to secure his financial state, though.


I chose to become an Image Designer when I found out about the patch. That was 3-4 weeks ago. After I mastered I was pretty excited, like most of the MIDs here say they were. When people are rude to an ID, it reallymakes you want to hide that tag. Not like people are willing to pay anything anyway. Everyone here who has stated that we are paid for our time is absolutely correct. Think about teachers. Do they produce anything tangible? Should we stop paying them just because they only give children something abstract? I think not. Maybe it's not a good example, but if you feel the desperate need to tie in SWG with real life there you go.


Now when I started Image Designer I already had millions and millions of credits.Like many other IDs that no one knows about, I did it for the sake of the profession. I would gladly charge nothing for a customer that was extremely kind and generous; this type of customer would tip if there was no charge anyway. The minute a customer gets rude they get slammed with a steep charge. To all those complaining about IDs being worthless: Do you know WHY that is? Because we're the only one that can supply you this service. We don't LIKE servicing rude and obnoxious people. Most of us do, however, take pleasure in servicing those who treat us with the respect we have deserved. Don't think we deserve any respect? Then don't expect to get your stats migrated... for a decent price anyway.


In summary, I think I speak for most people when I say the people who adjust well to this change, however good or bad it may be, won't have any problem getting stat migration or IDing done for a very reasonable price. Those who fight it or, worse, blame the IDers for what's happening, will have a tougher time.



Valaxis Payn - Master Tailor, Merchant, Teras Kasi Artist - Bria
Inyri Forge - Master Image Designer Musician and Entertainer, Dancer- Bria
What kind of person names their cat after their SWG server? Oh... **blush**

JuJutsu
Wed May 12, 2004 9:56 am
#25




gnometoes wrote:

As an artist and a business owner in real life, I am flabbergasted at the comments of some Image designers whining that their profession does not make enough money. The point of creativity is to enhance the visual landscape and provide a common thread between people. It is nothing more or less than a tool to bring people of different backgrounds together to identify with something unique within themselves. You are not here to make money with your profession, but as some artists will make money, so will you. Do not expect that the world will suddenly realize the importance of art, because they haven't yet and they won't. Your oppotunity is in the connections you make. Like no other profession you have the opportunity to get to know someone you might not have ever met. That relationship can be used in many ways. One of which is to make hundreds of thousands of credits matching folks with needs to those who can supply. This could be for relationships, for goods, for services, just about anything. This happens every day. It is called business. Your talents as a Master ID are interesting, now use them to accomplish something tangible.


I expect this thread will earn me lots of flames for three reasons.

1. there are a lot of non adults playing this game

2. there are alot of non artist ID's

3. there are alot of folks who don't understand business.


If you do not understand my post, feel free to flame me.



As a business owner I'm sure you're familiar with opportunity costs. IN SWG the most basic opportunity cost proves the adage that time = money. I don't expect the world to appreciate art. I expect the world to understand that if I can earn X dollars in Y minutes doing something else [such as running missions] then they must pay me at least X dollars to spend Y minutes doing image design on them.

SkyShot
Wed May 12, 2004 10:07 am
#26

Being mostly a reader also, I wanted to chip in on this.


Before I started playing SWG I was playing Horizons - one of the things I have repeatedly told my guild mates is how much I enjoy the vast variety of in the population of SWG. In Horizons everyone pretty much looked the same - yeah you could tweak things a little at character creation but you were done. Everyone always had the best armor they could, which, of course, all looked the same.


It may be a subconcious thing to a lot of the player base, but the continous variations of characters I see really make the game so much more enjoyable and surprising. I get a lot of pleasure out of going to the starport and seeing a small blonde woman wielding an axes almost her size, or stopping in the cantina and seeing a pair of pot-bellied wookies in chef's hats dancing around.


It is subtle but I feel ID'ers add more to the game than anyone realizes.


We should charge for all services, but it is always a balancing act, is it better to get 3 30K jobs in 2 hours or 10 4k jobs in 2 hours? Regardless of the price, you will always find someone willing to pay for a luxury but as the price climbs the potential client base drops. We also have the problem that ID'ing is looked at as a commodity - when you ID someone's hair you cannot experiment (like crafters) and have an amazing success which gives you a premium item. My style #29 will look just the same and last just as long as every other ID's #29. (yes I am ignoring the personal interaction aspect, that only comes into play once a client has picked an ID'er. No matter how outstanding an eye you have or how charming you are the potential client will not know that until after he or she engages you).


(This is why I don't post much, I have no idea where I am going with this or even how to stop, so I will just stop here)





SkyShot - Master Swordsman, Master Ranger
SkySpirit - Master ID, Master Dancer
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