Force Sensitive Archive
Thread: Constructive criticism on the FS system and ideas to fix it.
SlikWilly
Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:55 pm
#14
Grunzer you maybe right, even though it'd be the largest mistake in MMORPG history if it happens. I know I'd quit.
Azlon_Tir
Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:04 pm
#15
Ok some people missed my point about the sith, and others agreed in thier own words. I never said make all the sith easy. Just the sith that ambush you for the crystal. Level them in relation to the player's level. Not equal to, but slightly higher. maybe have them con yellow. Challenging but not impossible. And to expand on my idea of this preventing the "sit and wait" method, have them appear ONLY if you are out playing your character normaly. This would STOP people from waiting for them all together, making the ambush happen as it was intended.
I agree that it may have been a much better idea to set the timeline in a period where jedi are not as rare. Maybe, IF WE ARE LUCKY, they will make SWG2 Post RotJ as was mentioned earlier. Combine it with my idea of making FS and Jedi character progression into Training Quests that are paced slow. Force Sensitive and Jedi Training is SUPPOSED to take long, and Grinding teaches NOTHING. Make all the training have a story and involvement to it. This is how I thought it would be when they announced SWG. That to be a jedi, you would have to endure the long, involved training process and actualy LEARN your skills, rather than grind them out mindlessly.
And in reference to the Dooku comment about my credit cap idea. Dooku was not always wealthy. He left the Jedi Order and claimed his family fortune, and he used his wealth to help fund the war that his master and he created. And remember that he became a Sith, not a Jedi. And players can not become sith. It may seem shortsighted to credit cap dark jedi, but it would be FAIR, and far less problematic than other oversights in place now.
Ok then, instead of a credit cap on the dark jedi, we could do what OTHER games have done and put a huge penalty on dark force users such as severe health reduction when using the force. And extended timers for the use of specials. I imagine that if your health was reduced to 10 pts every time you used your powers as a dark jedi, you would not be happy. No dark jedi player would want that. So I think that maybe the credit cap would be the better choice.
Remember that the "Training Phases" plan would not only enrich the FS and Jedi gameplay, it would help slow the population growth because the player cant just speed through it.
I agree that it may have been a much better idea to set the timeline in a period where jedi are not as rare. Maybe, IF WE ARE LUCKY, they will make SWG2 Post RotJ as was mentioned earlier. Combine it with my idea of making FS and Jedi character progression into Training Quests that are paced slow. Force Sensitive and Jedi Training is SUPPOSED to take long, and Grinding teaches NOTHING. Make all the training have a story and involvement to it. This is how I thought it would be when they announced SWG. That to be a jedi, you would have to endure the long, involved training process and actualy LEARN your skills, rather than grind them out mindlessly.
And in reference to the Dooku comment about my credit cap idea. Dooku was not always wealthy. He left the Jedi Order and claimed his family fortune, and he used his wealth to help fund the war that his master and he created. And remember that he became a Sith, not a Jedi. And players can not become sith. It may seem shortsighted to credit cap dark jedi, but it would be FAIR, and far less problematic than other oversights in place now.
Ok then, instead of a credit cap on the dark jedi, we could do what OTHER games have done and put a huge penalty on dark force users such as severe health reduction when using the force. And extended timers for the use of specials. I imagine that if your health was reduced to 10 pts every time you used your powers as a dark jedi, you would not be happy. No dark jedi player would want that. So I think that maybe the credit cap would be the better choice.
Remember that the "Training Phases" plan would not only enrich the FS and Jedi gameplay, it would help slow the population growth because the player cant just speed through it.
Azlon_Tir
Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:17 pm
#16
I think that the best way to get this system right is to have the devs READ! A good place to start would be books like "Jedi Search", and "I, Jedi" and maybe some of the Jedi Apprentice Books. To get the jedi system right, you need to know how it works which the devs OBVIOUSLY don't. They should also play games like the Jedi Knight series. The devs that made The Episode 3 Revenge of the Sith game were required to play all the other star wars games that involved jedi. This resulted in them seeing what worked and what didn't.
A good system for the training would be that for each skill, first you learn about it, how it is used and what it does. Then you are given several practice assignments to practice using the skill and learn the best ways to use it, then you are given a series of real missions that apply all of your current skills in some way or another. When they are all completed you would return with the needed XP to learn the next skill. Once you have learned all the skills needed, you would be promoted to Jedi initiate. Then the process would begin again, but it would be geared towards Jedi knowledge, powers, skills and philosophies. The lightsaber building stage of jedi training would be awsome under this system. As you build it, your teacher would be giving a speach about the lightsabers construction, and the bond being formed between Weapon and Jedi.
The training system would be similar in structure to the FS training, but would culminate in the teacher preparing the initiate for the padawan trials, which the initiate would then embark on. Upon completion, the initiate would then be promoted to padawan.
From here,I see two good ways to handle the jedi training. Continuing the previous cycle would work. But another good method would be to partner the player with an NPC master who would still use the same basic cycle as FS and Initiate, but would accompany you on the missions in true Master/Apprentice fashion, adding to the experience of training as a Jedi. This would be the longest required training phase, maybe requiring several months to complete. Once the padawan training is complete, your NPC master would then send you to take the Knight trials. These trials as well as ALL the trials should incorporate not only combat, but a variety of subjects learned through the course of training. This would require the player to actualy pay attention to the teacher during the training.
Once the trials are passed, Knight status would be given. The player would then be given the OPTION to train an NPC Padawan of his own to knight status. Completing this task would promote the player to Jedi Master.
Some people may start asking "Well why not just make the Master for the padawan phase a player? and why not train a player padawan to earn master?"
The answer is simple. It wouldn't work out. The Player doing the teaching would have to actualy instruct the padawan in not only skills, but knowledge. The player could also not create missions for the padawan to complete. There would be just too many things that would not work right. Its best to have an NPC as the Master. And for the optional Jedi Master training, you would have an NPC Master that would dole out the missions that you would take your NPC padawan on.
Some may not like this concept, but really think about it. This is how the life of a jedi is portrayed in the books and other materials. This would also give Jedi A PURPOSE! Somthing they have been lacking since the game was created. It would slow the jedi population swell and make becoming a jedi harder but more fun.
And While I havent fully thought out the process for getting FS in the first place. I think it should be controled. Everyone who gets glowy will eventualy have the choice of Training, but will not always be accepted for training right away. Maybe they could be given a difficult trial of sorts to determine if they will be allowed to start FS training. If they fail, they will have to wait a set time period before trying again. Or maybe just have the player acceptance be at random. You will either be accepted, or told you arent quite ready to begin your training and again have to wait a set period of time before trying again. Either method could work, and would also contribute to CONTROLLING THE JEDI POPULATION!!
A good system for the training would be that for each skill, first you learn about it, how it is used and what it does. Then you are given several practice assignments to practice using the skill and learn the best ways to use it, then you are given a series of real missions that apply all of your current skills in some way or another. When they are all completed you would return with the needed XP to learn the next skill. Once you have learned all the skills needed, you would be promoted to Jedi initiate. Then the process would begin again, but it would be geared towards Jedi knowledge, powers, skills and philosophies. The lightsaber building stage of jedi training would be awsome under this system. As you build it, your teacher would be giving a speach about the lightsabers construction, and the bond being formed between Weapon and Jedi.
The training system would be similar in structure to the FS training, but would culminate in the teacher preparing the initiate for the padawan trials, which the initiate would then embark on. Upon completion, the initiate would then be promoted to padawan.
From here,I see two good ways to handle the jedi training. Continuing the previous cycle would work. But another good method would be to partner the player with an NPC master who would still use the same basic cycle as FS and Initiate, but would accompany you on the missions in true Master/Apprentice fashion, adding to the experience of training as a Jedi. This would be the longest required training phase, maybe requiring several months to complete. Once the padawan training is complete, your NPC master would then send you to take the Knight trials. These trials as well as ALL the trials should incorporate not only combat, but a variety of subjects learned through the course of training. This would require the player to actualy pay attention to the teacher during the training.
Once the trials are passed, Knight status would be given. The player would then be given the OPTION to train an NPC Padawan of his own to knight status. Completing this task would promote the player to Jedi Master.
Some people may start asking "Well why not just make the Master for the padawan phase a player? and why not train a player padawan to earn master?"
The answer is simple. It wouldn't work out. The Player doing the teaching would have to actualy instruct the padawan in not only skills, but knowledge. The player could also not create missions for the padawan to complete. There would be just too many things that would not work right. Its best to have an NPC as the Master. And for the optional Jedi Master training, you would have an NPC Master that would dole out the missions that you would take your NPC padawan on.
Some may not like this concept, but really think about it. This is how the life of a jedi is portrayed in the books and other materials. This would also give Jedi A PURPOSE! Somthing they have been lacking since the game was created. It would slow the jedi population swell and make becoming a jedi harder but more fun.
And While I havent fully thought out the process for getting FS in the first place. I think it should be controled. Everyone who gets glowy will eventualy have the choice of Training, but will not always be accepted for training right away. Maybe they could be given a difficult trial of sorts to determine if they will be allowed to start FS training. If they fail, they will have to wait a set time period before trying again. Or maybe just have the player acceptance be at random. You will either be accepted, or told you arent quite ready to begin your training and again have to wait a set period of time before trying again. Either method could work, and would also contribute to CONTROLLING THE JEDI POPULATION!!
I8TheWorm
Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:04 pm
#18
Chris92056 wrote:"So much for the promise that under the new system there would be far less grinding and more playing your character. "This is the one thing that gets me. It WAS promised.I'm going on the book as saying the currend system is NOT easy..... for the casual player. Its not hard either... Just time consuming.If i had to pick a single thing that I'd change it would be the wait between phases.Remove it....PERIOD!!!Dont have a wait....allow people to progress on their own timeline.
Sure, and watch the game turn into SWJ instead. One of the things that keeps people out of FS is that it's time consuming. If you want everyone to be jedi, play JA instead.
If you want to be an alpha class in a MMORPG, get used to the idea that it's going to be difficult, and it will take time.
Stomis
Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:26 pm
#19
The solution to FS system is to need 12 trees to unlock instead of 6 and just make them cost same skill points.
Arexen
Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:27 pm
#20
I8TheWorm wrote:
Chris92056 wrote:
"So much for the promise that under the new system there would be far less grinding and more playing your character. "
This is the one thing that gets me. It WAS promised.
I'm going on the book as saying the currend system is NOT easy..... for the casual player. Its not hard either... Just time consuming.
If i had to pick a single thing that I'd change it would be the wait between phases.
Remove it....PERIOD!!!
Dont have a wait....allow people to progress on their own timeline.
Sure, and watch the game turn into SWJ instead. One of the things that keeps people out of FS is that it's time consuming. If you want everyone to be jedi, play JA instead.
If you want to be an alpha class in a MMORPG, get used to the idea that it's going to be difficult, and it will take time.
Sadly, SWG has already turned into SWJ. The vast majority of players started playing because they wanted to be a Jedi. There really is only one way to prevent that from happening, and thats by making it as long and hard as possible. The grind really is a good method because people will not want to do it, and only the most dedicated can go for it. Unfortunately, it doesn't stop many people.
crazieag03
Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:30 pm
#21
my preference, ditch it and jedi along with it. and just so ya know, i was a jedi at one time, almost a full temp before ditching it.
only good thing to say about it, extra char on same server
Azlon_Tir
Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:21 pm
#22
/yodaSpeak
Hear you nothing that I say?
Read my posts you should, good ideas they may be.
a solution I have found, for the jedi population problem.
Eliminate the grind it will, but easy and fast it will NOT be.
Time consuming will it be. Challenge the mind AND the body it will.
But boring it will not be. Fun and interesting it will be.
Morons the devs would be, not to use my ideas.
Thought long and hard on them I have.
/endyodaSpeak
Hear you nothing that I say?
Read my posts you should, good ideas they may be.
a solution I have found, for the jedi population problem.
Eliminate the grind it will, but easy and fast it will NOT be.
Time consuming will it be. Challenge the mind AND the body it will.
But boring it will not be. Fun and interesting it will be.
Morons the devs would be, not to use my ideas.
Thought long and hard on them I have.
/endyodaSpeak
Joebob696
Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:22 am
#23
Kalis187 wrote:
i think that the system as it is now is far too easy!!
i have starteded playing again after a 10 month break in april and only need one phase shift to become a jedi!!
and i have almost all the FS xp needed only about 500k to go
i think it should be made hard, maybe by adding 1 silent profession to master because there are so many jedi and it will only get worse
i also think the jedi lose should be increased when killed by BH and npc kills should go back to giving xp lose at a reduced rate to the BH xp lose!!
Oh yeh 6 months of BORING grinding, thats EASY
eviltrandoshan04
Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:02 am
#24
does it really matter?
this is never going to be implemented because none of the devs ever read the forums or petitions such as these
and furthermore they will never cap jedi because it brings in potential buyers of the game and it would lessen sales
Message Edited by eviltrandoshan04 on 06-24-2005 06:03 AM
JeriksGod
Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:08 pm
#25
As of right now i really ahte the force conversion ratio instead of being like 1:30 make it like 1;15 which would make it somewhat more enjoyable and also only make you get master fs thing and another novice which would also save you some time grinding instead of the 6 branches which really just doesnt make sense considering if you get fs like 1day before phase change and dont complete quest what are you supposed to do then you know wait for the phase all over jsut to get the branch unlocked and thats all im saying besides im Fs TKM/Doc 58 with combat prowess and itll take me 7million xp just to get 4 branches filled not counting novices and who knows how mcuh to get 6 branches filled plus novices so the system just really needs to be changed and thats final.
Arexen
Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:19 pm
#26
Making the convertion rates better won't make it more enjoyable, just shorter and more satisfying. More enjoyable would be quest-based NON BUGGED hahahaha. But yeah something with a little more content than kill this bol, then that piket etc. etc. etc.