Image Designer Archive
Thread: Odim's UI issues
Sir_Voor wrote:
Odim,
I'm starting a new post to have a discussion about your wishes, because I'm sure Kwee does not like her thread stolen.
I feel ID is a profession the requires the player to have RL artist and communication skills, and with you wishes none are needed at all.
Good idea, while I agree with your opinions on communications skills and all. That only works if communication skills are present on both ends of the equation. I've read posts here from other image designers, including from kwee herself stating that most people don't use proper grammar, capitalization, punctuation or ever real w0rdz for th4t m477er. Catch my drift?
Facts are people don't have 10 minutes to spend discussing their hairstyles, they want to know what we have to offer. Which I think is totally fair. This shouldn't have to be accomplished by a 3rd party site that steals in game immersion. Immersion that is being stressed so hard by the developers. BTW I don't think it was a hijacking of her thread, simply for the fact that it should've been addressed as an issue.
Message Edited by Odim on 03-03-2004 12:13 PM
Odim wrote:
First of all
"No, it isn't. But neither is showing them every change—I don't know about you, but when I go to get my hair cut I don't say "just show me everything."
This isn't real life. Second of all, how could they know what is available to them if we cannot show them all the options within a reasonable amount of time. Most people don't have all day to have something done. In fact 90% of all my customers are waiting in a line at the shuttleport. They don't want to play 20 questions. I fail to see how this suggestions reaps more harm than good. You won't be a clickbot you'll actually be benefiting your customer which is what its all about right?
Oookay. You brought up immersion. To me, immersion means mimicing a realistic manner as best as possible. That means asking the customer what they want and interacting with them, as a real-life hairdresser, physical trainer, plastic surgeon, etc would. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant—entirely possible, it happens to me a lot. But that's where I was coming from when I wrote what you quoted.
Now…on to your customers. If you're comfortable doing shuttle wait ID sessions, that's cool—to each his/her own. I won't do 'em. If a customer can't be bothered to commit to more than 10 minutes to get it right, it's not worth my time to even try. I know of IDs who've been turned into clickbots by former MID customers, or customers with former MID significant others. What you're suggesting would have the same effect, but for everyone. This may make it faster for the customer, but it will not benefit them. In the same way that I couldn't even begin to tell an armorsmith how to experiment on that suit of advanced composite I want to buy, most people only have a general grasp of how to put together a proportional face.
I do not want my customers telling me how to do my job—I want them to tell me what the finished product should resemble. That's the fun of this profession—working with a client to acheive their vision…not being an interactive chargen process.
End rant. (And I do apologize for that—it's really not you I'm annoyed at, it's some of the more demanding, less understanding customers…3 clicks less than max my… *wanders off grumbling*)
I am sure I wont have problems meeting others needs, aswell.
Syzygy-Gorath wrote:
(From the other thread…)
Oookay. You brought up immersion. To me, immersion means mimicing a realistic manner as best as possible. That means asking the customer what they want and interacting with them, as a real-life hairdresser, physical trainer, plastic surgeon, etc would. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant—entirely possible, it happens to me a lot. But that's where I was coming from when I wrote what you quoted.Now…on to your customers. If you're comfortable doing shuttle wait ID sessions, that's cool—to each his/her own. I won't do 'em. If a customer can't be bothered to commit to more than 10 minutes to get it right, it's not worth my time to even try. I know of IDs who've been turned into clickbots by former MID customers, or customers with former MID significant others. What you're suggesting would have the same effect, but for everyone. This may make it faster for the customer, but it will not benefit them. In the same way that I couldn't even begin to tell an armorsmith how to experiment on that suit of advanced composite I want to buy, most people only have a general grasp of how to put together a proportional face.I do not want my customers telling me how to do my job—I want them to tell me what the finished product should resemble. That's the fun of this profession—working with a client to acheive their vision…not being an interactive chargen process.End rant. (And I do apologize for that—it's really not you I'm annoyed at, it's some of the more demanding, less understanding customers…3 clicks less than max my… *wanders off grumbling*)
Odim wrote:First of all"No, it isn't. But neither is showing them every change—I don't know about you, but when I go to get my hair cut I don't say "just show me everything."This isn't real life. Second of all, how could they know what is available to them if we cannot show them all the options within a reasonable amount of time. Most people don't have all day to have something done. In fact 90% of all my customers are waiting in a line at the shuttleport. They don't want to play 20 questions. I fail to see how this suggestions reaps more harm than good. You won't be a clickbot you'll actually be benefiting your customer which is what its all about right?
"To me, immersion means mimicing a realistic manner as best as possible" - Immersion would me to be totally engrossed in your surroundings, In this case, Star Wars Galaxies. Having to leave the game totally ruins it.
"If a customer can't be bothered to commit to more than 10 minutes to get it right, it's not worth my time to even try." - I feel any customer deserves my time reguardless of how much time he/she has. I don't take it as a personal insult, some people don't have all day to play.
"What you're suggesting would have the same effect, but for everyone. This may make it faster for the customer, but it will not benefit them. In the same way that I couldn't even begin to tell an armorsmith how to experiment on that suit of advanced composite I want to buy, most people only have a general grasp of how to put together a proportional face." - How could it possibly not benefit them, The customer is asking you to change them, to look how they want, not what you feel they are best suited for. Its this mentality that puts most people off from getting ID'd in the first place.
"most people only have a general grasp of how to put together a proportional face" - Very generalized assumption.
I feel that most image designers want the power to do what they want or what they feel looks best, that seems to me more like ego then customer service. You are providing a service after all, you don't go to buy a new car, and describe it to them, you look at all they have to offer on the lot. As for the previous analogy about going to the salon, and describing what you want, you know those little books with hundreds of hairstyles in them, what do you think those are for? ............... Again this isn't anything against you personally but I can't help but feeling that the only reasons I'm hearing against thisare selfish.
Message Edited by Odim on 03-03-2004 11:34 AM
and the other stuff is easy, more chin, taller, fatter, and no can't do red horns smileyindifferent:
Odim wrote:
I guess my idea of clickbot is different than yours, I think my idea would currently involve less clicking than armorsmith,weaponsmith, doctor, or architect. They have to click alot more then we would. Anyway, discussion has moved to a different thread.
Ok. I have copied this over from the other thread since the discussion has moved. You still haven't answered my main question about what an image designer would do that would not be done more efficiently by just having a user terminal so that players can do the changes themselves. Comparing image design to these other professions (which have other things involved like resource gathering and experimentation to make them more challenging) is not really reasonable. Most image designers go into the profession for the creative and social aspects of the profession, which makes it different from most professions. Doing anything that would remove those two aspects would be a mistake.
Sir_Voor wrote:
Odim,
I'm starting a new post to have a discussion about your wishes, because I'm sure Kwee does not like her thread stolen.
Gyopi wrote:
Odim wrote:
I guess my idea of clickbot is different than yours, I think my idea would currently involve less clicking than armorsmith,weaponsmith, doctor, or architect. They have to click alot more then we would. Anyway, discussion has moved to a different thread.
Ok. I have copied this over from the other thread since the discussion has moved. You still haven't answered my main question about what an image designer would do that would not be done more efficiently by just having a user terminal so that players can do the changes themselves. Comparing image design to these other professions (which have other things involved like resource gathering and experimentation to make them more challenging) is not really reasonable. Most image designers go into the profession for the creative and social aspects of the profession, which makes it different from most professions. Doing anything that would remove those two aspects would be a mistake.
Odim wrote:
I feel that most image designers want the power to do what they want or what they feel looks best, that seems to me more like ego then customer service. You are providing a service after all, you don't go to buy a new car, and describe it to them, you look at all they have to offer on the lot. As for the previous analogy about going to the salon, and describing what you want, you know those little books with hundreds of hairstyles in them, what do you think those are for? ............... Again this isn't anything against you personally but I can't help but feeling that the only reasons I'm hearing against thisare selfish.
Message Edited by Odim on 03-03-2004 11:34 AM
Gyopi wrote:
Odim wrote:
I feel that most image designers want the power to do what they want or what they feel looks best, that seems to me more like ego then customer service. You are providing a service after all, you don't go to buy a new car, and describe it to them, you look at all they have to offer on the lot. As for the previous analogy about going to the salon, and describing what you want, you know those little books with hundreds of hairstyles in them, what do you think those are for? ............... Again this isn't anything against you personally but I can't help but feeling that the only reasons I'm hearing against thisare selfish.
Message Edited by Odim on 03-03-2004 11:34 AM
Of course it is partially selfish because I am playing this game for my own enjoyment! Only considering the customer's enjoyment and not my own in a *game* does not make sense. I might as well just get a night time job and do some more work if that was the case. At least then I would make some more real money instead of fake credits.
Odim wrote:
"To me, immersion means mimicing a realistic manner as best as possible" - Immersion would me to be totally engrossed in your surroundings, In this case, Star Wars Galaxies. Having to leave the game totally ruins it.
Okay, different deffinitions. That's fine…we're all coming at this from different angles—that's what makes this sort of discussion worthwhile, and helpful to the community in general.
"If a customer can't be bothered to commit to more than 10 minutes to get it right, it's not worth my time to even try." - I feel any customer deserves my time reguardless of how much time he/she has. I don't take it as a personal insult, some people don't have all day to play.
Again, a difference in philosophy. Yes, many changes can be made in a relatively short period of time. However, in my experiences, most sessions other than a "I want the Flirty Flip" will take longer than a shuttle wait. Most shuttleport customers aren't willing to miss their shuttle, and neither am I. I'll offer to schedule a time to meet with them and give them the full treatment, but I won't do half a job, hurried and poorly done on the spot. To me that's better customer service. You may not see it my way, and that's fine—as I said, it's those differences that lend us strength as a community.
"What you're suggesting would have the same effect, but for everyone. This may make it faster for the customer, but it will not benefit them. In the same way that I couldn't even begin to tell an armorsmith how to experiment on that suit of advanced composite I want to buy, most people only have a general grasp of how to put together a proportional face." - How could it possibly not benefit them, The customer is asking you to change them, to look how they want, not what you feel they are best suited for. Its this mentality that puts most people off from getting ID'd in the first place.
I'll say it again. When I go to an armorsmith I don't—and can't—tell them how to experiment my advanced composite. When I go to a weaponsmith I don't—and can't—tell them how to experiment my advanced DX2. When I buy buffs from a doctor I don't—and can't—tell them which packs to use. When I buy buffs from a dancer I don't—and can't—tell them which dances to do. If I were to try to tell any of these people how to do their jobs, say if I could see the armorsmith's crafting window and say "put a point there!" I would end up with a sub-par product. I am no different from any of these professions. I provide a service. You tell me what you want the end result to be, and let me worry about the process of getting there. That's my job.
"most people only have a general grasp of how to put together a proportional face" - Very generalized assumption.
Yes…but I left it pretty open ended on purpose. Some people are better than others, some are worse. And it really is a matter of personal preference. But there are certain accepted universals regarding ratio ranges—for instance, nose_protrusion 255 and chin 0 is not a good combination. As an image designer it's my job to know and look out for these things, not my client's.
I feel that most image designers want the power to do what they want or what they feel looks best, that seems to me more like ego then customer service. You are providing a service after all, you don't go to buy a new car, and describe it to them, you look at all they have to offer on the lot. As for the previous analogy about going to the salon, and describing what you want, you know those little books with hundreds of hairstyles in them, what do you think those are for? ............... Again this isn't anything against you personally but I can't help but feeling that the only reasons I'm hearing against thisare selfish.
Do I want the power to do what I feel is right? Yes, I do. Why? Because I'm supposed to be the expert. It's my job to know these things. Once again, I don't tell the armorsmith how to make my armor—just what I want the end result to be. Same goes for image design. If they want to look at all the choices just look around at the other players. Look at the websites. As a tailor I won't make one of every shirt just so a client can decide, and as an image designer I won't offer all the hairstyles. There are other resources available for that—it's not a good use of my time or theirs.
Are my reasons selfish? Maybe, from a certain point of view. I want my profession to mean something. I want people to come to me because I have a reputation for being good at what I do, not because I'm a walking, talking ID vendor. What you suggest would in large part remove the requirement for skill and knowledge of the profession. It plays into the hologrinder mentality that master box = mastery of a profession. I don't believe this is true, and I don't support ideas that lend it credence.
Message Edited by Odim on 03-03-2004 11:34 AM
Odim wrote:
Well doing this wouldn't remove any aspects of the game, because A) you are a person and you can use this feature as you see fit, if you only wanted to show them two hairstyles just click on the two you want to show them, you do have your own free will right? If they want to see them all, don't you feel they are entitled to that?
Almost everyone feels that they can do almost every job best themselves. That is human nature. If you give people the option to see everything then in most cases they *will* want to see everything if it is easy to do. Why wouldn't they? It seems to me that we play this game for very different reasons. For you having a satisfied customer seems to be the most important thing and that is what makes you happy. For me it is being creative and having a strong *two way* interaction with the customer. I am sure that with your commitment to customer service, the people who are image designed by you are very satisfied. My customers are also usually very satisfied with the way I do things (the really happy customer who introduced me to a friend of his as a godess amoung image designers was overstating it by a lot, but I was flattered.
) Anyway, I would not like anyone to change the game so that it is harder for me to play it in the way tha I enjoy.