Image Designer Archive
Thread: Image designer, Entertainer or Medic ?
Plagvreugd
Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:28 am
#14
I don't know if you know of the doping scandals in professional cycling, but do you remember the Tour de France a couple of years back when all those cyclists were arrested? Who was it that gave them the drugs that made em cycle faster? A doctor.
So must i understand that's the major part of your professionnal activities, like SWG doctors ?
I never claimed that it was a major part. Your claim that it's a minor part of the medical profession is irrelevant. I claim that there is a connection between SWG Doctors and real life doctors and that that connection is much stronger than the connection between SWG Image Designers and real life doctors. You say nothing that refutes that.
Yes, I can cure slashes, burns, poisoning, and disease. Even in Star Wars no doctor uses a silly hand gesture, but that's got more to do with artwork and animations that are oversimplified than with gameplay.
ID pods are also an oversimplification of a chiriurgical process IMHO.
I maintain that hair dye, lipstick, curlers, and a diet have nothing to do with a surgical process.
That's not a doctor, but a combat medic if I'm well informed. However, biological warfare still has more to do with medicine than lipstick. Virologists and bacteriologists (the people who know how to deal with the agents of biological warfare) often have a medical background.
[...]
Again, this refers to combat medics not doctors, I think, and I've gone into the little hand gesture thing. Still it's healing people, curing people, enhancing people's health by taking away disease and pain. That is what being a doctor is all about, not making people pretty.
Combat medics are an advanced Medic profession, as is Doctor. Aren't you a bit contradictory between the two answers ("biological warefare is medical practice" and "medical practice is about curing peoples") or i missed some point ?
I didn't make any claims about combat medics,you dragged them into this discussion.I never said that biological warfare is medical practice, if you are quoting me, get it right. I said that biological warfare has more to do with medicine than lipstick does, since the agents of biological warfare, typically viruses and bacteria are the work area of people who are more often than not trained in medicine. The science of medicine deals with health and its counterpart disease. It is not a contradiction that it should study disease in order to be able to ensure people are/stay/become healthy.
Again, this refers to combat medics not doctors, I think, and I've gone into the little hand gesture thing. Still it's healing people, curing people, enhancing people's health by taking away disease and pain. That is what being a doctor is all about, not making people pretty.
[...]
My point remains that injured characters go see a doctor in SWG, injured people go see a doctor in real life. Let's not make a fuss about trivial details like a pschiiting noise - that is what doctors do: they heal and cure people. The thought a doctor takes care of my body so everything to do with my body must be done by a doctor is simplistic and false.
A doctor's business is your health, not just your body. This might seem like a stupid distinction but it's not. A tattoo artist deals with your body too, a hair dresser too, or a pedicure, a masseur, a trainer, a prostitute, the list goes on and on. Some of this may be "way beyond the scope of modern medicine", hell, some is even way beyond the realm of possibilities,but not all of it is so bizarre and strange. Even in the future (or distant past) the most efficient way to lose weight is still a diet, the most efficient way to grow muscles is still to work out.
The crucial part of my argument, you leave unchallenged. Apparently you have nothing to say to my claim that in medicine everything revolves about a patient's health, not his physical appearance. Nor do you challenge my claim that most of the work we do has nothing to do with surgery.
Form 4 is personal trainer, not plastic surgeon. Don't be so quick to dismiss the thought that real life medicine and SWG medicine are so very different. After all, the devs did name the professions "Medic" and "Doctor", didn't they?
Sure, and plastio surgeon IS an Image Designer title, isnt it ? it's all in the name.
Alright, I will concede to this one: one of the four trees in the Image Designer profession is labeled plastic surgeon. Three others have nothing to do with surgery. A hairdresser, a tattoo artist or a personal trainer are, and this is as true in France as it is elsewhere, not medically trained personnel.
Still you haven't refuted my claim that real life doctors and SWG Doctors are very akin, nor have you made a strong case for your idea that real life doctors have much to do with SWG Image Designers.
How can you maintain that changing hair pigmentation has nothing to do with starwarsy hairdresser? Then why do I go to the hair dresser's to dye my hair and not to hospital?
Because "they" didn't dare to create a full featured Hairdresser profession.
That is not an answer to my question, and besides, if Image Design doesn't cover Hair dressing then I don't know what will. You claimed that changing hair pigmentation was some highly advanced kind of surgery, and thus something medical. I say, hair dye is something that even in the real world my hair dresser has no trouble with at all. If you claim that hair pigmentation and hairdresser are two completely different things, then please show me how but don't state it as a well known fact.
Also it's nice to see youdon't seem tobe able to refutemy claim that Image Designing has nothing to do with physiological functions.
It is very bad form to insult people by saying that their profession should be abolished and then, when people want to confront you with that, say that you didn't mean to be insulting. Well, you may not have meant it, but you have done it nonetheless.
Hey, I'm french.
I won't reply to that.
Admittedly it's not a very strong case, but there's always the argument that if it shouldn't be inthe Entertainer tree, then what should it be in? Even if Entertainer doesn't quite cover Image Design, it covers it a lot better than the other trees.
Well, opinions...
I presented four arguments in favour of having Image Designing together with the other Entertainer professions. I admit that the case I make is not the strongest, but I feel it is enough foundation for me to maintain my views. Yet you, who advocate a radical change in the game, have nothing to say to that, other than a rather elliptical sentence which presumably means that everyone is entitled to their opinion.
It's nice to know thatyou are a Protagorean, but I would maintain that an opinion requires reasons to support it, and that a reasonable man needs to assess arguments for and against his opinions, and has an episthemical duty to adjust his opinions according to the arguments he encounters. No doubt however, you would say, that this is just another opinion of mine.
Thewt of Infinity
Plagvreugd
Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:48 am
#15
Et comment est-ce que etre francais ce fait "OK" insulter les autres, comme les musiciens et les danceurs?
And how is it that being French makes it ok to insult others, like musicians and dancers?
Just thought I'd translate it for those who don't speak French. Good post there, Areli. We doctors couldn't get far without the support of the biochemists who devise new drugs, lab tests, et cetera, but in the end we just do different things.
Thewt of Infinity
Metis_Onea
Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:13 pm
#16
I think Neige is blurring the lines of real life and the game in her references to combat medics and doctors.
This is, afterall, a game. There are some similarities between the game and real life functions, but overall .. I'd say they are very different. I, for one, have never heard of anyone using the force. 
Image Designers in the game are for appearances; for vanity, essentially. That's our profession--to make people look good (or bad.. however he or shewants to look!). I don't think I would trust my doctor to do my hair or makeup. 
Frankly, as a pre-med student, I don't really trust myself either! 
Frankly, as a pre-med student, I don't really trust myself either! Anyway .. great posts Plagvreugd. 
You'll have to PM me with tips on how to survive medical school and the MCAT!
You'll have to PM me with tips on how to survive medical school and the MCAT!
Areli
Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:20 pm
#17
Plagvreugd wrote:
Et comment est-ce que etre francais ce fait "OK" insulter les autres, comme les musiciens et les danceurs?
And how is it that being French makes it ok to insult others, like musicians and dancers?
Just thought I'd translate it for those who don't speak French. Good post there, Areli. We doctors couldn't get far without the support of the biochemists who devise new drugs, lab tests, et cetera, but in the end we just do different things.
Thewt of Infinity
/grin. Thanks... our lab tests and drugs wouldn't be much good without people to administer them to the population, and give us the knowledge base to develop new ones.
Given that real life is totally interdependent, why do people get so annoyed if they can't all imagedesign or buff themselves in-game? /sigh
FuschiaD
Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:26 pm
#18
ID is, for all intents and purposes, a 'vanity' profession. We are not healers. We do not belong in the medic profession. End of story.
Olos_CH
Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:53 pm
#19
First of all, so everyone knows I'm bias, I really don't like Neige. She was /addignore'd withing seconds after meeting her because while I was grinding Image Design to get Master Entertainer (I'm in a band on Kauri and thought getting the Mandoviol would be good as I'm also a Master Musician) she came in, started /burping at me and telling me how I made her sick and how I was ruining the game for her. She (and this is simplified) basically told me that unless I was a Master ID, I shouldn't be in the Salons. Way to make a player new to the profession feel welcome. I wasn't even asked if I was a hologrinder or not.
Anyways, Image Designers I believe were intended to be more make-up artists than plastic surgeons. Many (most?) of the skills are related to changes in color. Tanning, eyeshadow, contact lenses, and hair and skin dye are all non-medical (Though I understand skin colors are often roleplayed as skin-grafting).
Think about it this way: You're a support class for musicians, dancers and tailors. Combat classes have medics to keep them on their feet, the entertainers have you guys to keep them prettied up. Just as a doctor offers buffs to enhance combatants skills, you guys use your mad skills to enhance entertainers performances.
That was the constructive part, below is more of a blam.
This is pretty much the dumbest proposal and most poorly supportedidea I've ever seen. Demanding realism from a profession that performs miracles with their only limit being a timer. In universe with laser guns and swords made of light and guys with robes with magic powers. Then the next move,to nearly insulting a doctors intelligence of his own profession (which is a long, tested path). Bloody hell, there's one type of medicine in the Star Wars universe if I'm not mistaken, Bacta. Real life and Star Wars are simply incomparable on so many levels. We're not playing Real Life: An Empire Divided, trust me. Several times she even goes out of her way to disprove her own points. And even decides to use her heritage to excuse how blatantly rude she is. Got news, I'm french too and am (normally) a rather nice fella. This person is just being bitchy.
Also, a combat medic in real life has first aid training, and that's about it. They don't hurl poisons on crowds of people. They run along beside other soldiers and if a squadmate goes down, they perform very basic and improvised CPR. They are not doctor in the least. This is another example of how you cannot compare both real life titles/professions to the ones in this game.
I give up, there is just too much stupid to cover with this persons comments. She deserves an award.
Syzygy-Gorath
Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:08 pm
#20
Image designers are a class unto themselves. We are not entertainers. We are not medics. We have no single real world equivalent. We are, as Voor so aptly pointed out, the redheaded stepchildren of the galaxies. The one thing we do have is our overriding love of our work, and of our customers—even the worst among them.
We don't fit any of the basic professions but in one thing. Our playstyle. In that we are most akin to entertainers, and if for no other reason that makes our place in the game fitting. We are with out brethren, those souls that act not for money—lord knows there's little enough to be made as an entertainer—but for love of the job. I once said on the dancer forum that I didn't charge nor expect to be tipper for healing as a combat medic. Any other way and I would feel like a healer whore. I stand by that statement, and I have no wish to see us moved into a materialistic, "functional" track.
I am proud to be a longstanding member of a profession often viewed as better served with NPCs, and removing me from my kin—dancers and musicians—would be the gravest insult that could possibly be visted upon me. I need no reason other than that to oppose any suggestion that image designers would be better served as advanced medics.
Plagvreugd
Sat Jun 19, 2004 2:08 am
#21
Metis_Onea wrote:
Anyway .. great posts Plagvreugd.
Get out while you can! 
Thewt
Metis_Onea
Sat Jun 19, 2004 7:39 am
#22
Plagvreugd wrote:
Metis_Onea wrote:
Anyway .. great posts Plagvreugd.
Get out while you can!
Thewt
Hahaha ... oh .. 
Plagvreugd
Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:50 am
#23
Ok, this is a bit off topic, but since we're future colleagues anyway, let me give you some thoughts as to what being a doctor entails:
- Long work hours
What do you mean, you're tired? You only worked 24 hours straight? - The pay is, contrary to popular belief, not that good.
In America the pay is better than over here, but the catch is that in America you have got to pay insane amounts for insurance against liability because patients, being the thankful and kindpeople that they are, will sue you every chance they get. - Patients are gross
Just because you wear a white coat does not mean that the diarrhea, the slime they cough up, their festering wounds don't make your stomach turn. For some reason, patients are more than happy to show you every filthy little skin condition that they have, they'll hand you their still warm morning urine in an open plastic bag. Be agile, or they will vomit on you. - Patients are stupid
If you can go to med school, you're probably among the more intelligent human beings to walk this Earth, I mean it's just 5% of people that manages a university level education, so congratulations. Furthermore, socio-economic status is related to health: poor people, from low background, with little education (it tends to come together as a package) get ill more often than rich, successful, educated people. It's not fair, but it's a fact of life nonetheless. This means that most of your time you'll be spending with people who make my dog look like Einstein. - Patients have no sense of humour
It's something about disease that makes people no fun at all. Don't expect anyone around you to laugh at your jokes, though that may also be because they don't understand them - Patients have never even heard of gratitude
Gratitude having more than two syllables makes it a very difficult word for most patients indeed (see above) but even then, most patients blame their disease on you and the fact that you can't fix everything with one miraculous wave of your hand (like in SWG) annoys them to no end. Don't count on a thank-you note, count on a lawsuit. - If you think patients are bad, try their families.
In every family there's always somecertified madmanwho will scream at you for not taking care of his aunt/father/granddad/whatever properly and who will have outrageous demands and ridiculous insights about how you should treat your patient. A special category is formed by parents, who, when their childgets ill, turn into freaking psychopaths and keep stalking you around the hospital. - In the end, you always fail
Every patient you ever treat will inevitably die at some point, and while you may find that's not entirely a bad thing (see above), it will still be failure. You loser! Even if you don't see it as a failure, the patient's family will. Don't look around, but run. They will come after you and they will have dogs with them. - Your superiors are mumbling inadequate fools.
Why this is so, is a closely kept mystery, but you'll find that in time of crises, you'll just have to do everything yourself. If you ask them for advice, the only answer you're ever going to get is: that is a very good question. It would make an interesting article if you could find that out. - Nurses exist to taunt you.
Nurses are very capable at performing duties that you have not asked them to do, yet when you do at some point ask them to do something, that ability seems to fly out the window. Whenever you want them to do something, they are always in a meeting or discussion or something, in any case, they can't help you. They are on the patient's side and thus your blood enemies. They will do anything they can to make your life miserable, like calling you for stupid trivial things at least fifty times per night. Carry a big stick and don't be afraid to use it, or else you'll never get anything done. - Your scientific curiosity will not be satiated.
Read any text book on medicine and just as it begins to get interesting it inevitably says: moreresearch needs to be done, before any conclusions can be made.
That's why I said: get out while you can. It's not worth it. Really, it's not. Become a garbage collector, a dog catcher,a librarian, anything but a doctor.
Before people start getting all worked up over this: it is a joke.(Told you patients have no sense of humour ) But seriously, if you want to know what it's like to be a doctor, there's the classic novel about doctoring called"The House of God", written by Samuel Shem - a book every doctor should know, it deals with internships, and believe me: it's all true. Then there's one of my personal favourites: anovel by a Dutch physician, Bert Keizer, translated into English under the title "Dancing with Mister D: Notes on Life and Death". It deals witha nursing home andhowwe all die and it's written quite beautifully. Both are available from Amazon and both are very worthwhile.
Thewt
Message Edited by Plagvreugd on 06-19-2004 11:07 PM
Xuus2000
Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:14 am
#24
Not to be mean to you, Neige, but I hope this thread has shown you that your one person crusade to change IDs and Medics has come to a grinding halt.
The community isn't going to back you, and without that, the idea won't ever reach fruition.
Neige
Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:07 am
#25
well, three things :
1/ About french and (bad)language you should see Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail, again.
1/ I love you too, , asI love all the zombie-grinders cramped up in ID tents.
2/ A constructive discussion is something i enjoy even if the majority is against the proposal i made. But that doesnt mean i'm wrong.
Jynn_Seidai
Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:31 pm
#26
Plagvreugd wrote:
Ok, this is a bit off topic, but since we're future colleagues anyway, let me give you some thoughts as to what being a doctor entails:
- Long work hours
What do you mean, you're tired? You only worked 24 hours straight? ........... <snip>
Thewt
Message Edited by Plagvreugd on 06-19-2004 11:07 PM
Well I for one found this hilarious. I grew up in a house of medical professionals, and almost made the mistake of following in their footsteps. Thank goodness I got out when I did, I don't think I can disagree with a single thing you wrote there.