Force Sensitive Archive
Thread: It really sucks to be a casual gamer....
Before I get started I want to make it clear that I’m not attempting to flame anyone, I’m simply stating my opinion.
I sorta agree with Barb Wire in the statement of ‘Jedi was never meant to be for the "casual gamer"’. Take a look at the quote from the Jedi FAQ (Clicky at the bottom of this post) below, directly from the horses mouth (SOE).
Something I don’t think a lot of people understand is what a MMORPG is. It’s nothing like a console game or a first person shooter, strategy game or any other non MMORPG type game. The game continues to grow even if you are not in the game. This is something that I had to learn long long ago playing the text based MMORPGs, (Mutants, Swords of Chaos, Kryanda, Trade Wars – when it went multiplayer and a handful of MUDs)
When I speak of a total random method to become Jedi I don’t mean the Holo method, what’s random about mastering 32 professions? When I say random I mean – I could do XYZ and then get a visit from a ‘force sensitive’ person, and my wife could do XYZ and not get the visit. If I found a Jedi and asked them how they did it (assuming the random thing was in effect) and I went and did everything they did and became a Jedi that is not random. If the method was this way no one would be ‘grinding’ anything just play the game as it was intended to be played.
After helping my wife play and seeing how excited she was when she mastered the medic profession, and how excited she was when I took her hunting on various planets it clicked. Most people are so into the ‘grind’ that they don’t slow down (I’m included in this group of people) to enjoy the game.
I think SOE was probably surprised/shocked/floored/impressed at how fast people were mastering the elite professions when Dr Buffs/Armor/weapons got as good as they are now. I think back to when I started playing SWG I knew nothing of the game other than the name and what I read on the Internet about it. I could never imagine being able to Master any of the Elite Professions in a matter of a day or two.
Let’s take a look at how obtaining Jedi has changed:
Initially Jedi was totally unknown, I took a look back at the Jedi forums went as far back as I could go – 07/02/03. The posts are fun to read, found a lot of people screaming at SOE asking for the ‘Path’ to become Force Sensitive. Here are some quotes from the Jedi FAQ (Clicky at the bottom of this post)
Will there be a numerical limit on the number of Jedi allowed on each server? No. We're not using artificial means such as quotas or caps to limit the Jedi population. We're designing an organic system that will allow the Jedi population to fluctuate over time. Will only the extremely lucky or hardcore players get to play Jedi? Jedi status is not determined based on "luck." However, Jedi is considered an advanced objective to achieve within the game. Casual and hardcore players alike can reach this objective because the path is different for each player. However, it might take a casual player considerably longer to unlock a Force Sensitive character slot.Posted on 11-07.2003 a post from Q-3PO - Clicky at the bottom of the post
A long time ago, in this very galaxy... I made a promise to you all that you would be the first to know when the first force sensitive slot was unlocked.
It is my privilege to announce that this monumental event has happened today.
Message Displayed: "IMPERIAL COMMUNICATION FROM THE REGIONAL GOVERNOR: Lord Vader has detected a vergence in the force."
I didn’t read through the posts enough to determine when the ‘Holocron’ method was discovered or let out of the bag but I’ll say the path was definitely known at Christmas with the Christmas Holocron.
Everyone that wanted to become Jedi started doing the profession grind. SOE probably wasn’t too concerned about the amount of Jedi in the game initially when they considered 1) how long it took for the 1st Jedi to appear in the game and 2) how long it would take to master the amount of professions needed. Then the Doctor Buffs, high end weapons and armor started popping up as people started to master doctor/weaponsmith/armorsmith.
People started mastering professions faster at this point so SOE increased the silent professions (didn’t they do this twice?)
So now SOE was faced with the possibility of a large amount of Jedi appearing in the game. Players were using the ‘Solo Groups’ to 1) earn money and 2) get massive experience very easy. Players were not playing the game as SOE had hoped. SWG is a MMORPG there would be team work, people should get a benefit of fighting with groups to get good loot drops.
So SOE was probably faced with a decision. Not only how to change the combat system but how to change the way Jedi is achieved to slow things down a bit.
They probably figured they could do a Jedi revamp faster than a combat upgrade. I don’t know for sure but I would imagine SOE has multiple teams working on various projects. I imagine there is one team to work on the Jedi revamp, one team to work on JTL and another to work on combat upgrades.
So first we had the Jedi Revamp – this slowed the rate of Jedi in the game to a certain degree.
Second they released JTL so maybe those that were getting tired of grinding out Jedi would spend some time in space – this worked BTW, maybe didn’t work as long as they hoped, but it did get a lot of people off the ground into space.
Third they fixed the solo group pay outs. I personally feel this was to get more people into space and off the ground among other reasons (stabilize the economy etc…)
I personally feel everything that has occurred and will occur in the near future is geared to 1) make the game more challenging (which in turn will make it more fun) for everyone playing 2) Slow down the rate of Jedi popping into the game.
I believe SOE took a huge risk when they did the Jedi Revamp, I believe the combat upgrade is going to be even a greater risk. There will people don’t like the change and will probably quit. It’s human nature to not like change. Like with other MMORPG games, it takes time to advance in the game. This is not a strategy game, a flight sim, a first person shooter.
Jedi FAQ
Message Edited by Nohoah on 12-28-200412:08 PM
Message Edited by Nohoah on 12-28-2004 12:09 PM
Nohoah wrote:
DRWolfe wrote:
Grrrr. Jedi is meant for anyone who pays $15 a month to play this game, which I believe we all do.I found a Jedi FAQ that SOE put out shortly after SWG was released:Will only the extremely lucky or hardcore players get to play Jedi?
Jedi status is not determined based on "luck." However, Jedi is considered an advanced objective to achieve within the game. Casual and hardcore players alike can reach this objective because the path is different for each player. However, it might take a casual player considerably longer to unlock a Force Sensitive character slot.
Your quote agrees with me, however you highlighted the wrong phrase. The correct part of that statement is "Casual and hardcore players alike can reach this objective"
I never said it wouldn't take longer for casual gamers to become Jedi. I simply hate it when people say "Jedi isn't for casual gamers" because everything in this game is for everyone who pays to play this game. This Dev quote supports my position.
EDIT: Besides, that FAQ is so old, much of it is completely innacurate. Let's look at a few things:
- "we will not to put in official "Jedi Trials." (What about Padawan Trials and Knight Trials?)
- "Player Jedi Masters may come up with their own requirements for those they choose to apprentice" (PC Jedi have nothing to do with other Jedi's advancement, in fact being around another Jedi is just as dangerous, visibility wise, as being around anyone else. No Apprenticeships here.)
- "We don't want lightsabers to be really easy or quick to produce, but we also don't want it to take an inordinate amount of time. According to continuity, it took Luke quite some time to build his lightsaber on Tatooine and he "failed" many attempts." (Lightsabers are crafted just like any other item in-game, so it seems they're really easy and quick to produce. The only thing is having to have a looted crystal to make it work. Guess that's what really makes them harder to produce. Wonder how many millions of credits Luke paid for his crystals?)
- "Learning how to build a double-bladed lightsaber will likely be more difficult than learning how to build a normal lightsaber...And, it may be more difficult to learn how to wield the weapon effectively...it is so rare during the original trilogy's time period." (Just another branch in the lightsaber tree.)
- "a Jedi has the knowledge necessary to maintain a lightsaber, preventing such decay." (Well, the lightsabers don't decay any more, just the crystals. Wonder when Luke had to spend more millions of credits on crystals because his decayed?)
Message Edited by DRWolfe on 12-28-2004 04:30 PM
DRWolfe wrote:
Grrrr. Jedi is meant for anyone who pays $15 a month to play this game, which I believe we all do.
Will only the extremely lucky or hardcore players get to play Jedi?
Jedi status is not determined based on "luck." However, Jedi is considered an advanced objective to achieve within the game. Casual and hardcore players alike can reach this objective because the path is different foreach player. However, it might take a casual player considerably longer to unlock a Force Sensitive character slot.
JediMasterZero wrote:
And Nohoah, you had a great post. It's too bad you couldn't have been here since Launch....you would have loved the wild speculation about what it takes to be a Jedi...with everyone around you being a noob too, it was wicked fun. No one cursed in the game because someone spread a rumor that curses get flagged in the chat dialog, and was negative-Jedi points. And tipping dancers/musicians generated positive-Jedi points, among lots of other things. Once you reacheda certain number of positive points, you'd be visited by a CSR in game posing as a new player who needed help. If you helped them and were nice about it, they unlocked your Jedi. The quest-based ideas were exhausted completely...we formed a semi-guild in the Jedi Forum such that each person would do different quests (or same quest, but different options) and see if that led to Jedi unlock. It was lots of fun, and yet extremely frustrating, not knowing how to get your FS character slot.
While I found this hilarious, it actually sounds like it might have made for a more fun path. No one knows for sure, but each person has a different path, with different things to accomplish, and helping newbies and tipping gets one there faster, while cannibalizing newbies and low-level combatants eats away at one's progress. The only thing lacking would be feedback. Imagine if after completing a particularly boring quest you were told that you feel a faint stirring of the force within you. Perhaps you discover a particular face carved into a mountain, and it inspires you to more force sensitivity. You participate in a group that kills a gorax, and you feel more in tune with the force aspects of combat. Each person would get the result from different actions, and eventually a force-enhanced skill would be unlocked. Progress would be slow, but everyone who is actually playing the game (as opposed to grinding) would enjoy the progress. Steps you should take might be altered by steps you have already taken, and they would progress in parallel rather than sequentially. You eventually unlock a new character, but you lose nothing from your original character. Your new character eventually becomes aware of a secret society of jedi all around him that he never knew existed. There is no fixed endpoint, so the progression never ends.
It is all a daydream, but it sounds like it could actually be fun. Thanks for the insight.
Message Edited by JediMasterZero on 12-29-2004 12:09 PM
Now i have said before, any force sensitive player has the ability to have force powers. they all have different skills, some healing. some awareness some combat.
again in a previous post i spoke about 5 types of jedi, but the path of jedi leads to your totalness with either darkness or good.
If you go around healing and helping to defend the weak, should you gain lightside XP? if you go around leet speaking and killing all in sundray do you gain darkside XP?
So heres my new system idea,
Keep the village the way it is, but have two new members, have a villager that has turned to the darkside, they could "encourage" players (Imperials) to chose the darkside, thus giving them a new darker village on dathomir, bottom left hand corner. where imperial sith gather. Here they do tasks, quests missions on killing "Good" light sided players. (Rebel / netural)
This can be done quite easily. as the missions / quests can be based around the galaxy and have some form of PVP missions for the players. I still believe the force sensitive players should be granted five new powers that are limited in time, effect and overall bonuses for players.
These can be,
1) Force Heal ( Heals players of all disease and mind dots)
2) Force awareness ( gives the player an increased level of threats.)
3) Force Defend (similar to a shield, gives player +5 on all defenses)
4) Force speed (gives player extra +5 burstrun efficency
5) Force aura (blinds the enemy player for 2 minutes, making them unable to hit for that time) This has weakest effectiveness.
---------------
These are simple powers im sure, all force sensitive players could have in their poesssion, after all Luke and liea and the ability to communicate over a limited range during SW. So why cant the players have this so called ability.
The role of the jedi can be catergorised in two ways, defender. Avenger, depending on your faction.
JediMasterZero wrote:
. . .Or are the Lights supposed to hunt down the Darks (and vice-versa) in an ongoing battle-royale? . . .
Jessian wrote:
Star Wars (New Hope) is currently playing behind me curtiously of ITV (UK) and its a totally different thing than this game, Luke skywalker is in his 20's, a farmer, and is Handed a lightsaber. only training, is against a robot.
I love this point. Not a single quenker slaughtered for xp. Maybe DE's could make training droids for leveling up the lower levels?
Last night I was informed that the ranged FS enhancements don't work (as mentioned on the rifleman forum.) As a bio-engineer with limited combat skills and a profession that earns xp in trees the profession cannot unlock, and professional enhancements in trees that are earned by combat, I was depending on these to get me through the long FS grind. At my current level, earning xp as I do, I calculated last night that I would have to kill over 7000 enraged rancors with my friends to unlock. Sigh, and to think I gave up ranged support to free up the xp.
I love the idea of a simple moisture farmer gradually becoming more in-tune with the force, with a combination of practice (with the droid), special training quests (as Luke did with Yoda), and gradual improvement by using the force sensitivity in daily aspects of life (as Luke continued to improve between episodes V and VI), ie. by playing the game itself.
The single most important difference between a boring progression and a fun one is the existence of intermediate rewards and successes.
glock21 wrote:I totally agree. Jedi is not attainable by the casual gamer. I pay $15.00 a month to beat my head against a brick wall. Really it is my fault. The game is fun. I just have to accept the fact that I will never make it and go on to something else. Here is a question for you. Some of these players are killing themselves to make Jedi. Once they make Jedi, what is there for them to do. The quick answer......nothing. The game does not have any content to keep players who make Jedi busy. I guess they will have to spend there time on Friday and Saturday nights figuring out what game to play next.
Jedi is attainable by a casual player, it'll just take longer. As I stated before, I am a casual gamer, getting in about 5-7.5 hours a week, with an extra bit of time here and there from a holiday or a weekend day I'm free.
I've calculated the grind to get Jedi to take anywhere from 5-8 months for a casual player who plays about as much as I do. Of course, this is 5-8 months of spending just about every moment grinding XP at the quickest rate possible and doing nothing else in the game. After making a character specifically for the grind getting him to the Village and getting his template ready, I began the actual grinding on 10/25/2004. I estimate getting my last point of FS XP somewhere around the middle of March, just about 5 and a half months of pure grinding. Has it been fun? I'd say no. At least not as much as playing my first character, when I was first exploring the game, deciding on professions, and slowly working them up. However, I have actually interacted with a number of people along the way (I like chatty solo groups to relieve the boredom, but don't let that distract you from keeping an eye on the Brandy indicator, especially when fighting mobs that DB, that one's hit me a number of times).
Anyway, my point is, Jedi is attainable by a casual player who is dedicated and doesn't mind mindlessly grinding for 5-8 months for it. That is a bit extreme, not really fun, and could have been made better, but it's what we have and I suppose works to discourage everyone from becoming a Jedi (which is what the Devs wanted). Also, once that grind is over, people say the Jedi grind is worse, but I say I will not be grinding it. It'll be just like before with my first character, as I will once again play the game and work my profession up along the way.
Oh, and JediMasterZero, Tiggs is a SHE!
Message Edited by DRWolfe on 12-29-2004 10:13 AM