Force Sensitive Archive
Thread: 30:1 Is a Good Ratio
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WayneInAustin
Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:19 am
#1
Please read this entire note before turning red and exploding.
I see people complaining everywhere about the 30:1 ratio being a problem, being a ridiculous ratio, etc.
But it is NOT a ridiculous ratio... it is just a way to slow down the masses of people that want to become Jedi immediately.
I am only halfway through the grind, am NOT having fun, but I also don't want to see everyone get Jedi with only 2 or 3 weeks of grinding.
The real problem is the ridiculous "kill grind" method of becoming Jedi.
People should be more displeasedthat the only way for a combat character to become Jedi is to go out and kill, kill, kill, kill.. then kill some more. The ratio is just a controlthat is used to slow down this method.But if the pathto become Jedi was actuallyFUN, then we wouldn't care so much how long thepath was.
In my opinion, the real way to Jedi SHOULD have been a series (possibly a LONG series) of quests. Imagine the Sarquillo quest to bring back the base commander as one such quest. It was tough, but doable with a little thinking. Or the Mellichae exit quest as another. Imagine a series of such quests, each one different, but each one difficult. And I don't mean questslike the Rebel Theme Park... that was the most long-lasting boring series of crap I ever went through.What I mean isvarious missions where a little thinking is required.
I think the Devs replaced one crappy system (holo-grinding) with another and we're stuck with it.
But no matter what system was (or is) put in place, it should NOT be "grind for 2 or 3 weeks and *poof* you're a Jedi".
DoctorBill
Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:34 am
#2
I agree, and the space quests are kind of fun, the problem I think is that they are trying to fix so much stuff, stop exploiting and still create content, what ever happen to the monthly quests? Some people liked those, other thought it was to difficult, so I think they stopped doing them.
Its very tough to please all the people all the time, but they cannot, you never can?
I think the game has much potential, but I think this game may be a sinking ship to many, valcyn has lost many veteran players due to boredom and bugs, and empty promises.
I would think that combat revamp will help, but who wants to PvP when you dont get any exp for it? I would suggest exp for that, but then people will just kill thier alts or what not and exploit exp that way.
One job I seriously wouldnt want is to be a developer for SWG!! Maybe if I understood what it takes to code programs and what not, it would be slightly easier, but I have no clue, great ideas are only great if they are even possible, and I also think SOE is having trouble with server stability, I dont think they anticipated this much lag in the game as they keep adding stuff, and it may be to late for funding to get better servers? if thats the case, we could be in trouble.
Joukahainen
Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:42 am
#3
I agree. I think there should also be a system for crafters, healers, and entertainers to take advantage of too. I almost think it would be cool to have a series of quests for each "jedi profession" (skill tree). That way if a doctor wanted the force healer profession he could quest for it. But, he would not ever get a saber unless he did the saber profession quest. This way maybe we would see some different types of FS people. Such as healers... However, they would still have the possibility of ending up on the terminals if they use force powers near people.
Camrux
Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:02 am
#4
I disagree, 30:1 is outlandish for a conversion ratio, why do they need to have a double gated system that puts casual players at a distinct disadvantage. I have pretty much done it all in SWG and Jedi is endgame....I understand thatand it should be fairly difficult to get there.
That said it would take me well over 2 years just doing 10 lairs of Stalkers per day to attain enough XP to get to my Padawan quests. That's too much IMHO.
As it sits now I will have the last unlock I need for Combat prowess 4/4/4/4 - Enhanced Reflexes 4/4/0/0 sometime in Mid April, I started going after Jedi in Early November. 6 months is a reasonable amount of time to work towards a goal such as this. Having these ratios at such levels puts more people out of reach of Jedi than I suspect was intended. Also keep in mind that the Jedi grind is no bed of daisies either.
I understand why there are these XP requirements, it's for the super grinders who do nothing other than park thierbehinds in front of a PC and grind all freakin day. Well, regardless of what gates they putonJedithese types are going to get there, even if the ratio was 60:1.
Wayne you make some good points in regards to the quest system and I wholeheartedly agree that an entirely quest system would have been better in the begining. But you are right we are stuck with it.
Nobody can be Jedi in 2-3 weeks of grinding, it takes at least 18-20 weeks just to unlock the 6 trees just so you can put XP in all of them to begin with.
Joukahainen
Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:10 am
#5
Camrux wrote:I disagree, 30:1 is outlandish for a conversion ratio, why do they need to have a double gated system that puts casual players at a distinct disadvantage. I have pretty much done it all in SWG and Jedi is endgame....I understand thatand it should be fairly difficult to get there.That said it would take me well over 2 years just doing 10 lairs of Stalkers per day to attain enough XP to get to my Padawan quests. That's too much IMHO.As it sits now I will have the last unlock I need for Combat prowess 4/4/4/4 - Enhanced Reflexes 4/4/0/0 sometime in Mid April, I started going after Jedi in Early November. 6 months is a reasonable amount of time to work towards a goal such as this. Having these ratios at such levels puts more people out of reach of Jedi than I suspect was intended. Also keep in mind that the Jedi grind is no bed of daisies either.I understand why there are these XP requirements, it's for the super grinders who do nothing other than park thierbehinds in front of a PC and grind all freakin day. Well, regardless of what gates they putonJedithese types are going to get there, even if the ratio was 60:1.Wayne you make some good points in regards to the quest system and I wholeheartedly agree that an entirely quest system would have been better in the begining. But you are right we are stuck with it.Nobody can be Jedi in 2-3 weeks of grinding, it takes at least 18-20 weeks just to unlock the 6 trees just so you can put XP in all of them to begin with.
I think the idea was to discourage all but the most stubborn people from becoming a jedi. Then once those people become a jedi the huge grind ahead of them will discourage even more from playing that jedi often. To top it all off they threw in the BH missions to take care of the last group of extremely stubborn players who continue to persist. haha. They designed the system to prevent jedi. Not make it a "end game" goal. They don't want people to leave the game because they "beat it". They want people to continue to exist in this world they've created.
The Dev's NEVER intended many people to obtain jedi. But, after making the profession available they opened up a big can of worms that they now have to try and get the cap back on. In short, they underestimated the number of players who had enough resolve to attain it. Just my opinion of course.
JediMasterZero
Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:08 am
#6
Good thoughts and posts, all. I myself am a veteran player, having been here since day uno...and all this time I've had but one goal in mind - to become a Jedi. I vehemently argued against the Hologrind...it was not Jedi-like in even the least. I had hoped, as had everyone prior to the hologrind, that there would actually be a system to attain your Jedi character. Some of those original posts in the Jedi forum were great..."you must tip at least 500c when you're listening to or watching an entertainer", "curses and leet speak hurt your chances of becoming a Jedi", and the likes. We all believed it was something like that at the time, and we all played like Ladies and Gentlemen.
Then the Dark Times came with the release of the Holocrons, just over a year ago I believe. That was when we all realized the Devs lied to us...we realized that up until that point, it wasn't even possible to become a Jedi. And we were all thoroughly displeased with the "Organic system" that the Devs so highly touted. Organic. Ha. I'm still a bit bitter about that. And now the Village. While I think the village is better than the Hologrind, I'm still a firm believer that the Devs should've had their $hit together BEFORE the damn game was launched. Instead, we all funded their experiments on us.
30:1 isn't great for a conversion ratio, but it isn't bad. I'd be happier with 20:1, that'd at least give us 45k FSxp for capping our weapons.
Bottom line, if the Devs had half a brain between all of them, they'd have made an absolute time gate. Such as you need to be playing the game for 9 months to unlock yourPadawan/Jedi character. That way you force people to play the game and build their characters the way they *want* them, and then you reward them as such with a Jedi. And those folks that don't want to be a Jedican continue about their merry ways. And those of us that do, wouldstart down the Jedi Path. Simple. Casual gamers and power gamers alike would all be subjected to the same thing.There's no possible way to speed itup. That's how it should have been. Yes, there would be the chance for a large amount of Jedi...but like any other profession, people would tire of it and go back to what they *want* to play.
/sigh
If I didn't love this game so much, I think I'd sue the Devs formental and emotional abuse.
volta
Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:11 am
#7
WayneInAustin wrote:
Please read this entire note before turning red and exploding.
I see people complaining everywhere about the 30:1 ratio being a problem, being a ridiculous ratio, etc.
But it is NOT a ridiculous ratio... it is just a way to slow down the masses of people that want to become Jedi immediately.
I am only halfway through the grind, am NOT having fun, but I also don't want to see everyone get Jedi with only 2 or 3 weeks of grinding.
The real problem is the ridiculous "kill grind" method of becoming Jedi.
People should be more displeasedthat the only way for a combat character to become Jedi is to go out and kill, kill, kill, kill.. then kill some more. The ratio is just a controlthat is used to slow down this method.But if the pathto become Jedi was actuallyFUN, then we wouldn't care so much how long thepath was.
In my opinion, the real way to Jedi SHOULD have been a series (possibly a LONG series) of quests. Imagine the Sarquillo quest to bring back the base commander as one such quest. It was tough, but doable with a little thinking. Or the Mellichae exit quest as another. Imagine a series of such quests, each one different, but each one difficult. And I don't mean questslike the Rebel Theme Park... that was the most long-lasting boring series of crap I ever went through.What I mean isvarious missions where a little thinking is required.
I think the Devs replaced one crappy system (holo-grinding) with another and we're stuck with it.
But no matter what system was (or is) put in place, it should NOT be "grind for 2 or 3 weeks and *poof* you're a Jedi".
They are part of the quest you do "to" become Jedi, what are you talking about ? We need to do these kind of quests to unlock the trees..
Grinding the FS XP is just another way to slow down the jedi population, imagine we didnt have that? Every Top Dik and Harry would be Jedi.
TheOzzmanDPG
Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:14 am
#8
30:1 is the perfect number. It means that people will get angry and people will quit trying for Jedi. Again, this system is better than mindlessly grinding xp for professions we didn't even want. With this sytsem, you can be whatever profession you want and still obtain a jedi. There is also the fact that there are quests involved with this system, that in iteself is an improvement. I would much rather do quests and grind mindless xp than just mindlessly grinding xp.
DRWolfe
Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:14 am
#9
30:1 is a horrible ratio. All it does is keep the casual players from becoming a Jedi and enjoying that part of the game. The huge ratio does nothing to keep the powergrinders and people with a ton of time on their hands from getting a Jedi in the least possible amount of time, it just punishes people with less time to play, even though we all pay the same amount each month.
Powergrinders with tons of time finish the XP in less than three weeks, then gripe about the phases because they "have nothing to do", while everyone else grinds constantly, not enjoying the rest of the game, and will still not finish a trees worth in the 3 weeks.
Sure, we don't have to grind, no one is forcing us to, but you know most everyone going for Jedi is, because they want to play that part of the game without waiting years to do so. My grind will take me many more months, because I have less time to play than some others. I'm just hoping the recent solo-group nerf and the coming combat changes do not extend that grind any further by making it harder for me to get the XP I need.
It's too late now, but a timed quest system would have been better, and though more Jedi would enter the game sooner, it wouldn't actually increase the numbers we'll be eventually seeing, and it wouldn't reward power-grinding while punishing the casual player like the current system does.
But, since this is the system we have, we're stuck with it. Changing the ratios now would be unfair to those who already ground out a ton of XP. A solution would be to make sure the ratios change to something more appropriate once the combat changes go in. Since combat will be changing, the ratios can change then without cheating those who have gone before.
Powergrinders with tons of time finish the XP in less than three weeks, then gripe about the phases because they "have nothing to do", while everyone else grinds constantly, not enjoying the rest of the game, and will still not finish a trees worth in the 3 weeks.
Sure, we don't have to grind, no one is forcing us to, but you know most everyone going for Jedi is, because they want to play that part of the game without waiting years to do so. My grind will take me many more months, because I have less time to play than some others. I'm just hoping the recent solo-group nerf and the coming combat changes do not extend that grind any further by making it harder for me to get the XP I need.
It's too late now, but a timed quest system would have been better, and though more Jedi would enter the game sooner, it wouldn't actually increase the numbers we'll be eventually seeing, and it wouldn't reward power-grinding while punishing the casual player like the current system does.
But, since this is the system we have, we're stuck with it. Changing the ratios now would be unfair to those who already ground out a ton of XP. A solution would be to make sure the ratios change to something more appropriate once the combat changes go in. Since combat will be changing, the ratios can change then without cheating those who have gone before.
Eked
Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:20 am
#10
If youre just a causal player dont even bother becoming a jedi.... the grind will be waaaaay to long for you... its evenlong for power gamers.
And I for one am glad, I dont wanna see 50 casual jedis running around cnet... go buy KOTOR or Jedi Academy to get your jedi (quick)fix.
Cafa
Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:26 am
#11
If you want to gate Jedi inititates in the current system, require 1 crafting column for jedi (minimum) and 2 crafting columns to qualify for Master Light Sabre.
Most people cannot comprehend the work it takes to accomplish a crafting column without free unlocks. I currrently am grinding 7 toons through12 crafting columns. Anyone care to do the math on that? 
Fivo Asia
JediMasterZero
Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:30 am
#12
Cafa wrote:
If you want to gate Jedi inititates in the current system, require 1 crafting column for jedi (minimum) and 2 crafting columns to qualify for Master Light Sabre.
Most people cannot comprehend the work it takes to accomplish a crafting column without free unlocks. I currrently am grinding 7 toons through12 crafting columns. Anyone care to do the math on that?
Fivo Asia
Sure, the math on that is as follows:
You = Crazy.
WayneInAustin
Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:56 am
#13
DRWolfe wrote:
30:1 is a horrible ratio. All it does is keep the casual players from becoming a Jedi and enjoying that part of the game. The huge ratio does nothing to keep the powergrinders and people with a ton of time on their hands from getting a Jedi in the least possible amount of time, it just punishes people with less time to play, even though we all pay the same amount each month.
Powergrinders with tons of time finish the XP in less than three weeks, then gripe about the phases because they "have nothing to do", while everyone else grinds constantly, not enjoying the rest of the game, and will still not finish a trees worth in the 3 weeks.
Sure, we don't have to grind, no one is forcing us to, but you know most everyone going for Jedi is, because they want to play that part of the game without waiting years to do so. My grind will take me many more months, because I have less time to play than some others. I'm just hoping the recent solo-group nerf and the coming combat changes do not extend that grind any further by making it harder for me to get the XP I need.
It's too late now, but a timed quest system would have been better, and though more Jedi would enter the game sooner, it wouldn't actually increase the numbers we'll be eventually seeing, and it wouldn't reward power-grinding while punishing the casual player like the current system does.
But, since this is the system we have, we're stuck with it. Changing the ratios now would be unfair to those who already ground out a ton of XP. A solution would be to make sure the ratios change to something more appropriate once the combat changes go in. Since combat will be changing, the ratios can change then without cheating those who have gone before.
Another poster above also mentioned that this works against the casual gamer. Iagree.Unfortunately, I cannot imagine a plan that does NOT. How can you have something that works for casual players that power gamers can't exploit faster? The gated concept wouldntworkthat well, because then you have a mass of players at every "gate" or "level" (or "phase"... call it what you will) and at the end you would have a mass of players, both casual and power, becoming Jedi all at once. That is, you either slow it down and let everyone become Jedi all at once, or you cater to the power gamer. I'm not sure one is any better than the other.
There was an excellent post a while back on another forum from someone who was quitting that talked about what this game is becoming with the expanding Jedi population. He made many good points about why an unlimited Jedi population was a bad thing. For example, a world of many Jedi's will create a PvP rift that pretty much leaves the non-Jedi out. While MANY people bought the game with the idea of becoming Jedi, it is that very scenario that is ruining SWG. However, SWGwould lose a hugeamount of paying customers if they put a hard cap on the number of Jedis. It's a tough situation.
I consider myself a casual gamer, but I am probably somewhere in-between. I probably play 15-20 hours a week. I should make Initiate in another couple of months. Since I only started FS grinding(with no free unlocks) about 3 months ago, I figure thats about right. Thats why I feel like the 30:1 ratio is ok. I feel it is very similar to the grind toMaster Rifleman back when it was very, very difficult (no armor, no buffs, 3.5x melee penalty, no bikes, etc.). It was very tough, but I felt like I had earned itwhen I got there.
And as another poster also said: Just My Opinion.
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